My point about Dorian was that I would take him over a "devout" believer any day. If the devout believer actually lived their faith in day to day life like Dorian does, then I'd be only too happy to have them as a companion.
The Imperial Chantry isn't more progressive than the southern Chantry, it's just the opposite. It's a mage supremacist Chantry. And assuming that Dorian's not inexplicably mistaken about his own country's religion, it limits the ability of women to ascend to its highest ranks just because the White Chantry does the reverse. Plus the Grand Clerics are all magisters and thus have more political power than the southern Grand Clerics.
Speaking of Dorian though, he does say he believes the Maker sent the Herald to save Thedas, just like Cassandra does.
That said, thinking about it now a devout member of the Imperial Chantry hierarchy does sound like a fascinating idea for a companion. A character like that could in theory be very different from all the Tevinter mages or Chantry members we've seen up until this point.
It will be very different because the Imperial Chantry is kind of run by the state in a sense. The Orlesian Chantry is over the Circle (or was) and is pretty autonomous... or as autonomous as an international group can get.
The Imperial Chantry is... well, stuck in a single nation that is run by the Imperial Circle. The Circles are the political parties and all the people in power, secular and religious, are pulled from the Circles.
The Imperial Chantry isn't as free to do as it will (compared to southern Chantry) since it is limited to being at the mercy of a single nation and the Circle. If the southern nations open the door to other Andrastian faiths, and the IC is able to gain ground in Nevarra, I think it would do a lot better and be in a better position to be more anti-blood magic or anti-slavery or at least more free to discuss ideas.
Then again, I get really biased and optimistic on matters of the Chantries. While I prefer the Chantry with Viv as Divine, I'm starting to prefer the Imperial Chantry since it doesn't have the issue of possibly getting its dogmas thrown out the window because of the Divine's feelings about them (Lel...).
Please, please have the IC go to Nevarra, it would as great as Tevinter! (If not better...)
Nevarra+Tevinter
Why do people have this idea that the Imperial Chantry must be less corrupt than the Southern Chantry? If anything the reverse should be true. We know that mages have all but completely reversed Hesserion's original reforms. And since the clergy is an official arm of the government it has more power than in the south. Tevinter is closer to a theocracy than any southern nation, and always has been. Religion has always had an especially exalted place in the Imperium, even in days of when the Cult of the Old Gods was the dominant religion.
I really don't see the Imperial Chantry ever making any headway in the south. Not unless one of the nations and it's people makes a complete reversal of centuries of animosity and tries to become allies with the Tevinter Imperium. And most people would see that like willingly submitting to Tevinter domination again.
And Nevarra's a pretty aggressively expansionist nation, so it's probably even less likely for them. They are probably going to see Tevinter as a potential threat or target.
I never said it was less corrupt. I mean, we know the black divine does blood magic and has assassinated people in public.
It was the Altus houses that reversed the Transfiguration, not all the mages.
I think Nevarra is a nation that would be more open to the IC than others due to it being very Andrastian and having a privileged mage class that has become central to their culture, the Mortalitasi.
The two nations can be rivals and compete, but I think the IC can work in Nevarra. I don't see where a big conflict will be if the south is okay with male clergy or mage clergy. Inquisition just makes me think the IC can actually spread if the nations allowed it to.
But how would that even work? The Imperial Chantry is interwoven with the very fabric of the society of the Imperium. Is the Imperium going to let southerners join the Magisterium? Is Nevarra going to submit to the religious authority of Tevinter magisters? Are only Mortalitasi going to be allowed to join the Chantry in Neverra?
The Imperial Chantry is tied much more closely to Tevinter than the Andrastian Chantry is tied to Orlais.
Neverra forming it's own Chantry is more likely than them joining the Tevinter one. It sounds like the Mortalitasi are pretty content as they are. It's not like the Nevarran people or their mages are hungry to suddenly abandon their own unique traditions and adopt a foreign one.
Dorian is a more honest worshipper than all those devout southern Chantry believers. He says he believes in the Maker because the alternative would be no god watching over you at all, which he finds unsettling, but he isn't constantly looking to the Maker to help him out. He also has a better moral outlook than anyone I've met in the southern Chantry. He actually follows the 5 moral codes of the Chant. He believes in the Maker, he doesn't abuse his gift of magic, he doesn't harm people weaker than himself (or anyone without cause), he doesn't lie and believes that the truth should be known; he doesn't steal.
In other words he puts to shame all the Orlesian nobility who murder each other and servants with impunity just to stay ahead in the Game and all those Chantry stalwarts who constantly encouraged my Inquisitor to lie about everything that happened and Leliana, the future Divine, whose solution to many war table missions was to lie and deceive people and encouraged murder.
Well, I have a soft spot for both him and Sera and like their takes on those beliefs.. but you make good points. I wouldn't call her as principled exactly...as he seems to be.
I excuse Leli because my romanced Warden was dead. She's emo.
As for Dorian, it has nothing to do with Tevinter. Just the individual. That place is crappy. I doubit it taught him much except what not to do (I know I'm saying this in the Tevinter thread, but whatever. 
).
I agree that Dorian is probably just a good person at heart but he was taught certain morals about things, like blood magic, that he sticks to, ironically having been instructed by his father who then broke the code. World of Thedas 2 also says that his family sent him in desperation to a small school run by the Order of Argent, known for its adherence to strict Andrastrian discipline. This has always amused me because the writers were trying to imply they sent him to a strict religious school to keep him on the straight and narrow when it is hardly clear what "Andrastrian discipline" is in the south, let alone Tevinter. There seems no real indicator of how a true Andrastrian is supposed to live given how little respect anyone seems to give to anything it says in the Chant unless it suits them. The southern Chantry practice celibacy among the clergy, although Leliana can cheerfully ignore this tradition as well, but the Imperial Chantry has never had such restrictions, seeing as the Black Divine and clerical positions are practically hereditary, unless there happens to be a violent coup at the top. It is only the Black Divine that has to be a man. Throughout the rest of the Chantry both men and women hold similar posts in all ranks and they can and do marry. Since Dorian dropped out after three months, I wouldn't have thought that would have given the Order of Argent much time to make an impression on him but I suppose it is possible they followed the same moral code as the southern Chantry and Dorian did take that much to heart before he left.
The Imperial Chantry is meant to have several additional Canticles that the southern Chantry doesn't recognise. We know about the Canticle of Silence but have yet to see these others. They venerate Hessarian instead of Drakon and have a number of different religious holidays. So it would be interesting to have a companion who can explain all these things personally. A person can be devout and actively live their faith without being likeable but it would actually make a change to have a sincerely devout companion who was a bit of fun. It can happen. Jesus liked going to parties and he was criticised for it.
Oh, I'd love to see the Imperial Chantry and how it differs from the Orlesian Chantry in the south especially because of what I've read about it such as how magic is performed openly during all services and that they claim the blackening of the Golden City was caused by the lies of the Old Gods. While they respect and honor Andraste as a human prophet with considerable magic talent, they forbid worship of her and instead focus their worship only on the Maker.
I'd love to see a chantry service in a cutscene or something. Like, not the whole thing obviously (as I assume they are prolly longer than 5 minutes), but seeing the action of one as a backdrop for a scene or a setup for the mood of an area or something? Maybe a character introduction? I'd love to see it.
Course I also want to see some Thedosian holidays in action, too. I just figure, if you are gonna make your game more cinematic, set the scenes with something that gives people a view of *life*, you know?
The Tevinter Chantry seems to focus on the human nature of Andraste, making her relatable than the Orlesian one. Not to mention the fact that they probably have more records and information about her. Being the only civilised nation at the time, they must have records about her.
No, they don't.. Sorry. They strip her humanity away and emphasize their theory that she was a mage. Like "Look at what a mage can do!" As if no one else is capable of it. It's more about them than anyone else. Even in their demise, they are ego-maniacs. And then they de-emphasize the woman who led a rebellion. Conveniently so, because she rebelled against them.
If you're just complimenting Dorian, that's cool. But he isn't Tevinter. And he'd be the first to say it.
I'd love to see a chantry service in a cutscene or something. Like, not the whole thing obviously (as I assume they are prolly longer than 5 minutes), but seeing the action of one as a backdrop for a scene or a setup for the mood of an area or something? Maybe a character introduction? I'd love to see it.
Course I also want to see some Thedosian holidays in action, too. I just figure, if you are gonna make your game more cinematic, set the scenes with something that gives people a view of *life*, you know?
Oh, I'd love to see it as a backdrop or setup. I'd love to see a theater as a backdrop or setup for similar reasons since magic is used there as well.
Tevinter has so many interesting sights to it that I'd love to see;
https://40.media.tum...6rnw3o2_500.jpg
Something always bothered me about the Chantry. They call spirits the 'first children of the Maker' yet take little time to study or understand them. Then again demons interact more frequently with mortals and few are ones for meaningful conversations.
There isn't much to understand, by their own teaching's standards though. The Spirits bored the Maker, for basically being single minded. The Chantry has him creating mortals to be a more creative species. Little "Makers", if you will. Of course, that blew up in his face too.
Of course we now know that Spirits existed as the same time as the Ancient Elves in the time before the Veil.
Of course we now know that Spirits existed as the same time as the Ancient Elves in the time before the Veil.
Yeah, that's why I just put it as the Chantry's teaching... The truth is more complicated, whatever it is. The Chantry version was neat while it lasted though.
Either way, I think it's somewhat borrowed from the Bible. There are a few passages like some Psalm 82, that says, "You are gods". And Jesus quotes it later in the NT. It's also meant to place a responsibility on humans. To live up to a higher calling. I think this especially inspired the Chant of Light in DA. It's kind of the heart of Andraste's anger and why the Maker left. That people were meant to be better.
When a product is faulty do you blame the product or the person who made it? That is my major beef with 'Creator' deities. The Maker made the spirits, but instead of helping them he didn't even bother and just kicked them out of his house. Then he made humans, who didn't even know he existed and expected them to start worshiping him on the spot. Talk about narcissism.
When a product is faulty do you blame the product or the person who made it? That is my major beef with 'Creator' deities. The Maker made the spirits, but instead of helping them he didn't even bother and just kicked them out of his house. Then he made humans, who didn't even know he existed and expected them to start worshiping him on the spot. Talk about narcissism.
He didn't expect worship in the Chant though. That was one reason he was annoyed with spirits. Their singlemindedness and praise.
So he doesn't want worship, yet throws a hissyfit when humans abandon him, and expressly commands that everyone worship him before he comes back to clean up the mess he helped make?
Man was created in God's image, it says so right back in Genesis: "Let us make man in our image and likeness....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female, he created them". Basically we lost the perfect image at the first sin and so are working our way back to recovering it. Jesus was the example of what we should be as the perfect human being.
It is interesting that in the Book of Enoch, an old apocryphal Jewish book, the angels are jealous of mankind when God creates them, particularly when he suggests that they should serve them and Lucifer leads the rebellion. There is also more about how the angels fell in love with the daughters of men and had children with them. This bit even made it into the Bible. These were apparently named the Nephilim and these demi-gods were heroes of old, men of renown, but then they seemed to get corrupted and were washed away in the Flood like everyone else.
So if elves end up being the hybrid of spirits and human beings, you know where they got their ideas from.
So he doesn't want worship, yet throws a hissyfit when humans abandon him, and expressly commands that everyone worship him before he comes back to clean up the mess he helped make?
I don't know if he wants worship now. Maybe I missed something. You could be right. I know that Andrastre (or the Chantry) said to spread the Chant, but that could mean a lot of things. The Orlesians take it literally and recite the words all the time. But maybe spreading the chant is just living up to some of it's principles. "Champions of the just" and all that.
I don't know if he wants worship now. Maybe I missed something. You could be right. I know that Andrastre (or the Chantry) said to spread the Chant, but that could mean a lot of things. The Orlesians take it literally and recite the words all the time. But maybe spreading the chant is just living up to some of it's principles. "Champions of the just" and all that.
Gods are weird. I at least demons and devils are honest in their evil.
Man was created in God's image, it says so right back in Genesis: "Let us make man in our image and likeness....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female, he created them". Basically we lost the perfect image at the first sin and so are working our way back to recovering it. Jesus was the example of what we should be as the perfect human being.
It is interesting that in the Book of Enoch, an old apocryphal Jewish book, the angels are jealous of mankind when God creates them, particularly when he suggests that they should serve them and Lucifer leads the rebellion. There is also more about how the angels fell in love with the daughters of men and had children with them. This bit even made it into the Bible. These were apparently named the Nephilim and these demi-gods were heroes of old, men of renown, but then they seemed to get corrupted and were washed away in the Flood like everyone else.
So if elves end up being the hybrid of spirits and human beings, you know where they got their ideas from.
But didn't Elves come first? Or was there some proto-human ancestor that Elves and humans share? The ones who interacted with spirits became Elves and the ones who didn't became human?
Man may have been made in the image of God, but we are thankfully nothing like Him/Her/It.
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