15927 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

"God is love.  Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them."    I'd say we are not enough like God.   That's the whole point about us being imperfect.    Don't look at the followers of God; we are constantly letting him down.   Look at Jesus.   He said it himself "I am the way (to God)".   The first followers did not call themselves Christians (other people did that).   They were followers of The Way."

[The Ascendant]

Can we please talk about Tevinter again? Chances are if this religious talk continues, a flame war will erupt and this thread will be closed and we'll have to start all over again just like the Elf one.

[Gervaise]

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.   Please don't shut this thread down.   Let's get back to Tevinter.   I think I've asked this question before but it wont do to ask again.   If you have the alliance with the Qun, then after Trespasser the Leaders are disowning the Viddasala (typical) and saying everything is still good, plus would the Divine like to assist them in their war with Tevinter.  Can you believe the cheek of them!   Still, what do you think the outcome of that will be.   I'm thinking that Divine Victoria will continue to sit on the fence, which will probably be sufficient for the Qun because at least she isn't helping Tevinter.   Still do you think there is any possibility the Divine would consider actually joining forces with the Qun?

[The Ascendant]

The Qunari are just stalling for time. For all their arrogance and illusions of supremcy, they can't fight the combined might of two Chantry's, with it's Templars, Mages and armies of the faithful. By disavowing the Viddasala, is a classic black ops. If they succeeded then the Qun would have benefited, but since it was a 'rogue and unsanctioned operation' then they hope to try and get some time to focus on Tevinter. For all their differences the Tevinter and Orlesian Chantry still have more in common then the Qun. Co-operation happened in the past, against the Blight and Qunari Wars, but with southern Thedas recovering from the Mage-Templar War, Orlesian Civil War and the Breach and War against the Elder One they will not have the resources or enthusiasm to commit to another war. The Chantry and the 'disbanded' Inquisition will be the only real help that Tevinter will get, unofficially of course. It's essentially a choice between the Devil  you know and the Devil you don't.

[Gervaise]

There's still that business of the Llomerryn Accord though.   The Qunari have broken it twice now in the space of 10 years but have wormed their way out of responsibility.   Then they have an official alliance with the Inquisition that they have now extended to the Divine, the Chantry and any forces they happen to have, disbanded or not.  Then they specifically ask for aid.    As I say, I would think that the Divine would be wise just to stall for time over this but what if they pressed her?   It is a different situation to in the past, when there was no peace treaty and no alliance.   Rivain might not want to get embroiled in the conflict and would be afraid of being invaded by the Qun if she refused.     I think a lot could depend on the nature of the war in Tevinter as well.    In my mind, they engineer a series of slave uprisings to coincide with their attack, so Tevinter is even more off balance and unable to retaliate properly.    However, if the uprising was successful in somewhere like Vyrantium, Solas or somewhere even further south, putting it under the control of the Qun, then that brings it much closer to home.   It could be a tricky diplomatic situation trying not to get involved if that was the case.

[The Ascendant]

Chalking the Viddasala as a rogue zealot is not too difficult, we deal with them all the time in Dragon Age, and the war with the Tevinter doesn't merit a response officially, the Imperium was the only country who didn't sign the Accord. While the rest of Thedas may be content to let the Imperium deal with the Qunari, realistically, they will not allow it to spread. Containment is the most they can hope for. Remember that the rest of Thedas is either Chantry worshipers, depends on feudalism and tolerates magic, which is all anathema to the Qun. Coexistence is simply impossible, neither the Chantry nor the Qun can tolerate one another on basic principle. The only way to retaliate against the Qunari would be to invade, which is impossible as their navy is superior to the rest of Thedas. Alternatively their few settlements in the north could be destroyed, but they are so few that it would be cost effective. The best we can do is support our allies in Tevinter. Not to mention that the chaos of the war is a perfect distraction for the Dread Wolf to further his schemes. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The Qunari are heavy on the denial. The Arishok fails, so he wasn't approved in his actions under the Qun. The Viddasala fails, we hear the same. No Qunari are lost as Tal-Vashoth, because anyone that would leave the Qun was never truly a Qunari. Each gender is best in specific roles, so those that don't fit must not be their biological gender. It's all mental gymnastics to them. They have a clever way to make it so they're never wrong. I think what we'll find when we go north is that the Qunari live in loopholes. It's what we see more and more from them. They present themselves as living by the hard line of the Qun, but I think what's probably more true is that they twist it to a far greater extent than people expect.

 

I don't think the Divine will help the Qunari. It would clash too hard with an Inquisition that isn't allied with them. I also just don't think anyone between Leliana, Cassandra or Vivienne is dumb enough to not see through their crap. I don't believe any of them would think there was anything to gain in helping the Qunari. They all know the Qunari will never stop at just Tevinter. 

[TevinterSupremacist]

 They have a clever way to make it so they're never wrong.

They don't have to not be wrong. They just have to make nice blood sacrifices.

[Daerog]

But how would that even work? The Imperial Chantry is interwoven with the very fabric of the society of the Imperium. Is the Imperium going to let southerners join the Magisterium? Is Nevarra going to submit to the religious authority of Tevinter magisters? Are only Mortalitasi going to be allowed to join the Chantry in Neverra?

The Imperial Chantry is tied much more closely to Tevinter than the Andrastian Chantry is tied to Orlais.

Neverra forming it's own Chantry is more likely than them joining the Tevinter one. It sounds like the Mortalitasi are pretty content as they are. It's not like the Nevarran people or their mages are hungry to suddenly abandon their own unique traditions and adopt a foreign one.

The religious ideas and dogma can spread without the secular politics.

Grand Clerics can be a part of the magisterium and have religious authority, and Nevarrans can accept the religious authority without the political part.

This can be seen in real life history where one can look at the Papal State, the Eastern Orthodox, and countries (like France) that had clergy in government and the religion could still spread to other nations, even rival nations.

I would like to see southern and Imperial Chantry in Nevarra, it would make it a good setting.

[IHaveReturned1999]

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." I'd say we are not enough like God. That's the whole point about us being imperfect. Don't look at the followers of God; we are constantly letting him down. Look at Jesus. He said it himself "I am the way (to God)". The first followers did not call themselves Christians (other people did that). They were followers of The Way."

If there's a god....

[IHaveReturned1999]

Yeah, I have Aspergers, although I usually don't say anything about it due to the fact that I don't like being treated any differently though.

Mmmmmmm..... That explains a lot.

[Red of Rivia]

[GoldenGail3]

Mmmmmmm.....

What's that suppose to mean?    

[raging_monkey]

What's that suppose to mean?

gail let it go. Cause of he says what I know he's saying the real monkey will come out lol

[Hellion Rex]

I'd be interested in seeing an actual Imperial Chantry service, with maybe using it as an intro to a quest or new companion. In truth, it'd be cool to have an Imperial Chantry priest be a companion. I'd love to pick his brain on some of that stuff.

[raging_monkey]

Can priests fight? Or just... I'll shut up now.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think it would be really cool if we started in/heavily focused on Seheron, since it's such a mixed culture. Also, because I want a Fog Warrior party member more than literally any other northern faction I've heard about so far. Second is a genuine Tal-Vashoth. Not a wishy-washy one like Iron Bull, but someone that grew up in the Qun and has in depth criticisms of it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The religious ideas and dogma can spread without the secular politics.

Grand Clerics can be a part of the magisterium and have religious authority, and Nevarrans can accept the religious authority without the political part.

This can be seen in real life history where one can look at the Papal State, the Eastern Orthodox, and countries (like France) that had clergy in government and the religion could still spread to other nations, even rival nations.

I would like to see southern and Imperial Chantry in Nevarra, it would make it a good setting.

 

But for that to happen the Imperial Chantry would have to drastically change. Imperial Grand Clerics do have political power not just religious authority. Within the institution of the Black Chantry, political and religious power can't really be separated without extremely radical reforms. Perhaps the most radical reforms ever. Even the switch from the Cult of the Old Gods to the Cult of the Maker, while a massive and traumatic change, still involved a new religion being adapted into an old religious system.

 

And I doubt the political circumstances would let the Imperial Chantry gain much headway, to say nothing of centuries of fear and distrust of both Tevinter itself and their Chantry. 

 

Presently, Nevarran Grand Clerics in Nevarra are the religious authority in the nation. Wouldn't granting equivalent religious authority to rival foreign nobles actually be to the detriment of Nevarra's privileged mage class? That would give them less influence and power, not more.

[IHaveReturned1999]

gail let it go. Cause of he says what I know he's saying the real monkey will come out lol

I got a monkey on my back I can't shake 'em.

[raging_monkey]

I got a monkey on my back I can't shake 'em.

It's called being a coocoocaine addict

[IHaveReturned1999]

It's called being a coocoocaine addict

Is that the best you got?!

[Daerog]

Can priests fight? Or just... I'll shut up now.

Well, the Black Divine assassinated someone in public, so...

But for that to happen the Imperial Chantry would have to drastically change. Imperial Grand Clerics do have political power not just religious authority. Within the institution of the Black Chantry, political and religious power can't really be separated without extremely radical reforms. Perhaps the most radical reforms ever. Even the switch from the Cult of the Old Gods to the Cult of the Maker, while a massive and traumatic change, still involved a new religion being adapted into an old religious system.

And I doubt the political circumstances would let the Imperial Chantry gain much headway, to say nothing of centuries of fear and distrust of both Tevinter itself and their Chantry.

Presently, Nevarran Grand Clerics in Nevarra are the religious authority in the nation. Wouldn't granting equivalent religious authority to rival foreign nobles actually be to the detriment of Nevarra's privileged mage class? That would give them less influence and power, not more.

Not all clerics have political authority, if I remember the make up of the IC and Magisterium correctly.

The political structure in TI would not need to change, there will just be Nevarran Imperial Grand Clerics as well that see over their own... I'll just say "diocese" since I don't know the Andrastian equivalent term.

The Nevarran Imperial Chantry would/could just be like the Orlesian Chantry there, it isn't central to politics and doesn't run the nation. Certainly the IC teaches that mages should be able to govern, but if the law says no, the law says no. It can still function in Nevarra and Circle mages can be clergy just like the Divine can be a mage.

Rivain has three major faiths, so it isn't impossible in Thedas for a nation to have multiple faiths, but the IC and OC would fit together better than the OC, Qun, and animism in Rivain.

Even if Nevarra and TI go to war or have some conflict, it would be no different than Orlais fighting Nevarra (or real history Papal State fighting neighbors).

No one would lose power, but there would be more mages in religious positions in Nevarra... the OC would lose influence, true, but it already lost political influence in Inquisition.

Edit: As for the distrust, it is there, but in a much lesser degree in Nevarra than elsewhere. The Mortalitasi were started by a vint, and the King was cool having a Vint advisor... who turned out to be a villainous maleficarum, but the fact he had a vint advisor in the first place shows Nevarra is not as anti-Tevinter as others, even though there is tension between the two nations.

Still, if a dwarf can evangelize in Orzammar, I don't see why a IC missionary can't evangelize if the Nevarran authorities allowed it.

[raging_monkey]

I was refereincing bad habit priests do it was methodical lol

[Gervaise]

To understand how much reform is possible in any country you have to appreciate why it is set up as it is in the first place.    Religion is no different.   Was pondering on this one last night with regard to Thedas; my alternative to counting sheep.   Leaving aside the other races, let's concentrate on humans.  

 

Originally there were a number of different tribes who were probably much like the Avaar today.   Each had their own person gods and there might also be gods that were patronised by several tribes but then it was a case of trying to get the god to support you over the others.   DW claims that the Neromenians originally did worship the Maker, but this was likely as simply the Creator god of the world, who since he had created everything liked to maintain a neutrality with regard to getting involved in day to day problems.   If you go by the Chant this changed when the Neromenians wanted to do a bit of empire building.   Realising that this might required a bit more clout than his local deity could give him, this king asked his Auger to consult the Maker whether he would back his war effort.   He got a reply in the negative.  Naturally the king was not happy with this but another Augar, one Thalsian, said he had been in contact with a god who could promise victory.   All they had to do was reject the Maker and make a burned offering of various animals to this god.  "Done", said the king and thus the worship of the Old Gods was born.   Now the Neromenians had a belief that their heroes who died in battle would be reborn as dragons.   Any spirit could see this fact in their minds.   So whoever this "god" was it might well be that it latched onto the name of a former hero of the tribe, Dumat, as his persona.   The assistance he gave was in the form of a tame dragon.  Whether this was actually possessed by a spirit, like Hakkon, or simply Thalsian controlled a normal dragon with blood magic, on the advice of "Dumat", the end result is the same.   The king got his advantage in battle.    As the Neromenians spread, so would worship of the Old Gods, particularly as another tribe got the assistance of a "different" Old God, again if they would reject the Maker.     

 

So as the Imperium developed, it would seem that the reason they got 7 Old Gods, is that either it was the same god in seven different guises, but using earthly dragons as avatars, or the Old Gods reached some sort of accommodation seeing as they were pretty much equal in power.     Their worship then became the official religion of the Imperium because it is important to be able to control your subjects' access to divine assistance.   You don't want them going off and seeking assistance elsewhere.  The priesthood makes sure they don't and anyone discovered doing so is killed.  When Hessarian decided to throw in his lot with the Maker, no doubt because he did want to purge his political enemies, it necessitated taking down all the Altus and the priesthood associated with the Old Gods.  This was made easier because the Old Gods hadn't been talking to them for years, so it was essentially Hessarian (may be even backed by a faith spirit) against other mages.   The principle of having an official religion still applied though.   You can't have people running around and worshipping gods not part of your official cult.  It makes control of the masses more difficult.     May be the primitive animist gods of individual tribes would not be seen as much of a threat but major deities would.

 

Drakon worked to exactly the same principle when he destroyed all the animist cults and the alternative Andrastrian ones.   He wanted to unify the tribes and build himself an empire.    For this he needed an official religion that he could control.  He needed to keep "things simple".   Naturally he wasn't going to look north to the old enemy for Divine guidance.   However, he could look to them for inspiration.   So the southern Chantry was born.   It is noticeable how initially the Imperial Chantry seemed to defer to the southern one.    I'm not sure quite why this should be unless they did feel that his efforts in the 2nd Blight indicated some divine favour.   They certainly made some changes initially to their Chantry to keep his one appeased but later changed their minds, presumably because having a doctrine that calls magic a curse and a corrupting influence on the world really isn't going to last in a country that for the majority of its history has venerated mages.  I cannot believe that this was ever part of Hessarian's doctrine when he set up his Chantry, unless he had a serious case of self hatred.      Anyway, I don't think the Orlesian Chantry and the Imperial Chantry could ever really co-exist peacefully because of the politics involved.    One or the other would have to seriously lose any influence over the population at large.    If Nevarra were conquered or incorporated into the Imperium, then they would expect them to follow the Imperial Chantry     This would not be such a problem as for other nations because of the origins of Mortalitasi but it would have to have the backing of the monarchy and the ruling elite to pull it off and I don't see it happening so long as the aristocracy in Nevarra are largely non-mages.    There is a reason why both Tevinter and Orlais had their Chantry founded not by Andraste herself but by the ruler of an empire and someone who wanted to be.  

 

The reason multiple faiths work in somewhere like Rivain is that it has never really been wholly controlled by anyone, and positioned as it is on the fringes, it is not seen as important enough to worry about.    Whatever faith the ruling family adopt at any particular time might be the "official" religion.   There would be one religion for the urban elite and another out in the rural areas but the peasants seemed happy enough not to interfere in politics so they were allowed to keep their old ways.   Apparently even the Qun thought it expedient to let them do so, even though they generally wipe out local deities on principle.  

 

Another aspect of control is the fact that both Tevinter and Orlais attribute the position of the elite to divine providence.    Magic is the gift of the Maker to the Altus in the north, so they can use it for the good of their subjects and thus to challenge this assumption is an insult to the Maker.   Down south the nobles of Orlais rule by Divine Right, that gives the Chevaliers in particular the licence to do as they please.   A low born person might be fortunate to rise up to their ranks through the support of these divinely appointed overlords but rebellion is unthinkable.   It is not only a crime against the State but an affront to the Maker.   I realise now why the apparently liberal Divine Justinia practically ordered Celene to go and put down the rebellion in Halamshiral.    It was never about justice for the elves, it was all about not undermining the authority that is invested in both the institutions of the State and the Chantry by the Maker.    The elves of Halamshiral were heretics and apostates and so needed destroying.   Could also be why Celene wasn't content with just killing the rebels but burned them all.   Very symbolic.

[The Baconer]

I would like to see another Transfiguration, possibly even bloodied than before, followed by a type of "reformation": reworking of the Chantry as an institution that is uniquely Tevinter. A "Hessarianism" to clash with conventional Andrastianism.

Examples: the office of Divine is discontinued. The position is branded as an originally Orlesian idea, utilized to pursue Orlesian interests.

Overall, I'd like to see something that is by all means legitimate in the way of faith and worship of the Maker, but still at odds with the established Chantry of the South... possibly enough to threaten the current institution on a way it hasn't been before. Might other nations re-asses their participation in a traditionally Orlesian-centric institution?