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[Nocte ad Mortem]

I realize there will be Andrastrian characters in DA4, but I hope there's not a big focus on Andrastrianism and the Chantry in the main plot, honestly. I don't want a huge part of the plot being restructuring the Chantry, or learning about the intricate differences between the North and South Chantry. At least, I don't want it to get more focus than learning about other factions in the area, religious or non-religious. I felt like Inquisition overloaded on Chantry stuff and, honestly, it's just not that interesting to me. The Andrastrian religion is, imo, pretty bland in comparison to other things going on. I'd rather learn about the Fog Dancers, Mortalitasi, the truth about the Qun up close, visit Kal Sharok and find out how they survived so long, learn more about the Titans and Evanuris, learn what the Old Gods really are and what worship of them looked like in Tevinter, etc. There's so many groups that sound really interesting that have been barely touched and we've already gotten so much focus on the Chantry. It's not like I expect the Chantry not to come up at all, but I'd rather it not be a huge focus with a ton of detail and choices concerning it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not all clerics have political authority, if I remember the make up of the IC and Magisterium correctly.

The political structure in TI would not need to change, there will just be Nevarran Imperial Grand Clerics as well that see over their own... I'll just say "diocese" since I don't know the Andrastian equivalent term.

The Nevarran Imperial Chantry would/could just be like the Orlesian Chantry there, it isn't central to politics and doesn't run the nation. Certainly the IC teaches that mages should be able to govern, but if the law says no, the law says no. It can still function in Nevarra and Circle mages can be clergy just like the Divine can be a mage.

Rivain has three major faiths, so it isn't impossible in Thedas for a nation to have multiple faiths, but the IC and OC would fit together better than the OC, Qun, and animism in Rivain.

Even if Nevarra and TI go to war or have some conflict, it would be no different than Orlais fighting Nevarra (or real history Papal State fighting neighbors).

No one would lose power, but there would be more mages in religious positions in Nevarra... the OC would lose influence, true, but it already lost political influence in Inquisition.

Edit: As for the distrust, it is there, but in a much lesser degree in Nevarra than elsewhere. The Mortalitasi were started by a vint, and the King was cool having a Vint advisor... who turned out to be a villainous maleficarum, but the fact he had a vint advisor in the first place shows Nevarra is not as anti-Tevinter as others, even though there is tension between the two nations.

Still, if a dwarf can evangelize in Orzammar, I don't see why a IC missionary can't evangelize if the Nevarran authorities allowed it.

 

WoT says on page 125 "The grand clerics and the Imperial Divine all occupy seats in the Magisterium." It also says all Revered Mothers, Revered Fathers and Grand Clerics are members of the Tevinter Circles of Magi because it's impossible to rise to prominence in the Black Chantry without belonging to them.

[Hellion Rex]

WoT says on page 125 "The grand clerics and the Imperial Divine all occupy seats in the Magisterium." It also says all Revered Mothers, Revered Fathers and Grand Clerics are members of the Tevinter Circles of Magi because it's impossible to rise to prominence in the Black Chantry without belonging to them.

Pretty sure they disavow their given Circle once they become part of the Chantry, though I certainly agree that it's due to their Circles that they rose to prominence.

[Gervaise]

The Imperial Divine hasn't always been male either, just the majority have been.   However, Dorian is probably right and as relations with the southern Chantry got progressively worse after all those Exalted Marches, they started to elect men on principle.   

 

I haven't found anything to say that clerics are required to disavow their home Circle once they join the Chantry.   On the contrary it states that all reverend mothers and fathers and Grand Clerics are members of one of the Circles.   They are mages so why wouldn't they keep contact with their Circles and be a part of them?    As it says, whilst Soporati can technically still be a member of the clergy, it is now very difficult for them to rise beyond its lowest levels.   Circles in Tevinter are open institutions, like universities.   The mages may not spend much time there because of their clerical duties but they are still entitled to if they wish.   It why the system in Tevinter sounds so interesting, because it is so different in its attitude to magic and make up from the south.  

 

The Orlesian Chantry gets mixed up in politics; it is simply that they don't seem to carry as much weight with the ruling class as they once did. Even then, I don't think the Divine ever had the same influence outside Orlais as they did in it.    When the Divine called an Exalted March I think other nations only contributed if they thought it was in their political interests to do so.  So according to Giselle only Orlais actually took part in the Exalted March on the Dales because other nations probably didn't want Orlais to get any bigger but wouldn't support the elves because they didn't want to encourage retaliation against them, plus the Divine had been issuing all sorts of negative propaganda about the elves.   The Exalted March on Starkhaven was supported because it was removing Tevinter itself from power there.   No one wanted them getting a foothold again.   Ditto the Exalted Marches on Tevinter, it was in everyone's interest to try and push back their borders and even conquer them, because they could share out the spoils.   The Exalted March against the Qunari speaks for itself.    However, I certainly think the Divine would have something to say if the Imperial Chantry started operating on her patch and would get the support of the nobility throughout Thedas because they wouldn't want to lose their power to mages either.   It is not about faith in the Maker, it is about politics pure and simple.  

 

By contrast, the Black Divine is very much engaged at the forefront of politics and carries immense power, probably only second to the Archon and that may only be for appearances sake.   If the Grand Clerics and Black Divine all sit in the Magisterium then provided he keeps his clergy on side, he has a ready made voting lobby.   The current Black Divine is particularly powerful because he had a successful coup against the previous  Black Divine, which took out most of the leading clergy and his chief supporters outside the Chantry on the Magisterium.    He probably managed this because he had invited a certain Seeker Lambert to join his team in ferreting out corruption and of course, Lambert, wasn't part of the political scene in Tevinter, so not liable to corruption by Urien's enemies.   He had been promised by Urien that their actions would lead to reform in Tevinter and then, guess what, once in power nothing happened.  Finally Lambert discovered that Urien and his allies had been blood mages all along, which made Lambert somewhat disillusioned with mages in power and made him a hard line enforcer down south as a result.   So anyone wanting to reform Tevinter is going to have to get both the secular Magisters and the clergy on side.   I'm not saying it can't be done but it would take a very astute politician to achieve that aim and not get corrupted by the system in the process.    Spear heading a successful defence of the Imperium against Qunari aggression might do the trick.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I feel like the discrepancy between Dorian and Wot when it comes to The Black Divine being either "always" or "usually" male must be a mix up on the writers' part. That's a fairly simple fact that both World of Thedas and Dorian should probably get right, so while it could be a case of unreliable in universe from Dorian, a mistake from either his or WoT's writers seems more likely to me.

[Gervaise]

It does actually make sense that back in the past the post of Black Divine was open to either but then they did start to want to distinguish themselves from the south.   Dorian is more likely to be the one not fully acquainted with the facts here, since he is not overly interested in the workings of the Chantry.  He may have asked someone, possibly his father, why don't we have female Divines and got the answer that he passed on.   Then talking with female Grand Clerics he would get the idea that they weren't happy about it either and when he asked why they didn't do something about it, got the rather sarcastic response, "because that is how its always been done".  It is not that much of a contradiction if in recent history the Black Divine has always been a man.  

 

I suppose it is a bit difficult to work out exactly what might have been the case because when first set up the Archon filled both roles and I'm not sure but isn't the Archon always male?  Or may be it just seems that way.   Before the Imperium proper women could be High Queen of Tevinter and women could be High priestesses of the Old Gods, so Tevinter wasn't an inherently patriarchal society.     If there had been a female Archon between Heassarian and the head of state surrendering the role of head of the Imperial Chantry to appease the southern Chantry, then it was likely true there have been female Imperial Divines, even if they had been male ever since they fell out with the south.   It is something I'd like explained a bit more if women can't aspire to the two leading political posts in Tevinter.     Just saying it is because of tradition doesn't seem borne out by the history of the place.

 

Dorian doesn't always seem terribly informed on things.   He was really upset at learning about Corypheus being true but seemed to suggest that no one in Tevinter believed the stuff about the assault on the Black City.  "It wasn't us."    However, their Chantry was set up by Hessarian and he wrote the Canticle of Silence.  If anything it was he who flagged up to the whole world that Tevinter was responsible for the Blights.   The southern Chantry might have erased it from their Chant by decree of the Divine that it was political propaganda but you would think that would be even more reason the Imperial Chantry would be determined to retain it.   It was written by their founder Hessarian.  Unless, of course, they saw it as convenient to be able to take out such a damning Canticle to absolve them from responsibility.    However, Hessarian makes it clear it was not the fault of the Archon or the mages of Tevinter generally but the corrupt priesthood of the Old Gods, led by the Conductor of Silence.   Even so, even if it had been removed, you think a scholar like Dorian would know that such a Canticle existed, so when asked who do your people think was responsible, might have mentioned that Hessarian always said it was Corypheus.     (In Latin Coryphaeus = leader, so the leader of the orchestra would be the conductor, hence the Conductor of Silence taking the name Corypheus).

[The Ascendant]

Curious how Tevinter, both politically, religiously and socially views inter species romance. Considering their views on LGBT characters, I going to imagine worse than Orlais. Imagine hypothetically that my Male Tevinter Mage PC gets involved with a female elf, how would people react. Not trying to shock or draw attention just genuinely curious.

[Daerog]

WoT says on page 125 "The grand clerics and the Imperial Divine all occupy seats in the Magisterium." It also says all Revered Mothers, Revered Fathers and Grand Clerics are members of the Tevinter Circles of Magi because it's impossible to rise to prominence in the Black Chantry without belonging to them.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't have WoT on me at the time I wrote that.

Ya, the Circles are pretty much the political and religious power in Tevinter. I'm probably being a little wishy in wanting the IC to branch out more and maybe be able to grow outside Altus influence.

If they did branch out, away from Imperial Circles, then there would be more clergy taken from southern Circles (or College), and while all the Grand Clerics would first be exported from TI, down the line there could be a Nevarran cleric with enough influence to become a Grand Cleric in Nevarra. Of course, as they are in Nevarra, they wouldn't hold seats in the Magisterium, even the exported ones, as they are in different regions/dioceses, but they would still hold religious influence in the form of Exalted Councils or whatever.


Edit: Even though I am talking about this, I do not want this in DA4. I would like DA4 to have more political intrigue and possibly a war with the Qunari... with like a mission or two in the background involving Solas or his plans.

[Daerog]

Curious how Tevinter, both politically, religiously and socially views inter species romance. Considering their views on LGBT characters, I going to imagine worse than Orlais. Imagine hypothetically that my Male Tevinter Mage PC gets involved with a female elf, how would people react. Not trying to shock or draw attention just genuinely curious.

If the elf is a mage, it would probably be viewed like a southern noble marrying an elf. Edgy and outside the norm, but possibly not the end of the house if the elf is a good mage.

Not a mage? You'd probably be viewed as a fool who is ruining his house's bloodline.

So... kind of an inverse of the south, where south wants less magic and Tevinter wants more.

My guess, anyway.

[The Ascendant]

Thanks for the info. I've always had a soft spot for female Elven Mages.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Curious how Tevinter, both politically, religiously and socially views inter species romance. Considering their views on LGBT characters, I going to imagine worse than Orlais. Imagine hypothetically that my Male Tevinter Mage PC gets involved with a female elf, how would people react. Not trying to shock or draw attention just genuinely curious.

I think it's just that Altus are expected to marry only an opposite gender individual in order to produce the right kind of heirs. I'm sure a family like Dorian's would freak out if their son or daughter was going to mix non-human blood into the lineage. That might even be worse than them refusing to marry, or running off with someone of their same gender, honestly. I would say definitely so, if the family had more than one child. Consider that the Altus record their lineage for hundreds of years. That mark would always be there, basically. I think it could easily be seen as worse than just not having kids. If it's a same sex relationship or doesn't produce children, then I think it's probably not that much different, though I could definitely see them having extra bias against Qunari.

 

But they've said the problem is just with Atlus, because of how they obsess about bloodlines. I doubt it would be an issue to slaves or basically anyone that wasn't already a part of the upper class, like Dorian was. It isn't really a moral thing in Tevinter. They don't care if you have sex with the same gender, as long as you produce heirs and go through with the image of heterosexual marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have a lot of elven affairs with slaves and such in the same way. 

[The Ascendant]

I'm curious how hostilities arose between Nevarra and Tevinter. Wouldn't they have more immediate concerns.

[Gervaise]

I think you are right and an elf wouldn't be seen as suitable marriage material because you are not gaining anything political by the match.   If they were a really talented mage you might just be able to get away with it, particularly among the Laetans, but the Altus are really proud of their bloodlines.   Besides you could still keep them as your mistress and have children with them.   If those children turned out to be mages, then you could recognise them as part of your family if you so wished as they won't look like elves.   Then if your official wife didn't produce any heirs or, Maker forbid, they weren't mages, then the elf bloodied child might move up the pecking order.  They might even prove useful if you wanted to get some Laetan family on side for political support, so you offer the elf bloodied one in marriage (but keep the actual parentage secret) because you aren't actually polluting the Altus bloodlines with them.   

[vertigomez]

Curious how Tevinter, both politically, religiously and socially views inter species romance. Considering their views on LGBT characters, I going to imagine worse than Orlais. Imagine hypothetically that my Male Tevinter Mage PC gets involved with a female elf, how would people react. Not trying to shock or draw attention just genuinely curious.

I almost always do interracial relationships in these games, so I'm definitely interested in this! Considering how appalled the nobles were at the insinuation that Celene had an elven lover, and Gaspard has people who compare having sex with an elf to bestiality, and Vaughan happily abuses elven women despite calling them "pets" and generally being the absolute scum of the earth... heck, even Merrill and Fenris question Hawke on the matter. I can't imagine a male human Altus choosing an elven woman for his paramour would ever go over well with his family. Or high society. At best, they'd demand she'd be a side piece.

(Luckily the protagonist runs on PC immunity power, sooo you can pretty much do whatever you want.)

Speaking of, there's this interesting little blurb about Mae and Thorold in WoT2 that might shed some light on the situation: "It's unimaginable. This woman flies in the face of every tradition we hold dear, and rather than turned out of the Magisterium as she deserves, she is now welcomed! To top it off, I understand she's now promised her hand in marriage to a status-grubbing dwarf, of all things."

I think dwarf/human pairings probably have it easier than most other pairings (the biggest knock against dwarves in human society is probably fertility and the fact that they're percieved as "greedy" or in this case status-grubbing). Human/elf pairings obviously have it rough, anybody with a qunari is gonna have it rough, and I'm sure non-human pairings (like dwarf/elf or qunari/elf) probably aren't even on most peoples' radar. Dwarves have a special place in Tevinter society, but they're not mages!

[raging_monkey]

Curious if its even possible to breed a ox with a mother race

[Andromelek]

Dude, forget about the Altus/Elven romance, an Altus/Qunari romance would be far more funny to see.

[vertigomez]

Dude, forget about the Altus/Elven romance, an Altus/Qunari romance would be far more funny to see.

Well, there is one of those with Dorian/Bull or Dorian/Adaar...

[nightscrawl]

^ I think the implication there is with an opposite sex couple, since they can have children. If a gay person is coupled with someone of the same gender, it really isn't the same as a straight person with an opposite sex AND different race partner. In the case of the gay pairing, they won't be having children anyway, but the straight pairing is mixing blood and possibly producing undesirables (in the Tevinter mindset).

 

Do we know if it's possible to intermix all of the races, other than human/elf? That is, human/dwarf, human/qunari, dwarf/qunari, dwarf/elf, elf/qunari?

[Fredward]

^ We know human/dwarf is possible since a dwarven GW can impregnate Morrigan. Dunno about the rest. An elf with horns would be pretty funny to see.

[Gervaise]

Human/dwarf is possible because the Ash Warriors trace their lineage to Luthias Dwarfson, whose name says it all.   The main objection in Tevinter is that dwarves can't do magic, so you know there is a good chance the children won't be able to either.   However, Maevaris' marriage caused a scandal when children weren't even going to be an issue and this doesn't just seem to be because of the transgender issue.   The person is specifically criticising it because Maevaris is marrying beneath herself to a "status-grubbing" dwarf.   The dwarves may be allies of Tevinter but so far as the Altus are concerned, that does not put them in the same social rank as they are.  It is a bit like the attitude of the aristocracy in England in the 19th century to those who have been successful in trade or industry and therefore have the money to raise themselves in society but haven't the breeding. 

 

Marriages in Thedas, not just Tevinter, are all about status and political alliances.   If you are from an ancient lineage then that gives you automatic superiority over those that do not.   Hawke would not have been considered as acceptable to his social party by Duke Prosper on the basis of money alone.   Hawke was the child of Leandra Amell, and thus nobility.   They hadn't bought their way into society, they had simply restored the family's fortunes to an already noble line.     I imagine it is no different in Tevinter.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Since Bioware loves to give us protagonists with different character backgrounds, here is what I would like for DA4 if it takes place in Tevinter. 

 

Human Mage: Laetan.

 

Human Non-Mage: Soporati.

 

Elf Mage: Liberati.

 

Elf Non-Mage: Slave.

 

Dwarf: Surface Dwarf with ties to the Ambassadoria.

 

Qunari: Tal-Vashoth or Slave. 

[The Ascendant]

Good diversity. It would be interesting to interact with your muggle family and how they react to your magic.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Good diversity. It would be interesting to interact with your muggle family and how they react to your magic.

 

The thing with Tevinter muggle families, the soporatis, is that they would love having a mage child since magic allows them to move up the social circle. So the Laetan's muggle family would react the same way the Grangers in Harry Potter reacted when they discovered that Hermione had magic.  I suspect in DA4 we will learn the genetic or hereditary effects of manifesting magic since bloodlines are serious business in Tevinter. 

[Gervaise]

I've been reading up again on the Old Gods and I notice they state that there are still some cults in present day Tevinter who honour the two Old Gods who are still out there.   I wonder if they are just revivalist types who are reminiscing about past glory, like the Venator, or whether they are genuine survivors from ancient times and thus able to give insights into what their worship was really like.   They could have existed, just like the group in Haven did as a pre-Chantry cult to the Maker, living out on the fringes of society, surviving Hessarian's purges by their remoteness.  Having a companion who was a devotee would be interesting because of them being able to give a different perspective on history.   Everything we know about the Old Gods has come from their enemies; either  Andraste or Hessarian or the Chantries generally.    We associate them with initiating blood magic sacrifices but actually the only one really consistently associated with this is Dumat.      May be the focus on Razikale in Jaws of Hakkon is an indicator she is going to become more prominent in future lore reveals.    I really want to know when they stopped speaking to their priesthood, even better would be why?

 

Other thoughts on Dumat.    There are two other bits of lore I've picked up from the source books.   One is an ancient belief that the darkspawn didn't infect him but that he created the darkspawn.   This is clearly something that has come from somewhere other than the Chantry.   Considering that having so many followers meant that he literally could not be killed, since he just jumped to the closest one and was reborn, until the Wardens figured out how to stop him, makes me wonder if it was deliberate on his part.    Archdemons don't just seem mindless killers, they are still able to think and reason enough to make tactical moves with their followers and whilst the later ones may have been infected by the darkspawn, what if that was intentional on the part of Dumat as well?   Corypheus knew how to make himself immortal; may be it was Dumat who gave him the knowledge.  It was a nice irony that the people who figured out how to kill Dumat had thus made themselves a suitable vessel for his priest.

 

The other bit of lore is the belief that the Magisters found him before they assaulted the Golden City.   He instigated it all right and helped them get there but from his lair deep beneath the earth.   If that were so it would account for why when they returned they ended up deep underground.   Also if the Chant is correct and it did only blacken at their touch, then the reason he sent them there was specifically to corrupt the Golden City, even though he may not have made them aware of the real reason at the time.    This bit of lore points out this would tie in with the fact that the dwarves suspected the Blight had been around underground much longer.  In any case, with the time scale given in the Chant, the Magisters would have had to have assaulted the Golden City, been cursed, returned to earth, fled to the darkness, birthed and raised an army of darkspawn, found and corrupted Dumat and overrun all the western thaigs all in the space of a year, which seems unlikely.    The thing is, apparently this idea came from Grey Warden Scholars.    So if we are sent to Weisshaupt at all in the next game, it may be we can find out this sort of information there.

[vertigomez]

^ I think the implication there is with an opposite sex couple, since they can have children. If a gay person is coupled with someone of the same gender, it really isn't the same as a straight person with an opposite sex AND different race partner. In the case of the gay pairing, they won't be having children anyway, but the straight pairing is mixing blood and possibly producing undesirables (in the Tevinter mindset).

I know, I was just being cheeky.
 

Do we know if it's possible to intermix all of the races, other than human/elf? That is, human/dwarf, human/qunari, dwarf/qunari, dwarf/elf, elf/qunari?

Dwarf/elf is also possible but incredibly rare. The result would just be a dwarf, like with human/elf pairings. Been a few theories that Sandal is elf-blooded, but who knows?

Since Bioware loves to give us protagonists with different character backgrounds, here is what I would like for DA4 if it takes place in Tevinter.
 
Dwarf: Surface Dwarf with ties to the Ambassadoria.

I rly hope we don't get another surface dwarf. Need some variety, after Cadash. Tevinter has underground embassies specifically so dwarven ambassadors won't lose their caste by coming to the surface. I'd really like to play a more "traditional" dwarf this time around, albeit one that comes to the surface eventually through the mechanations of the plot (like Brosca/Aeducan, Oghren, Sigrun).