195 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Dwarves and Qunari need to have as much stake and development in the game as elves, otherwise there's no point in including them.  they could have kept it human only and saved themselves the trouble.

 

The Inquisition is pretty much the only way Briala's plan sees any success, and even then her current goals are so nebulous as to be meaningless.  She wants her fellow Orlesians (and she and many of the City Elves see themselves as Orlesian first, elf second) treated better, with no actual specifics on what that means, how it could be accomplished, or what measurements should be put in place to track it.  It's not as though the Orlesian monarch can legislate away prejudice overnight.  Right now, she's just throwing a tantrum and hoping she makes enough of a stink that someone pays attention.

 

And even with the Eluvians, she doesn't have a big enough bargaining chip to ensure any deal made wouldn't be disregarded the moment it was convenient.  The entire reason she stole the network from Celene in the first place is because everyone knew the Empress wasn't going to keep her promises.  Not to mention that nothing she has is sufficient to counter the fact that whoever controls Val Royeaux has something on the order of 10,000 hostages against her good behavior, with Halamshiral as a fresh example of what can happen if her treason becomes truly irritating.

 

I can certainly see the Dalish wanting the network, but I don't see what they have to offer Briala in order to get it.  She's made it very clear that she does not see them as her people, and they have no real stake in, or even understanding of, the reasoning behind her rebellion.  Not to mention that, given the differences between clans, you would hardly be treating with some unified Dalish entity.  You would be treating with each clan individually, assuming more than one showed up.  There's a lot of room for the Dalish to promise aid to the Orlesian elves only to betray them once the Dalish have what they want.

 

I could go on.  No matter who Briala sides with, in order to get there she had to commit treason.  That's not something a monarch is likely to forget or let pass indefinitely.  Unless they pull out some serious story contortions, I really see Briala's control of the network as a dead end.

 

I'll be looking to cut her a deal... or at least make sure to put someone more pliable in charge of the network. I can see the Eluvians playing a large part in the enterprise that will sustain the Inquisition after the breach, and it's a great opportunity for cooperative elves to make a lot of money. Money is power.

 

Imagine, the transportation of goods (including Lyrium) at a speed literally no one else can offer, among other services. I've got the connections, the contracts, and the muscle, and they've got the movers and Eluvians. It'll be the Imperial Highway of the new age.

[Seboist]

They're fully allowed to leave the ghetto and establish elsewhere, they're not being being kept there by any laws which tell them it's mandatory.

 

The problem with assimilation is the us vs them mentality being propagated by both sides and further reinforced by the Dalish's tales of racial supremacy and purity. Once that mentality can be abolished (either by eradicating the Dalish or watering down their culture), human and elf relations can progress past the point of fear and hatred.

Which shows the depth of their delusion given the reality of things between the races. They don't yet realize they're neanderthals in their last throes against a more advanced ascending race.

[Dave of Canada]

No, they're not fully allowed to leave. There might not be any written law saying they have to say, but there is de facto descrimination and absurdly high violence against elves that makes leaving dangerous.

 

De facto discrimination? About as much as any lower class citizen, really. Whether they're human or elf, they're allowed the same opportunities. I'm not saying there isn't racism at fault but the fact that under all legal pretenses, city elves are viewed as equal by law and by Chantry. The fault lies in that the law is ruled over by the nobility, which is the real problem here.

 

What we'd need is education among the lower class throughout the board regardless of race and the abolishing of the supremacist tendencies of the Dalish which believe there's inherent racial superiority in elves, the ignorance of humanity can be cured but believing that you're inherently superior and that humanity is a plague that's brought down your greatness is something that has to be eliminated.

 

About the riots, we don't know enough about it to signify it as one way or another.

 

In one case, which only occurs if the City Elf Warden takes office, it's caused by an influx of elves moving to Denerim rather than the City Elf Warden being the Bann of the Alienage.

 

Another case has Soris marry a wealthy human woman who caused outrage to both the City Elves and the Humans, the City Elves were the ones to cause the riot and it forced the guardsmen to crack down. The elves here are completely at fault assuming they're rioting simply due to the marriage.

 

The others are the closest thing to discrimination as the primary influence with human bigot which is part of a "resistance" (rather than an angry mob) killing Shianni or an angry mob killing the unnamed Bann, causing the city elves to riot. 

 

If your unnamed Bann is slain by an angry mob or Shianni is slain by a human bigot, it doesn't imply that the position ceased to exist. It doesn't show that there are any signs that guards aren't involving themselves. Hell, the Alienage has its own trade and militia at this point and rather than using it productively, they instigate riots.

 

Their riots are not helping them achieve assimilation into human society. They view everything as discrimination, begin to raise their torches and burn down the Alienage and then have to be dealt with by the guardsmen and use that as evidence that they're being discriminated. It's simple barbarism. Don't **** where you eat, etc.

[Cainhurst Crow]

^When the vast majority of humans live in systematic poverty and possible second-class citizenry to a dominent race where only the occasional human catches a good break, while the vast majoirty of elves live rather comfortably in their own race-dominated continent and only the occasional elf catches a bad break financially, I'll entertain the idea that humans have it "just as bad" or worse than elves.

 

So basically, what its like to live in lowtown or darktown, or the slums of denerim, or anywhere theres a aristocracy ruling government and only a merchant class to attain wealth for non-royals.

[Dave of Canada]

So basically, what its like to live in lowtown or darktown, or the slums of denerim, or anywhere theres a aristocracy ruling government and only a merchant class to attain wealth for non-royals.

 

Basically, this. A quick look at any poverty-stricken area shows an equal imbalance between elves and humans, both living in their own filth and viewed as disgusting by people higher on the class. If you'd ask why they're in these shoes, the human would respond with lack of opportunities or because of their terrible birth status and the elf would simply complain that it's an anti-elven sentiment which apparently prevents them from earning any of the opportunities which apparently uplifts humans.

 

Meanwhile the dwarves--who are viewed with a similar hatred by humans--are allowed to own their own shops, build their own communities and prosper just like anyone else, elf and human, without being thrown away by so-called systematic racism.

[veeia]

Um, but the point is that there aren't a similar proportion of elves and humans in power. No one is saying all people who are poor are elves.

Not to mention, elves in the alienage are likely at higher risk of violence an having any claims of violence perpetuated on them dismissed/ignored.

[Drasanil]

Basically, this. A quick look at any poverty-stricken area shows an equal imbalance between elves and humans, both living in their own filth and viewed as disgusting by people higher on the class. If you'd ask why they're in these shoes, the human would respond with lack of opportunities or because of their terrible birth status and the elf would simply complain that it's an anti-elven sentiment which apparently prevents them from earning any of the opportunities which apparently uplifts humans.

 

Except for the fact that elves who do manage to better their lot tend to get their homes burnt down and all their possessions stolen sending them right back to the alienage. [And those are the lucky one, the unlucky ones get killed too.] Where as humans who do, do not.

 

 

Meanwhile the dwarves--who are viewed with a similar hatred by humans--are allowed to own their own shops, build their own communities and prosper just like anyone else, elf and human, without being thrown away by so-called systematic racism.

 

No. Even trying to pretend that is the case is just a lulz fail. Dwarves don't at all share the same history as elves, nor are they viewed in the same light. Especially when you consider the fact that 1) Tevinter loves dwarves, they're the only race exempt from slavery. And 2) Even the Chantry cow-tows to the dwarves because of the Lyrium trade, despite the fact that most dwarves, unlike most elves, are full blown heretics and their race didn't even manage to get verses, dissonant or not, into the Chant of Light.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Um, but the point is that there aren't a similar proportion of elves and humans in power. No one is saying all people who are poor are elves.

Not to mention, elves in the alienage are likely at higher risk of violence an having any claims of violence perpetuated on them dismissed/ignored.

So like all those women killed in kirkwall that got chalked up to "random violence" by both the templars and city guard. The ones related or unrelated to the frakenmom mage. I'm gonna take a random stab in the dark, and guess those folks were mostly human.

And as for a similar proportion, what does that even mean? Does that mean that power is divided up by population numbers, broken down into a percentile and positions measured that way? Does it mean a 50/50 split even though there doesn't appear to be a 50/50 population ration between humans and elves. What are the ratios anyway, and how pray-tell do you accomplish this without simply creating another aristocracy without accountability? Thedas doesn't work on a democratic republic even, let alone a representative system.

Saying things aren't equal is fine, but its not equal for the 95% of humans who aren't merchants, land owners, or nobility either. My question is, how exactly do we measure proportions or rations or any other incremental unit of power that makes it somehow "equal". What does equality even mean in this situation? Are we talking equal rights? Or equal protection under the law? Or equal representation as other humans? All of which amount to being exactly in the same position they are now, that of being poor and untrained laborers.

Improving everyones lot, human, elf, dwarf, whatever, and raising them all up is, to me, true equality. Only then will you have anything approaching fair take place. However, I am still curious, what your definition of fair or equal would be.

[Seboist]

Dwarves are racial brothers of humans and besides, I'd rather have them guarding the deep roads against dark spawn than humans.

[HiroVoid]

Except for the fact that elves who do manage to better their lot tend to get their homes burnt down and all their possessions stolen sending them right back to the alienage. [And those are the lucky one, the unlucky ones get killed too.] Where as humans who do, do not.

 

 

 

 

 

No. Even trying to pretend that is the case is just a lulz fail. Dwarves don't at all share the same history as elves, nor are they viewed in the same light. Especially when you consider the fact that 1) Tevinter loves dwarves, they're the only race exempt from slavery. And 2) Even the Chantry cow-tows to the dwarves because of the Lyrium trade, despite the fact that most dwarves, unlike most elves, are full blown heretics and their race didn't even manage to get verses, dissonant or not, into the Chant of Light.

There's definitely some similarities there.  Both have their previous homes occupied.  One by humans.  The other by evil incarnate.

[veeia]

There's definitely some similarities there.  Both have their previous homes occupied.  One by humans.  The other by evil incarnate.

 

You mean one by evil incarnate. The other by darkspawn.

 

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

You divide instead of unite. Splitting apart the poor and disenfranchised by their traits, rather then uniting them as one against the true oppressors, the merchant bourgeoisie and the ruling nobles. Those who bar others from power, and those who insure the poor remain poor and destitute.

 

That is why the elves will always fail, because they see being an elf as something important, rather then how even with the same rights and protection and treatment humans get, they'll still be treated as low class citizens. There's nothing they gain from celebrating their elven heritage, and everything to gain from joining their fellow poor in rising up in revolution.

[HiroVoid]

You mean one by evil incarnate. The other by darkspawn.

 

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. 

Reminds me of Yahzee's review.  'Hi.  You are a human, so you must be an a**hole.'

[Drasanil]

There's definitely some similarities there.  Both have their previous homes occupied.  One by humans.  The other by evil incarnate.

 

That's like saying there's a similarity between you and me because we both have breakfast at some point after we get up in the morning. 

 

--- --- ---

 

That said, I'm not saying surface dwarves necessarily have it easy. But compared even to their own kin in the casteless or servant [and possibly even miner and merchant] caste[s] they probably have it better over all. On top of that, comparing their lot to city elves is kind of perverse given dwarves aren't actively punished for succeeding.

[Drasanil]

You divide instead of unite. Splitting apart the poor and disenfranchised by their traits, rather then uniting them as one against the true oppressors, the merchant bourgeoisie and the ruling nobles. Those who bar others from power, and those who insure the poor remain poor and destitute.

 

That is why the elves will always fail, because they see being an elf as something important, rather then how even with the same rights and protection and treatment humans get, they'll still be treated as low class citizens. There's nothing they gain from celebrating their elven heritage, and everything to gain from joining their fellow poor in rising up in revolution.

 

 

Eeew, communist cooties. Kill it with fire

[veeia]

Oh please. Even a first year college socialist understands intersectionality of race and class, which is what we are discussing here.

 

No one is talking about dividing, simply recognizing the realities of certain oppressed groups. That doesn't mean they can't experience solidarity or work together to rise up, but it does mean the differences need to be acknowledged when talking of them, that way it can be ensured that the revolution fights for everyone's needs, not just the needs of the dominant exploited group. 

 

Anyway, elves. Pretty cool. I like them.  One thing I hope the Dalish Quizzie gets to do is talk to their Keeper/clan. It doesn't look like you'll be able to do that at the beginning of the game, but maybe we'll run into them later? I also wonder what they'll do about the First if youre rolling a non-elven character. (I guess I'll find out). Maybe just killed in the blast?

[HiroVoid]

 

That's like saying there's a similarity between you and me because we both have breakfast at some point after we get up in the morning. 

 

--- --- ---

 

That said, I'm not saying surface dwarves necessarily have it easy. But compared even to their own kin in the casteless or servant [and possibly even miner and merchant] caste[s] they probably have it better over all. On top of that, comparing their lot to city elves is kind of perverse given dwarves aren't actively punished for succeeding.

I'd say Casteless still have it worse.  People talk about how they can just go up to the surface, but for what?  If they don't have any connections on the surface, how are they going to get anywhere?  If they don't know anyone, where are they going to live?  Since they're Casteless, they're generally not taught any skills other than the ones they picked up which are usually good for criminal stuff.  So they possibly leave where they are to go to a place they know nothing about (idea of falling into the sky is probably common due to no education) with nobody there to help where there's probably a good chance their result of going up will either be jobless and homeless meaning they're just casteless on the surface, or join the Carta or some other family.

 

Even most City Elves in comparion, tend to have a close-nit community where they seem to look after each other alright.  In Orzammar, its every dwarf looks after himself.  Going up above, its completely alien with no connection and the only skills they have are criminal-related.

[SamanthaJ]

Oh please. Even a first year college socialist understands intersectionality of race and class, which is what we are discussing here.

 

No one is talking about dividing, simply recognizing the realities of certain oppressed groups. That doesn't mean they can't experience solidarity or work together to rise up, but it does mean the differences need to be acknowledged when talking of them, that way it can be ensured that the revolution fights for everyone's needs, not just the needs of the dominant exploited group. 

 

Anyway, elves. Pretty cool. I like them.  One thing I hope the Dalish Quizzie gets to do is talk to their Keeper/clan. It doesn't look like you'll be able to do that at the beginning of the game, but maybe we'll run into them later? I also wonder what they'll do about the First if youre rolling a non-elven character. (I guess I'll find out). Maybe just killed in the blast?

Well, Patrick did tweet about #AssQuisitor and her Dalish buddies. Maybe it's Lavellan's Clan. It should be fun interacting with them as Lavellan, anyway.

 

Ah, someone compiled his tweets, here are the Dalish ones: http://mabelssweater...art-7-x-link-to

[veeia]

I wonder how they'll feel about Lavellan working with the Inquisition. I bet it will be mixed...seems like it puts them in a really good position to learn things and influence people, but it's also, yaknow, working with both hands of the Divine, a Tevinter mage, etc etc. So I can see them being wary, but interested in the opportunities it presents. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Anyway, elves. Pretty cool. I like them.  One thing I hope the Dalish Quizzie gets to do is talk to their Keeper/clan. It doesn't look like you'll be able to do that at the beginning of the game, but maybe we'll run into them later? I also wonder what they'll do about the First if youre rolling a non-elven character. (I guess I'll find out). Maybe just killed in the blast?

Considering you're sent there as a spy, most likely the dalish will not be at this meeting. I'm also curious as to what they do with the dalish clans. Will they finally make a likable clan, or make them run by a jerk who needs to be dealt with first. Or will they all be jerks like the trend seems to be. Personally, I'm hoping they're jerks, if only cause it'll be a more interesting roleplay experience to have players choose between the greater good of the inquisition or their personal preference of past relationships.

Though this extends to all the inquisition characters, having to go after the mercenary company the qunari inquisitior was part of, having to go after the dwarf family your dwarf inquisitior was part of, and having to go after the human noble familiy the human inquisitior was part of, all throughout the game. I just find conflicts of the past more interesting then everything going fine and everyone getting along.

Wonder if the city elf will hate the elf inquisitor. Always hard to gauge cause kirkwall's elves seemed to like the dalish and fereldens seemed to not.

[HiroVoid]

Considering you're sent there as a spy, most likely the dalish will not be at this meeting. I'm also curious as to what they do with the dalish clans. Will they finally make a likable clan, or make them run by a jerk who needs to be dealt with first. Or will they all be jerks like the trend seems to be. Personally, I'm hoping they're jerks, if only cause it'll be a more interesting roleplay experience to have players choose between the greater good of the inquisition or their personal preference of past relationships.

Though this extends to all the inquisition characters, having to go after the mercenary company the qunari inquisitior was part of, having to go after the dwarf family your dwarf inquisitior was part of, and having to go after the human noble familiy the human inquisitior was part of, all throughout the game. I just find conflicts of the past more interesting then everything going fine and everyone getting along.

Wonder if the city elf will hate the elf inquisitor. Always hard to gauge cause kirkwall's elves seemed to like the dalish and fereldens seemed to not.

Maybe the Dalish Clan accidentally summoned a demon that you have to beat as a boss in the area.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maybe the Dalish Clan accidentally summoned a demon that you have to beat as a boss in the area.

I'd like to see them tie some stuff in with the books, so maybe the demon could be Imshael. I'd personally hope they don't summon another demon cause if they do so, I'll start having to refer to them as demon worshipers. ((Seriously, Zatharan, Marethari, Merrill, The Masked Empire Dalish, it seems every dalish clan we meet involves summoning demonic forces of one kind or another to reap untold evil upon the land. Is it just me, or do they seem to be unusually good at it.))