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Elvhen support thread


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#101
HiroVoid

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I'd like to see them tie some stuff in with the books, so maybe the demon could be Imshael. I'd personally hope they don't summon another demon cause if they do so, I'll start having to refer to them as demon worshipers. ((Seriously, Zatharan, Marethari, Merrill, The Masked Empire Dalish, it seems every dalish clan we meet involves summoning demonic forces of one kind or another to reap untold evil upon the land. Is it just me, or do they seem to be unusually good at it.))

Maybe there wouldn't be as much if they had templars or a circle? :ph34r:


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#102
Cainhurst Crow

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Maybe there wouldn't be as much if they had templars or a circle? :ph34r:


You'd figure their superior tracking and hunting skills would let them set up some kind of way of monitoring their magic users. But no, apparently their leader can just slip away without any of them giving a flying flip, even if its super dangerous for them to go alone. Or they're just a-okay with a super powerful demon being in their care, as if it won't bite them in the arse.

#103
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I wonder how they'll feel about Lavellan working with the Inquisition. I bet it will be mixed...seems like it puts them in a really good position to learn things and influence people, but it's also, yaknow, working with both hands of the Divine, a Tevinter mage, etc etc. So I can see them being wary, but interested in the opportunities it presents.


I rather hope they see it as the golden opportunity it is to help the Dalish and possibly city elves, through positive interaction and cooperation with various human factions.

(BioWare has already shown us quite a few intolerant craziest who would rather cut off their own noses to spite their faces. We know they exist. Now I'd like to see some more progressive, cooperative Dalish clans.)
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#104
Steelcan

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Dalish who don't suicide by stupid would be a nice change in pac
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#105
Dean_the_Young

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The problem with assimilation is the us vs them mentality being propagated by both sides and further reinforced by the Dalish's tales of racial supremacy and purity. Once that mentality can be abolished (either by eradicating the Dalish or watering down their culture), human and elf relations can progress past the point of fear and hatred.

 

 

Another problem with assimilation is recognizing when it even has occurred- especially with the fantasy genetics of the elves.

 

One of the strongest indicators of assimilation by groups or individuals into a majority is the attitudes toward sexual relations and, well, breeding. Entire cultures have dedicated ungodly amounts of energy to separating racial/ethnic groups and the like, to the point that even dating the 'other' group could be lead to death, or worse, for those involved. Without dismissing the great swarths of categories of 'acceptable' sexual relations that reflect power imbalance rather than integration (such as antebellum American attitudes towards blacks and whites: a white man could sleep with a black woman, but not vice versa), a general rule of societies is that if it's socially permissible to sleep and breed with them, acceptance (if not approval) and assimilation (if not equal) are well on their way.

 

In the real world, the proof of this comes in the blending of otherwise distinct ethnic/racial features. The most common for Americans would be most African-Americans, who have skin tones significantly lighter than what is often found in Western and Central Africa where ancestors came from.

 

 

In Thedas, though... this doesn't exist. Not for elves. Any union of an elf and human will only produce humans. Any elf or group of elves who succedes in assimilation to the point that marriage is acceptable will ultimately vanish from the elven gene pool in future generations because the assimilated as much as they do. It was... Ionia, I think? The female elf in the Human Noble origin? She's an excellent example of the demographic dead in that assimilation is for the phenotype: being accepted by a noble family, and potentially to the point of the M!Human!Warden reciprocating interest. She's almost the ideal of what asssimilation would allow... but any child she and the Warden could have ever held, would have been human. The only way to preserve the elven phenotype over the long term for any assimilated group is to deliberately obstruct assimilation with the humans and maintain breeding programs. Since the only ones particularly interested in this are the Dalish and City Elf elders trying to preserve the racial identity of elvishness...

 

So in Thedas, when people say there's been no change or assimilation for the city elves, there's no way to prove that and it's highly suspect. All city elves are elves who, for whatever reason, have never had an ancestor who assimilated to the point that intercourse produced children. They are the descendents of those who haven't assimilated or been assimilated. The elven bloodlines that did assimilate, to the point that they could and did have reproductive relations with humans, are simply now human and don't get tallied.


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#106
Dean_the_Young

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^When the vast majority of humans live in systematic poverty and possible second-class citizenry to a dominent race where only the occasional human catches a good break, while the vast majoirty of elves live rather comfortably in their own race-dominated continent and only the occasional elf catches a bad break financially, I'll entertain the idea that humans have it "just as bad" or worse than elves.

 

Huh?

 

The vast majority of humans in Thedas live in systematic poverty, are second-class citizenry, and only the occasional human catches a good break in the crapsack world of supernatural disease, mundane oppression, and forces that range from uncaring to actively malevolent. Moreover, humans catch bad breaks all the time- seriously, most of the victims who exist to be saved by the PC are human.

 

Elves getting their own continent to be lords of wouldn't make the human suffering any worse, either, so that bit was just plain weird.


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#107
Xilizhra

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You'd figure their superior tracking and hunting skills would let them set up some kind of way of monitoring their magic users. But no, apparently their leader can just slip away without any of them giving a flying flip, even if its super dangerous for them to go alone. Or they're just a-okay with a super powerful demon being in their care, as if it won't bite them in the arse.

I think it's because only the Dalish really work for subtle demonic plots within a society. The only issues with demons that can really pop up in a Circle are the flagrantly destructive kind, especially because visiting a Circle and speaking to its inhabitants in any manner resembling normal (so that one can slowly find out what's abnormal) would be a lot harder thanks to the inaccessible nature of most Circles. So the Dalish are the only real society in which this sort of subtle demonic issue can be used properly, especially if you don't want to just use roving bands of human apostates (of which there were plenty in DAO, before being practically omnipresent in DA2--the number of humans involved in demonic dealings vastly outweighs the number of elves).

 

Also, the nature magic and limited teleportation (or at least travel through the earth) that Keepers have access to makes them extremely good at slipping away.



#108
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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I wonder how they'll feel about Lavellan working with the Inquisition. I bet it will be mixed...seems like it puts them in a really good position to learn things and influence people, but it's also, yaknow, working with both hands of the Divine, a Tevinter mage, etc etc. So I can see them being wary, but interested in the opportunities it presents.


Id say it depends on the clan, some would be supportive of a Dalish leading the inquisition & proving that not all Dalish elves are hostile people who detest humans, other clans could just see them as a race traitor "flat ear" for working with & helping humans, the type of clan who likely hope the demons destroy humanity

#109
HiroVoid

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So the Dalish are the only real society in which this sort of subtle demonic issue can be used properly, especially if you don't want to just use roving bands of human apostates (of which there were plenty in DAO, before being practically omnipresent in DA2--the number of humans involved in demonic dealings vastly outweighs the number of elves).

Eh.  I really don't think we have enough data to say who has more demonic dealings aside from saying that its almost certainly humans since humans vastly outnumber elves.



#110
Xilizhra

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Eh.  I really don't think we have enough data to say who has more demonic dealings aside from saying that its almost certainly humans since humans vastly outnumber elves.

Well, literally every community with mages in it in both games has had at least one member who engaged in clandestine dealings with spirits.

 

In Zathrian's clan, there was one, Zathrian. In the Fereldan Circle, there was Uldred, plus several other of his confederates. In the Sabrae Clan, there were two, Merrill and Marethari. In Kirkwall's Circle, the number is unclear, but several hostile blood mages show up in The Last Straw, and of course there's Orsino's self-destruction. We should also keep in mind that there were multiple mages in both Dalish clans, as Lanaya mentions competing with others to become First and Merrill mentions a new First in her own clan.

 

The evidence for the Dalish being especially prone to screwing around with demons (especially since Zathrian didn't even do that), beyond the bounds of "we're the PC and we see people in crisis more often than in peace," appears slim to nonexistent. The issue appears more that Bioware has not yet been able to come up with any plots for the Dalish beyond that, since the Dalish are less likely to deal with issues that appeal to a non-Dalish PC to help them. Hopefully DAI changes that, and things like the Eluvians and Arlathan are hopeful signs.



#111
Steelcan

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especially since Zathrian didn't even do that

thats exactly what he did, the dalish don't differentiate between spirits and demons, the fact that it was used in a ritual to enslave and brutalize people suggests it was a demon he bound to the wolf



#112
AresKeith

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Id say it depends on the clan, some would be supportive of a Dalish leading the inquisition & proving that not all Dalish elves are hostile people who detest humans, other clans could just see them as a race traitor "flat ear" for working with & helping humans, the type of clan who likely hope the demons destroy humanity

 

Mostly why I don't hate all Dalish, now if only we see more of the clans who aren't so hostile



#113
Xilizhra

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thats exactly what he did, the dalish don't differentiate between spirits and demons, the fact that it was used in a ritual to enslave and brutalize people suggests it was a demon he bound to the wolf

What sort of demon would you say the Lady of the Forest is? She certainly doesn't seem to match any type I know of, in either personality or physiology.


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#114
Steelcan

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What sort of demon would you say the Lady of the Forest is? She certainly doesn't seem to match any type I know of, in either personality or physiology.

she's was been modified by the encounter with Zathrian (she talks about how he created her), so its probably impossible to say for sure

 

but I imagine she's probably a desire demon of some sort



#115
Xilizhra

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she's was been modified by the encounter with Zathrian (she talks about how he created her), so its probably impossible to say for sure

 

but I imagine she's probably a desire demon of some sort

And... when does she display desires of any sort, or play upon them?

 

Also, she existed before Zathrian created Witherfang; the Grand Oak mentions the spirit of the Brecilian Forest itself that vanished on the day the werewolves came.



#116
Steelcan

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And... when does she display desires of any sort, or play upon them?

 

Also, she existed before Zathrian created Witherfang; the Grand Oak mentions the spirit of the Brecilian Forest itself that vanished on the day the werewolves came.

Desire to end the curse and help the werewolves and she is willing to entertain forcing Zathrian to end the curse, iirc desire isn't limited to lust or sexual desires

 

We don't know what form or sort of being she was before then, she could very well have been a spirit that was corrupted into a demon when Zathrian bound her



#117
Xilizhra

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Desire to end the curse and help the werewolves and she is willing to entertain forcing Zathrian to end the curse, iirc desire isn't limited to lust or sexual desires

 

We don't know what form or sort of being she was before then, she could very well have been a spirit that was corrupted into a demon when Zathrian bound her

Evidence for her actually being a demon seems to be utterly nil.


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#118
Lulupab

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Pretty much everyone in the game even the werewolves think humans who Zathrian cursed deserved it, but he shouldn't have kept it going for that long.

#119
HiroVoid

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Pretty much everyone in the game even the werewolves think humans who Zathrian cursed deserved it, but he shouldn't have kept it going for that long.

And to their descendants since they were innocent.



#120
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Mostly why I don't hate all Dalish, now if only we see more of the clans who aren't so hostile

 

I agree. Come on BioWare writers, snap to it!



#121
Cainhurst Crow

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What sort of demon would you say the Lady of the Forest is? She certainly doesn't seem to match any type I know of, in either personality or physiology.

 

If I had to take a wild stab in the dark, given the properties of the werewolfs themselves, I would say a rage demon was most likely. Or a very feral spirit on the verge of turning into a rage demon.

 

Of course the lady says shes changed over time, and its reflected in those with the curse. Seems like the longer inhabitants of the fade are bound to the physical world, the more they change over time. Like the grand oak.



#122
Cainhurst Crow

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Pretty much everyone in the game even the werewolves think humans who Zathrian cursed deserved it, but he shouldn't have kept it going for that long.

 

But it didn't affect them only. The humans cured were not the ones oriignally cursed. They were humas hundreds of years later, dealing with a curse that perpetuated for centuries, claiming innocent people as victims and turning them into monsters.

 

Its no better then the folks who want to kill all elves cause of the elf-human war.



#123
Xilizhra

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But it didn't affect them only. The humans cured were not the ones oriignally cursed. They were humas hundreds of years later, dealing with a curse that perpetuated for centuries, claiming innocent people as victims and turning them into monsters.

 

Its no better then the folks who want to kill all elves cause of the elf-human war.

Which is why both Zathrian and the werewolves are at fault for wanting to kill/inflict irreparable harm to those who didn't have anything to do with their suffering. I really wish there was a way to call out the werewolves for being guilty of exactly the same thing as Zathrian in their attacks on the Dalish, but I can't side with Zathrian thanks to his badly circular reasoning when it comes to his wanting to kill all the werewolves, so I just have to let the werewolves get off scot-free with the ending of the curse. Bah.



#124
Lulupab

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But it didn't affect them only. The humans cured were not the ones oriignally cursed. They were humas hundreds of years later, dealing with a curse that perpetuated for centuries, claiming innocent people as victims and turning them into monsters.
 
Its no better then the folks who want to kill all elves cause of the elf-human war.


That one generation of that village folk tormented the Dalish and Zathrian chose the wrong kind of punishment which is infectious. The Dalish were really provoked this time but Zathrian made a mistake in making a reaction. It would have been justified if he killed all of them but he did something worse. They deserved did but the new humans getting infected didn't.

Edit: and as Xil said the werewolves tried the same thing. They deliberately targeted innocent Dalish rather than Zathrian himself.
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#125
Steelcan

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Evidence for her actually being a demon seems to be utterly nil.

Which is why I'm not claiming she absolutely was, that's the difference between you and me

 

but we do know she was a spirit, and given what she was used for, demon seems most likely