IMO, given their small numbers, the best thing for elven independence would be for them to find some kind of resource or technology they can exploit to protect them ala the dwarves because alliances fall quickly. And hey, they have the Eluvians, which only they can travel through without problems, and could revolutionize trade routes.
I mean maybe it's sacrilege or something to use them for that but. XD
IMO, given their small numbers, the best thing for elven independence would be for them to find some kind of resource or technology they can exploit to protect them ala the dwarves because alliances fall quickly. And hey, they have the Eluvians, which only they can travel through without problems, and could revolutionize trade routes.
I mean maybe it's sacrilege or something to use them for that but. XD
If they send out a few small groups of elite hunters with Eluvians, they could set up a teleportation route to the Donarks (a wilderness area to the northwest of the Anderfels)... before anybody knows what's going on, the elves could use Eluvians in Thedas to conduct a mass exodus to this unexplored territory.... 
Personally, I think that has a better chance of success than trying to retake the Dales... they also would not have to worry about humans following them if they simply disappear without a trace one day. Can you imagine? An elven exodus... humans have no idea what happened to them, and then the elves build a massive kingdom right over the mountains, totally unhindered by humanity?
If they send out a few small groups of elite hunters with Eluvians, they could set up a teleportation route to the Donarks (a wilderness area to the northwest of the Anderfels)... before anybody knows what's going on, the elves could use Eluvians in Thedas to conduct a mass exodus to this unexplored territory....
Personally, I think that has a better chance of success than trying to retake the Dales... they also would not have to worry about humans following them if they simply disappear without a trace one day. Can you imagine? An elven exodus... humans have no idea what happened to them, and then the elves build a massive kingdom right over the mountains, totally unhindered by humanity?
I'll say... that's a thought, but wouldn't be that kinda of counter productive? I mean, the elves got burnt twice because of isolationism... I don't know *unsure*
I'll say... that's a thought, but wouldn't be that kinda of counter productive? I mean, the elves got burnt twice because of isolationism... I don't know *unsure*
I don't believe that elves and humans can peacefully coexist. Centuries of history have proven this... if the elves disappear using Eluvians, the humans won't know where to find them and won't be able to follow either. I see no reason to remain in the slums and woodlands if any alternative exists. More importantly, the elves need to start looking for alternatives... so far, they haven't done much to improve their situation and have been complacent for about 500 years longer than they should have.
If Ferelden is willing to aid them in retaking and securing the Dales, I guess that would be fine... but do we really trust human allies to keep their word as the generations pass? What happens when Alistair dies? Will his successor be sympathetic to the elves, or will they be a racist like most humans?
Even if that weren't kind of immoral, all that would do is bring much greater human retaliation back down on the elves. Elves simply can't muster the kind of strength humans can. They have neither the numbers nor the military might for it.
Immoral how? Barring one, the human nations are enemies of the dale elves. If your enemy trips and falls, you don't wait for him to get up; you give him a good kicking then and there. Fighting fair only exists in fiction. And like i said, the demon invasion is an opportune moment as the human nations, Orlais especially, is weakened. The humans will certainly want to retaliate but if they are hit hard enough they will fear the cost of the attack more than they hate the elves.
Immoral how? Barring one, the human nations are enemies of the dale elves. If your enemy trips and falls, you don't wait for him to get up; you give him a good kicking then and there. Fighting fair only exists in fiction. And like i said, the demon invasion is an opportune moment as the human nations, Orlais especially, is weakened. The humans will certainly want to retaliate but if they are hit hard enough they will fear the cost of the attack more than they hate the elves.
Well putting aside the fact that Dragon Age IS fiction, The Dalish Clans have not been in a constant state of war with humanity for the last 700 years. "Hitting the humans hard enough that they will fear the elves too much to fight back" would necessitate the killing of so many innocent people that the elves would have to be more monstrously evil to Orlais than they have suffered at their hands in the past.
And that's only if the elves possessed the might to do so and they absolutely do not. The human nations of Thedas have repelled centuries long Blights and Qunari invasions that conquered a third of their collective territory. Elves could not hope to summon that kind of military force.
Well of course Imo if there will be an Elven State Magic will be allowed there, cuz they at least the Dalish see magic as a gift and not as a curse, and that will bring to great deal of problem, and becouse the Elves are fewer than tevinters, they'll need an ally, my opinnion Fereldan(Alistiar ruler ONLY)+ (Mages). Although I think they'll put an Elven stater in future games, but we'll have to wait and see in DA:I :-)
Well of course Imo if there will be an Elven State Magic will be allowed there, cuz they at least the Dalish see magic as a gift and not as a curse, and that will bring to great deal of problem, and becouse the Elves are fewer than tevinters, they'll need an ally, my opinnion Fereldan(Alistiar ruler ONLY)+ (Mages). Although I think they'll put an Elven stater in future games, but we'll have to wait and see in DA:I :-)
This actually brings up another problem inherent in the idea of retaking the Dales... the Chantry will not allow a newly formed nation to openly promote mages to positions of authority, and will want Circles formed within the borders of the Dales as a condition of any peace treaties they come up with. Even if they wish to ally with the Dalish, Ferelden is bound by their agreement with the White Chantry to participate in Exalted Marches against those who would threaten the stability of the land... in this case, an elven nation who has not only conquered a large portion of Orlais, but refuses to submit to the White Chantry's laws. This is more than enough of a justification for an Exalted March, since it's basically setting the framework for a new Tevinter right in the middle of the White Chantry's territory. Whether or not that is an accurate depiction of the new Elvhen state, that is undoubtedly the justification they will use when organizing the Exalted March... there is already a great deal of resentment towards the elves, and I doubt they will be able to stand against the combined armies of humanity.
Of course, all of that assumes that the Chantry remains intact after the events of Inquisition... I am of the opinion that it will remain powerful and able to call upon the armies of all the human nations like they did against Tevinter and the Qunari, but I could be wrong...
The dale elves have been engaged in low-intensity conflict with the human nations since the dales fell. "Low-intensity conflict" being modern weaselspeak for war when the combatants only take pot-shots at eachother when the opportunity presents itself without throwing any extra resources to fight. Interestingly enough, after the fall when the survivors made it to what is now Ferelden, the elves did exactly what I have proposed here: They picked the biggest, baddest human tribe around and wiped them out so brutally that the rest of the tribes left the elves alone after that. Yes, I know that hitting Orlais is not the same as hitting a single tribe. That's why the chaos of the invasion, the civil war and the strife within the chantry make for a unique opportunity. The humans are numerically superior but they will be scattered, divided, confused and in desperate need of supplies as the countryside turns in to a killing ground. Plus the Orlais (and most of thedas) military doctrine of heavy armor, cavalry and tight formations work poorly against an enemy that chooses to fight in broken ground, forests and mountains using guerilla tactics. Its not guaranteed to work but its the only way a truly independent elven state can be created with any hope of longevity.Well putting aside the fact that Dragon Age IS fiction, The Dalish Clans have not been in a constant state of war with humanity for the last 700 years. "Hitting the humans hard enough that they will fear the elves too much to fight back" would necessitate the killing of so many innocent people that the elves would have to be more monstrously evil to Orlais than they have suffered at their hands in the past.
And that's only if the elves possessed the might to do so and they absolutely do not. The human nations of Thedas have repelled centuries long Blights and Qunari invasions that conquered a third of their collective territory. Elves could not hope to summon that kind of military force.
Immoral how? Barring one, the human nations are enemies of the dale elves. If your enemy trips and falls, you don't wait for him to get up; you give him a good kicking then and there. Fighting fair only exists in fiction. And like i said, the demon invasion is an opportune moment as the human nations, Orlais especially, is weakened. The humans will certainly want to retaliate but if they are hit hard enough they will fear the cost of the attack more than they hate the elves.
So true. If anyone ever reads "Ender's Game," part of the reason Ender is recruited into Battle School is both his desire and willingness to completely and utterly destroy the will to fight in his opponents. He's not just trying to win the one fight, and he's trying to win all the future ones before they start.
The dale elves have been engaged in low-intensity conflict with the human nations since the dales fell. "Low-intensity conflict" being modern weaselspeak for war when the combatants only take pot-shots at eachother when the opportunity presents itself without throwing any extra resources to fight. Interestingly enough, after the fall when the survivors made it to what is now Ferelden, the elves did exactly what I have proposed here: They picked the biggest, baddest human tribe around and wiped them out so brutally that the rest of the tribes left the elves alone after that. Yes, I know that hitting Orlais is not the same as hitting a single tribe. That's why the chaos of the invasion, the civil war and the strife within the chantry make for a unique opportunity. The humans are numerically superior but they will be scattered, divided, confused and in desperate need of supplies as the countryside turns in to a killing ground. Plus the Orlais (and most of thedas) military doctrine of heavy armor, cavalry and tight formations work poorly against an enemy that chooses to fight in broken ground, forests and mountains using guerilla tactics. Its not guaranteed to work but its the only way a truly independent elven state can be created with any hope of longevity.
Add in the chaos of the mage/templar war, Nevarra having a succession crises and Ferelden still recovering from the Blight, there truly is no one around that can stop the elves if they unite.
I'm not saying it'll be easy, but it is most certainly possible.
Some of the ADB in the elven threads I debated this with say that it may be possible in the short term, but Orlais will regain strength after the crises is over and then overrun the elves. They completely and utterly overlook the fact that the elves will gain strength too.
It's not like the elves are static, remaining at a single level of strength, skill and force of arms for eternity.
This actually brings up another problem inherent in the idea of retaking the Dales... the Chantry will not allow a newly formed nation to openly promote mages to positions of authority, and will want Circles formed within the borders of the Dales as a condition of any peace treaties they come up with. Even if they wish to ally with the Dalish, Ferelden is bound by their agreement with the White Chantry to participate in Exalted Marches against those who would threaten the stability of the land... in this case, an elven nation who has not only conquered a large portion of Orlais, but refuses to submit to the White Chantry's laws. This is more than enough of a justification for an Exalted March, since it's basically setting the framework for a new Tevinter right in the middle of the White Chantry's territory. Whether or not that is an accurate depiction of the new Elvhen state, that is undoubtedly the justification they will use when organizing the Exalted March... there is already a great deal of resentment towards the elves, and I doubt they will be able to stand against the combined armies of humanity.
Of course, all of that assumes that the Chantry remains intact after the events of Inquisition... I am of the opinion that it will remain powerful and able to call upon the armies of all the human nations like they did against Tevinter and the Qunari, but I could be wrong...
They may have influence in calling on the faith of humans, but I highly doubt they'll have the teeth, meaning the templars and Circle's, to be taken as seriously as they were before with the threat of Exalted Marches.
They'll have plenty of bark, and even to a certain degree some influence on the rulers, but as real life history showed, oftentimes rulers and religions dispute over who should have the power and make the decisions and may even spend more time fighting each other than a common enemy...until that enemy is a direct threat to both.
They may have influence in calling on the faith of humans, but I highly doubt they'll have the teeth, meaning the templars and Circle's, to be taken as seriously as they were before with the threat of Exalted Marches.
They'll have plenty of bark, and even to a certain degree some influence on the rulers, but as real life history showed, oftentimes rulers and religions dispute over who should have the power and make the decisions and may even spend more time fighting each other than a common enemy...until that enemy is a direct threat to both.
I agree, but the bulk of my post was based on a scenario in which the Chantry maintains its traditional level of power in spite of this Fade business... if that doesn't happen, then they won't be able to unite the human lands to organize any more Exalted Marches, regardless of the reason. If they do regain their power, however, I really don't see them allowing a nation that allows mages to ram free to exist on conquered Orlesian territory...
The success of a new elven nation built within the reclaimed Dales will depend heavily on how the Chantry looks after the events of Inquisition.
Even without the Chantry to direct them, I am starting to think that human prejudice against mages might play a hand in whether or not an alliance between Ferelden and the Dales would be successful...
I agree, but the bulk of my post was based on a scenario in which the Chantry maintains its traditional level of power in spite of this Fade business... if that doesn't happen, then they won't be able to unite the human lands to organize any more Exalted Marches, regardless of the reason. If they do regain their power, however, I really don't see them allowing a nation that allows mages to ram free to exist on conquered Orlesian territory...
The success of a new elven nation built within the reclaimed Dales will depend heavily on how the Chantry looks after the events of Inquisition.
And if the Chantry remains united. And if the surrounding countries have enough strength to add. Because either the templars or the mages will join the Inquisition, and the Inquisition may support the elves.
The character interview about Cassandra had the devs saying that she's seen as a traitor by other Seekers because she still supports the Divine, but this also put her in the position to help found the Inquisition.
With the Breach at the beginning of the game, we can see all the top leaders being killed. I can see many Grand Clerics becoming divided over the right to become the new divine, politicking, laying blame, and so on.
And if the Chantry remains united. And if the surrounding countries have enough strength to add. Because either the templars or the mages will join the Inquisition, and the Inquisition may support the elves.
The character interview about Cassandra had the devs saying that she's seen as a traitor by other Seekers because she still supports the Divine, but this also put her in the position to help found the Inquisition.
With the Breach at the beginning of the game, we can see all the top leaders being killed. I can see many Grand Clerics becoming divided over the right to become the new divine, politicking, laying blame, and so on.
Yeah, the Chantry seems to be on slippery footing right now... a lot of things can go wrong for them. Whatever happens, it's a good set up for a story, so the results should be exciting. Just a little over a month and we'll finally see how this all turns out! xD
Yeah, the Chantry seems to be on slippery footing right now... a lot of things can go wrong for them. Whatever happens, it's a good set up for a story, so the results should be exciting. Just a little over a month and we'll finally see how this all turns out! xD
BOO YEAH!
The dale elves have been engaged in low-intensity conflict with the human nations since the dales fell. "Low-intensity conflict" being modern weaselspeak for war when the combatants only take pot-shots at eachother when the opportunity presents itself without throwing any extra resources to fight. Interestingly enough, after the fall when the survivors made it to what is now Ferelden, the elves did exactly what I have proposed here: They picked the biggest, baddest human tribe around and wiped them out so brutally that the rest of the tribes left the elves alone after that. Yes, I know that hitting Orlais is not the same as hitting a single tribe. That's why the chaos of the invasion, the civil war and the strife within the chantry make for a unique opportunity. The humans are numerically superior but they will be scattered, divided, confused and in desperate need of supplies as the countryside turns in to a killing ground. Plus the Orlais (and most of thedas) military doctrine of heavy armor, cavalry and tight formations work poorly against an enemy that chooses to fight in broken ground, forests and mountains using guerilla tactics. Its not guaranteed to work but its the only way a truly independent elven state can be created with any hope of longevity.
Except they haven't been engaged in a low intensity conflict ever since the fall of the Dales. Dalish Clans alternatively avoid, raid or trade with human villages. There's no endless war, just individual groups of nomads trying to survive by whichever way they think works best.
The story of the Sabrae clan attacking the Clayane barbarians unprovoked is something frankly paints that clan in something of a bad light (at least in that point in history). They were the villains of that story. But the other thing is those barbarian tribes don't exist anymore and they haven't for the past the better part of 400 years. They are all part of Ferelden. So it's hardly a fair comparison becuase it's not the reason they haven't been disturbed by them ever since. Although apparently fear of elves didn't keep that human tribes from murdering Zathrian's children.
The Dalish haven't made a practice of trying to bully the Kingdom of Ferelden around in the same way and with good reason. Dalish cannot afford a war with the strongest human nation in Thedas, even with a civil war and demon invasion. It's not like the demons are going to be friendly to the elves. Dalish clans are vulnerable. Orlais can absorb casualties that elves cannot. Even if the elves succeed in battle they still need to manage a state in the long term to do better than the Dales did. The Chantry still has sway in other nations and the Veil Crisis won't last forever. What happens afterward when Orlais regroups and the Chantry restablizes? What happens when the rest of humanity doesn't like the precedent of elven clans attacking a human nation and removing them from lands they've ruled for centuries? Humans outnumber elves overwhelmingly. There's no way an elven nation could survive by antagonizing them. Orlais defeated the original Dales (eventually) without the help of soldiers from any other nations. What happens if the new Divine calls them in decades later?
The Dalish haven't made a practice of trying to bully the Kingdom of Ferelden around in the same way and with good reason. Dalish cannot afford a war with the strongest human nation in Thedas, even with a civil war and demon invasion.
Umm....Ferelden is the strongest human nation? Wouldn't that be Orlais or Tevinter? Heck, maybe even Antiva with the Crows' own reputation keeping invading armies from invading.
Umm....Ferelden is the strongest human nation? Wouldn't that be Orlais or Tevinter? Heck, maybe even Antiva with the Crows' own reputation keeping invading armies from invading.
Sorry I guess I was being unclear. I meant they don't make a practice of trying to bully Ferelden, so if they can't even afford that, they definitely can't do so with Orlais, which is the strongest human nation.
Sorry I guess I was being unclear. I meant they don't make a practice of trying to bully Ferelden, so if they can't even afford that, they definitely can't do so with Orlais, which is the strongest human nation.
Ah.
Well, not anymore, at any rate.
But besides, it's also dependant on the clanin question. There are Dalis clans up in Tevinter that are little better than bandits.
Ah.
Well, not anymore, at any rate.
But besides, it's also dependant on the clanin question. There are Dalis clans up in Tevinter that are little better than bandits.
Is a civil war really enough to weaken Orlais that much though? I know that they are without their traditional Chantry support now that the Templars have gone their own way, but what about the chevaliers? And the normal military forces? Orlais still seems pretty strong...
The elves would really need a way to pool all of their resources to stand a reasonable chance of victory. I'm talking about all the clans figuring out how to safely reach the Dales before this Fade crisis passes and then take over... I'd also feel more comfortable with this if they had Ferelden's backing to defend against the eventual Orlesian counter-invasion if they manage to succeed in retaking the Dales...
I guess the Inquisition would be a pretty valuable ally as well, so long as the human soldiers who fill the Inquisition's ranks agree to go along with this plan...
Is a civil war really enough to weaken Orlais that much though? I know that they are without their traditional Chantry support now that the Templars have gone their own way, but what about the chevaliers? And the normal military forces? Orlais still seems pretty strong...
The elves would really need a way to pool all of their resources to stand a reasonable chance of victory. I'm talking about all the clans figuring out how to safely reach the Dales before this Fade crisis passes and then take over... I'd also feel more comfortable with this if they had Ferelden's backing to defend against the eventual Orlesian counter-invasion if they manage to succeed in retaking the Dales...
I guess the Inquisition would be a pretty valuable ally as well, so long as the human soldiers who fill the Inquisition's ranks agree to go along with this plan...
The Civil war, the elven rebellion, the Breach, the mage/templar war. Orlais, if it survives as a nation, will not have much strength left at all when all is said and done.
And yes, the elves would have to pool all their resources and unite, and it would not be easy, but I do think it is possible.
And since when did human soldiers, or any soldiers for that matter, have to agree with their commander? Desertion usually means execution if caught, and betraying the only person in all of Thedas who can close the breach doesn't seem to be very smart. Especially if the Inquisitor happens to be Dalish.
The Civil war, the elven rebellion, the Breach, the mage/templar war. Orlais, if it survives as a nation, will not have much strength left at all when all is said and done.
And yes, the elves would have to pool all their resources and unite, and it would not be easy, but I do think it is possible.
And since when did human soldiers, or any soldiers for that matter, have to agree with their commander? Desertion usually means execution if caught, and betraying the only person in all of Thedas who can close the breach doesn't seem to be very smart. Especially if the Inquisitor happens to be Dalish.
You make a good point about the state of Orlais. That's a whole lot of crises to be hit with simultaneously. There is also the possible schism that Petrice mentioned in DA2 to consider, so Orlais's days may be numbered... it is possible that this war will end with the nation divided in half?
Regardless, the elves have a difficult task in front of them. Not only are the clans scattered across the continent and disorganized, they lack any reliable means of communication. I was thinking that perhaps the Eluvians could be used to quickly bring the clans to a single location, but the success of this plan would be dependent on how many functioning Eluvians exist and how quickly this technology can be made available to each clan... Although they will be preoccupied with the civil war, I have no doubt that the Orlesian military will take steps to prevent the elves from streaming into the country once they are noticed. Tbh, this all sounds very difficult to pull off, and the elves are on a time limit as well... The plan also seems too dependent on luck, chaos, and poor judgement on the part of the humans. If the Orlesians decide to deal with the alarming number of elves crossing their borders and heading for the Dales rather than continue fighting one another, things could go very poorly for the elves...
As for your final point, I feel that if the Inquisitor relies too heavily on their unique connection to the Fade to secure the cooperation and loyalty of their soldiers and political allies, they will most assuredly be overthrown shortly after the Breach is sealed. Once the crisis has passed, there will be nothing preventing the Inquisition soldiers from going home. If that happens, they might seek to join the armies of their native countries in order to reverse whatever military actions they were forced to participate in under duress... Since this is a voluntary army, I think that the only way to keep this group together in the long run is if the soldiers feel as though the Inquisition's goals match their personal ones... otherwise, the Inquisition will last only as long as the Breach does.
But the Mages can be a potenial ally for the Elves don't you guys think?
theres a bit of cultural tension due to the parts alledging magi helped destroy the dales and literally sunk aralathan. So most clans like magi only if they are dalish... or a wardenBut the Mages can be a potenial ally for the Elves don't you guys think?
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