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How discriminating are people willing to see their LI options? (Gender/Race/X?)


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#301
Revan Reborn

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This is really more of an issue of immersion versus game play. It's something that BioWare has been struggling with for quite a long time. I think it's fine for companions to have preferences based on race and gender. If you go too far beyond that, however, I believe you start enforcing more limits than actually providing freedom and choice.

 

People love having options. People love creating their own experiences. If you place too many obstacles and hurdles in their way, creating an extremely defined and linear experience, they can only enjoy it but so much. This is why games like The Elder Scrolls franchise are so popular. BGS doesn't tell you how to play the game. They just give you the foundation and tools to play however you like. This applies in-game to the sandbox nature of the experience as well as the modding support BGS provides.

 

I don't mind BioWare trying to make relationships more compelling and realistic. I don't mind companions having biases and discriminating based on what they perceive is their ideal love interest. What I do mind is when this philosophy goes too far and really just undermines the experience of the game. Ultimately DAI and future BioWare games are not a dating simulator. While romance is certainly an important pillar to BioWare storytelling, it shouldn't restrict or harm the integrity of the rest of the experience as a result.



#302
Uccio

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Look gating is entirely too subjective. What the devs like skews it completely. Plus, you could make a beautiful inquisitor but boom, sliders not in proper position now they're "ugly" as determined by the game. However personality/race/class/spec gating is an awesome idea. If implemented well obviously. Maybe a Mage char dislikes all non-mages. Maybe a Templar won't date a Mage. Maybe Josephine's parents were brutally murdered in front of her eyes by a crow and she wants nothing to do with assasin specced characters. Maybe Cass has seen too many nevarran reavers lose their minds In battle and slay those close to them. Maybe an elf or dwarf feels that a human or qunari won't understand any of their culture? Maybe no one wants to date a Qunari because their race will eventually lead to world war 2 for thedas? Maybe a non-Mage character saw a necromancer raise her brothers corpse from the ground as a minion and fears anyone with that spec. See! Gating is good! It adds to a character and their story! It just has to be properly implemented.

 

It is good but there should be a possibility to get over their fear with something pc does, you know, getting to know the pc better could change things. If he acts they way LI would appreciate. However, it should not be easy.



#303
Shahadem

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I like race gating. It wouldn't really make sense for someone like a Keeper to fall in love with a nonelf (cough Merril cough).

 

It's all about immersion and whether the character, as they are portrayed, would be expected to act in that particular way.

 

I also think that in many situations Bioware hasn't been strict enough (ie Aerie should have been elf/half-elf only).



#304
JoltDealer

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Honestly, I don't think romances should have been race gated.  Your race should have made it harder to romance a character, not exclude you from it entirely.  Any person can have preferences, but there are always exceptions to rules.  I once knew a girl who refused to date white men, but then she met Mr. Right and he just happened to be white.  It was a little tough to get past her issues -- it was mostly due to cultural things -- but then they started dating and it went very well.  They married a few months ago.

 

What I'm saying is, race gated romances should have made things harder for things outside their race of choice.  Being an Elven Woman gives you a leg up on a regular human gal when it comes to romancing Solas, but players should have the opportunity to try.


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#305
efd731

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Honestly, I don't think romances should have been race gated. Your race should have made it harder to romance a character, not exclude you from it entirely. Any person can have preferences, but there are always exceptions to rules. I once knew a girl who refused to date white men, but then she met Mr. Right and he just happened to be white. It was a little tough to get past her issues -- it was mostly due to cultural things -- but then they started dating and it went very well. They married a few months ago.

What I'm saying is, race gated romances should have made things harder for things outside their race of choice. Being an Elven Woman gives you a leg up on a regular human gal when it comes to romancing Solas, but players should have the opportunity to try.

But then it ceases to be that thing. If all it does is require you to jump through a few more conversational hoops to get eternal love with your waifu and encounter some 'reluctance' flavour text it does nothing. It is literally them saying "insert 1 more positive conversation to start" like a game of buck hunter :P And doesn't change the experience. Having it completely limited however, changes everything. And that's a good thing imo

#306
Uccio

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But then it ceases to be that thing. If all it does is require you to jump through a few more conversational hoops to get eternal love with your waifu and encounter some 'reluctance' flavour text it does nothing. It is literally them saying "insert 1 more positive conversation to start" like a game of buck hunter :P And doesn't change the experience. Having it completely limited however, changes everything. And that's a good thing imo

 

It could also include actions and decisions ingame.



#307
Blessed Silence

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Since you have the 6th Doctor as your avatar .. I'll agree with anything you say!

 

But honestly, I need to see how it works now to give an opinion for anything else like it.

 

I thought it was quite interesting that for the first time we are getting not only gender-gated romance-options, but race-gated romance options.

 

Personally, I have no problem with this (anything that adds more texture to the game is something that adds more texture to the game), but how far would people be comfortable with this type of thing in future entries in the series?

 

Class orientations? (Someone who won't date Mages)

CC Silder Orientations? (Someone who won't date people with Double Chin > 6, or anyone with Freckles)

 

 

EDIT: For clarification, I'm talking about NPCs being discriminatory about YOU, not about your choice of LIs



#308
Muspade

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Honestly, I don't think romances should have been race gated.  Your race should have made it harder to romance a character, not exclude you from it entirely. 

Do you even people?

Were you one of those complaining you couldn't romance Varric or Aveline? (Or Sten or Oghren Or Wynne or Dog Barkspawn)



#309
EsterCloat

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I personally like the extent they've gone to in Inquisition. I'd even be open to some limited class gating in a future game if it makes sense in game, such as certain characters refusing to be with you if you're a blood mage or something similar.



#310
JoltDealer

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But then it ceases to be that thing. If all it does is require you to jump through a few more conversational hoops to get eternal love with your waifu and encounter some 'reluctance' flavour text it does nothing. It is literally them saying "insert 1 more positive conversation to start" like a game of buck hunter :P And doesn't change the experience. Having it completely limited however, changes everything. And that's a good thing imo

 

Not quite what I was going for.  What you are describing is very game-y, much like what Bioware is trying to move away from with future romances.  The Devs have stated that they want romances to have more nuance.  In my mind, I see it as romancing being more difficult insofar as a Dalish Elf is already familiar with the Dalish culture.  As a dwarf, human, or qunari, that means you would have to approach the romance from a different, metaphorical angle and have to relate to that particular character on a different level or topic to progress.  It wouldn't require extra conversations or flavoured text; just a different approach to the romance as a whole.  That could also make for good replay values in terms of the romances.

 

Do you even people?

Were you one of those complaining you couldn't romance Varric or Aveline? (Or Sten or Oghren Or Wynne or Dog Barkspawn)

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here.  If you disagree with something I've said, point it out so we can discuss it properly.  And for the record, I am not one of those people who complained about the topic you mentioned.



#311
MissMayhem96

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I'm fine with race-gating since people do have preferences on who they want to be with.. Solas and Cullen being the two straight race-gated romances in DA:I, they obviously want to be with either Elves or humans. 

 

Cullen = Elves and Humans

Solas = just Elves.

 

Is it wrong to have preferences now? CC gating is just a bad idea.. and Specialization gating could get tricky.



#312
TheRevanchist

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I wanted Aveline god damnit, she was MY dream girl, and I don't care who knows it! At least I get Cassandra...



#313
Jagrevi

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"Since you have the 6th Doctor as your avatar .. I'll agree with anything you say!"

 

Haha! Ultimate power! That's quite generous.

 

See, influence over others based on visual appearance can take many forms.



#314
Super Drone

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I like race gating. It wouldn't really make sense for someone like a Keeper to fall in love with a nonelf (cough Merril cough).

 

It's all about immersion and whether the character, as they are portrayed, would be expected to act in that particular way.

 

I also think that in many situations Bioware hasn't been strict enough (ie Aerie should have been elf/half-elf only).

 

What I'm getting from your statement is "Elves are supposed to be racist", it seems

 

Aerie freaking worships a Gnome god. She the last elf in fiction I would expect to turn up her nose at "lesser races".



#315
efd731

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Not quite what I was going for. What you are describing is very game-y, much like what Bioware is trying to move away from with future romances. The Devs have stated that they want romances to have more nuance. In my mind, I see it as romancing being more difficult insofar as a Dalish Elf is already familiar with the Dalish culture. As a dwarf, human, or qunari, that means you would have to approach the romance from a different, metaphorical angle and have to relate to that particular character on a different level or topic to progress. It wouldn't require extra conversations or flavoured text; just a different approach to the romance as a whole. That could also make for good replay values in terms of the romances.


I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here. If you disagree with something I've said, point it out so we can discuss it properly. And for the record, I am not one of those people who complained about the topic you mentioned.

I'm sorry this will offend you, but I believe you're being deliberately dense. "Approach it from a different metaphorical angle" is a meaningless nonsense phrase,(paraphrased) and to force your character to force your character to jump through elvhen flavored conversational hoops to romance a character is just as restrictive as a race gate. Having to like/agree with elven culture in order to proceed a romance is also not adding depth or complexity, it is literally as "gamey" as spamming morrigan with jewelry In origins. Having said that, the reason I think you're wrong is that you think the romances won't be gamey. All they've done is take away the ability to gift spam, and hidden the approval changes. Because it's a video game, so of course it's always video gamey.

Edit: if I've misunderstood, correct me and I'll apologize, until then, what you're describing is (in my mind) like having anders/fenris as a companion again. Nonstop "I hate X" and "Y is most important thing" robs characters of all depth. If that's all they can say/view things from, it makes them very 2 dimensional.

#316
Jagrevi

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re: "What I'm getting from your statement is 'Elves are supposed to be racist'"

 

Might a slightly less hyperbolic vision of what is being talked about here simply be ...

 

"Leaders of disenfranchised, racially-based minority communities are some degree more likely than average to draw racial distinctions with regards to people in their community marrying those of races they view as a historical source of that disenfranchisement (I don't strictly know if this is actually true, but it certainly/naively appears to be true, and I think the causal relationship here is clear enough for this to be viable), and that this apparent connection between a figure typically seen in a positive light (disenfranchised minority community leader) and a trait we generally see in a negative light (making racial distinctions in a social context) is the naturally interesting element to include in storytelling"?

 

Now maybe the bias is coming in here on my end and there actually isn't any even minor correlation here - I'm not a social scientist of any bent nor are social politics of much general interest to me outside of informing storytelling, so I certainly haven't given this any in-depth thought. That being said, I think this is the common conception of many people, and I think the logic behind the notion does hold up without an objective dispersion being placed upon any particular group coming as it does simply from human nature.

 

(Something akin to "there is a correlation between whether someone treats gunshot wounds or hunts wild game for a living and how people of that career feel about firearms" - it's not an objective dispersion against people who choose either such a career, it's simply allowing for reasonable inferences when the evidence presents itself based on the understanding that we are informed by our experiences and sources of daily focus. At some point we have to admit that those of us more exposed to bias-inducing life experiences are statistically more likely to be biased - and, yes, secretly that's all of us in various contexts.)

 

So, might it be the case, that if a connection between a type of character (Racially-Based, Disenfranchised Minority Community Leader, or RBDMCL's as we call them in a field I just jokingly made up right now to make myself sound like a more pretentious jerk than usual) and a particular trait (some extra level of distinction being made about humans racially, in this case) is

 

1) Interesting and a good source for narrative exploration (sources of conflict that occur between real people typically are)

2) Based upon a very potential real world correlation

 

That there might be some amount of player expectation regarding what their feelings likely are on race? (Not that breaking player expectations is necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it's a great thing, but it is very much a thing, and should be noted when done and used as a piece of contrast rather than the norm)

 

Now let's be honest, you could write a good character either way. Both a Keeper who does make that racial distinction and who does not make that racial distinction could be reasonable and interesting. However, you seem to be arguing with Shahadem about which directions gets more points for aligning with the social realities of our world, and I think there is a case to be made for someone like the Keeper making a racial distinction at some level beyond another character or the player (whether or not you call that distinction 'racism'), being more aligned to the social realities that we face in our world (or, at least the narratively interesting social realities of such, which does inform player expectation).

 

To me, while it is of course never objective and absolute, and stories are always carved out of the departure from it to some degree, this is what "narrative sense" is, and while a Keeper falling in love with a non-elf is certainly allowable and reasonable (I take no issue with it being in the story -  I romanced Merrill, in fact), I think when Shahadem says "no sense", he is on some level intuiting something about an intentionally chosen departure from that kind of "narrative sense", and that his statement is actually something a bit more than saying "Elves are supposed to be racist". 

 

Anyways, that was just my response to that first sentence of yours. I don't have a lot of interest generally in social muckity-muck, but statements that include such broad terms as "supposed" and "racist", not to even mention generalizing an assertion about a specified job (Keeper) or even character (Merrill) to an assertion about a whole race (which is actually what you just did), typically deserve a bit more breaking down, in my experience. That's how I see it at least.



#317
Super Drone

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snip

 

lol. Mostly I was pointing out that the guy brought up two separate elven LIs in Bioware games and said "They shouldn't date humans, because reasons".

 

Merrill not wanting to be with Hawke would have made a lot of sense. Aerie (from Baldur's Gate II) did not, as there is not a reason culturally for her to reject non-elves, she was raised by a gnome, is a Cleric of a non-elven god, and has been around non-elves for a big chunk of her life. Also, elves in D&D (which BG was based on) suffer drastically less social pressure from their own for dallying with non-elves.



#318
Jagrevi

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Ah, I'm actually unfamiliar with the Baldur's Gate series (I know, I know), so I missed that line informing the Elves comment.



#319
JoltDealer

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I'm sorry this will offend you, but I believe you're being deliberately dense. "Approach it from a different metaphorical angle" is a meaningless nonsense phrase,(paraphrased) and to force your character to force your character to jump through elvhen flavored conversational hoops to romance a character is just as restrictive as a race gate. Having to like/agree with elven culture in order to proceed a romance is also not adding depth or complexity, it is literally as "gamey" as spamming morrigan with jewelry In origins. Having said that, the reason I think you're wrong is that you think the romances won't be gamey. All they've done is take away the ability to gift spam, and hidden the approval changes. Because it's a video game, so of course it's always video gamey.

Edit: if I've misunderstood, correct me and I'll apologize, until then, what you're describing is (in my mind) like having anders/fenris as a companion again. Nonstop "I hate X" and "Y is most important thing" robs characters of all depth. If that's all they can say/view things from, it makes them very 2 dimensional.

 

You have misunderstood, but I am unsure if the fault lies with you or me.  I will clarify.

 

It wouldn't be about liking or agreeing with elven culture to proceed.  Let's say you're romancing Solas as a female elf.  You know what its like to be an elf and even what the Dalish culture is like.  You already have a good place to relate to one another in terms of a romance.  A human, dwarven, or qunari woman comes from a different culture and therefore won't get the same result from bringing that particular topic up.  That means the player would have to find something else in common (i.e. being a mage, being in the Inquisition, having a particular moral code).  Although that does not mean that you cannot discuss cultures anyway -- it only means that you cannot progress the romance in this fashion if you are not within the character's racial preference.

 

To put it simply, Dalish Woman can take Paths A, B, and C, to romance Solas, but Human/Dwarven/Qunari Woman could only take Path B or C if they're lucky.  Solas wouldn't be like Anders or Fenris, saying, "You'll never relate to my culture and I hate your race."  It would be more akin to something like, "This is difficult for an outsider to understand."  He wouldn't disapprove or spurn you for your lack of knowledge, but it would be difficult to forge or progress a romantic bond through this particular fashion.

 

Admittedly, I am a man of mixed race.  My parents are an interracial couple and I have friends who are in interracial relationships like I mentioned before.  The idea of, "You're not of my race and I therefore can't love you," has never really been a thing in my mind.  I've had friends with racial preferences, sure, but I've never seen it as an ironclad rule.  All I've seen is a preference that is occasionally ignored in certain cases.


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#320
efd731

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Thanks go explaining that much better. I still disagree that that would be any different from the outright gating of certain sections, but I can see where you're coming from much more clearly. Props :)

#321
daveliam

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 The idea of, "You're not of my race and I therefore can't love you," has never really been a thing in my mind.  I've had friends with racial preferences, sure, but I've never seen it as an ironclad rule.  All I've seen is a preference that is occasionally ignored in certain cases.

 

This was kind of what I was getting at earlier and I don't think I did a good job of explaining myself.  I can understand a preference for people who have features that are associated with a particular race.  But when that becomes an absolute deal-breaker, I find that hard to understand and I don't respond positively to that idea, personally.



#322
Jagrevi

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re: Daveliam

 

I don't support the idea that it "should" be an absolute deal breaker, to the contrary I personally would have trouble being with someone who would hypothetically end our relationship were I suddenly to become [some race of humanity here], but there are certainly communities in real life that put forward this type of notion. Usually this isn't because of an aesthetic, but because of a sense of obligation to a group to expand the population of that specific group. There are certainly Jews I have met that, citing the effect of the Holocaust on their population, state they feel it is their responsibility to marry only other ethnic Jews, not because they feel they could never love someone of another race, but that they had some obligation not to choose them as a reproductive partner, that not having their children be Jewish would be somehow "letting the Holocaust finish its job with a slow death".

 

I do not endorse this in anyway (in fact I don't think its generally advisable to isolate a genepool this artificially), but it is a real social issue in the history/contemporary-state of mankind, and I don't think it should be entirely avoided because it is to be seen as over the top bigotry and racism. If it is racism, it is a more subtle type of racism that I do not think we should hesitate to explore in our protagonists, particularly when the story of the world in question does involve the systematic destruction of some race of people and its history and the struggle of that people to recapture that lost identity. Exploration of a concept, even one in an otherwise heroic figure, does not entail portraying it in a positive light.

 

Even Ghandi and Lincoln had some unfortunate views on race, and a good accounting of who they were and what they did includes this as well, without it necessarily painting them as "unlikeable". It is merely an issue of interest, worth mirroring in our fiction that wishes to paint a world with race and racial politics as one of its brushes.



#323
Shya

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I'll try them all at least once then decide which i like best ;)



#324
Jagrevi

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re: Shya

 

Well alright, but the question at hand here has nothing to do with how you choose your LI's, just to clarify again.