134 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

Javik's importance eclipses compared to the Leviathan.

And indeed, none of the characters are essential, except Shepard and Liara.

 

Liara isn't essential

 

 

Again, this changes nothing.

Never said it did

[Vazgen]

Yes, Javik isn't as important as Leviathan, but he's still relevant, and I'd argue still essential. Mass Effect isn't just figuring out which gun to hit the Reapers with, it's about unraveling the mystery behind them and the disappearance of the Protheans, and while Leviathan answers the first, Javik answers the second.

Disappearance of the Protheans is answered in ME1 when you see the visions from a beacon and talk to Vigil, and in ME2 discover the true identity of the Collectors. Javik brings deeper understanding of long-extinct Prothean society and their physiology which is not essential to the story at all. His only connection to the story is on Thessia, when he reveals genetic modifications of the asari, which is again, not essential.

[SporkFu]

 Without him, no one would know the asari goddess is really a Prothean

Out of curiosity, have you done a playthrough without recruiting Javik -- at least until after Thessia?

 

Or... not just you, but anyone I guess. I'm curious what other squadmates say on Thessia if Javik is never part of the game, like do they still say, "Gee that artwork looks prothean." or do they say, "gee that doesn't look like an asari."

[Barquiel]

Out of curiosity, have you done a playthrough without recruiting Javik -- at least until after Thessia?
 
Or... not just you, but anyone I guess. I'm curious what other squadmates say on Thessia if Javik is never part of the game, like do they still say, "Gee that artwork looks prothean." or do they say, "gee that doesn't look like an asari."

I don't have From Ashes and they say exactly that

The only difference is that in the temple, Liara is more accepting of the possibility that the Asari were guided by the Protheans if it's not Javik who tells her. If it's Javik, he's just a douche about it and Liara tells him to knock it off.

[SporkFu]

I don't have From Ashes and they say exactly that

The only difference is that in the temple, Liara is more accepting of the possibility that the Asari were guided by the Protheans if it's not Javik who tells her. If it's Javik, he's just a douche about it and Liara tells him to knock it off.

Thank you. I have taken other squadmates to Thessia in place of Javik -- for example, James in this playthrough -- but I was curious if they said something different when Javik was never there to show people what protheans did look like. Could argue that the collectors aren't an accurate depiction. 

[themikefest]

Out of curiosity, have you done a playthrough without recruiting Javik -- at least until after Thessia?

 

Or... not just you, but anyone I guess. I'm curious what other squadmates say on Thessia if Javik is never part of the game, like do they still say, "Gee that artwork looks prothean." or do they say, "gee that doesn't look like an asari."

Squadmates say nothing about the head bust or painting looking Prothean.

 

I don't have From Ashes and they say exactly that

The only difference is that in the temple, Liara is more accepting of the possibility that the Asari were guided by the Protheans if it's not Javik who tells her. If it's Javik, he's just a douche about it and Liara tells him to knock it off.

No he's not. He speaks the truth. Its Liara that has a hard time accepting that she's not the expert she thought she was about studying the Protheans and can't accept the fact the her own government hoard the beacon for their own gain

[SporkFu]

Squadmates say nothing about the head bust or painting looking Prothean.

Thanks, Mike. In my current game, James didn't say anything about the head busts, but he did mention the painting. Can't quote it exactly because I forgot and this morning I deleted the FRAPS recording I'd made -- had almost 500 Gb of FRAPS movies  . 

[SporkFu]

Uhm, what's his insight on the Crucible? "We never finished it"?

That's actually more than anything anyone else has to say about it.  

[Barquiel]

Thanks, Mike. In my current game, James didn't say anything about the head busts, but he did mention the painting. Can't quote it exactly because I forgot and this morning I deleted the FRAPS recording I'd made -- had almost 500 Gb of FRAPS movies  .

I know Garrus and EDI delivered some remarks at the Prothean resemblances, not sure about the others.

[Voragoras]

Disappearance of the Protheans is answered in ME1 when you see the visions from a beacon and talk to Vigil, and in ME2 discover the true identity of the Collectors. Javik brings deeper understanding of long-extinct Prothean society and their physiology which is not essential to the story at all. His only connection to the story is on Thessia, when he reveals genetic modifications of the asari, which is again, not essential.

 

That's true, you do get insights, but saying "we were killed by Reapers lol" isn't enough to really explain the details of the harvest in their cycle, not in the way Javik did in his dialogues. He mentions their psychology and their resistance, as well, and discusses how futile it all was in the end.

 

I suppose we differ in that I viewed the Collector Ship as a buildup, not an answer, because they didn't really answer anything, just suggested at it. We know they were genetically enhanced, but not the details, iirc.

[themikefest]

Thanks, Mike. In my current game, James didn't say anything about the head busts, but he did mention the painting. Can't quote it exactly because I forgot and this morning I deleted the FRAPS recording I'd made -- had almost 500 Gb of FRAPS movies  . 

That's possible. Its been quite a while since I did a playthrough not recruiting him and usually when I don't, I head straight for the beacon and Vendetta without paying attention to the other artifacts.

[SporkFu]

That's possible. Its been quite a while since I did a playthrough not recruiting him and usually when I don't, I head straight for the beacon and Vendetta without paying attention to the other artifacts.

Ah... well I did recruit Javik very early on this time around, so although I took James to Thessia in his place, I expected James to note the similarities at some point. Seems funny for them to comment on prothean similarities if no one is supposed to know what a prothean really looks like, heh. 

[SporkFu]

I know Garrus and EDI delivered some remarks at the Prothean resemblances, not sure about the others.

Strange, heh. Liara should've called them on that, at least on the basis of them not being as much of a prothean expert as she is. 

[Farangbaa]

Liara isn't essential

I know you're blinded by hatred, but come on man. You've played the games a gazillion times, you should know that without Liara there's no going to Ilos, without going to Ilos there's no ME2, withouth ME2 there's no ME3 and without ME3 the Reapers win.

You may not like that she's essential, but that's besides the point. The story completely breaks down after ME1 without Liara, because you know: Shepard is dead. Could someone else have filled her place? Sure, but that's not how the story went.

This is completely opposite to Javik, who only adds flavour but doesn't prevent the story from happening at all. The Reapers don't win without Javik, you do. But without Liara, the Reapers win. You may dislike this all you want, but that's the story.
 

Never said it did

Great, then why say that in response to me saying Javik isn't essential to the story? Oh yeah, that's right, you need to say something negative about the Asari. Pathetic.

[Farangbaa]

Strange, heh. Liara should've called them on that, at least on the basis of them not being as much of a prothean expert as she is.

Or well, you know, them not knowing what a Prothean looks like.

(not entirely sure about the appeance of the Protheans not being known. Vigil doesn't have an appearance, I know that for sure, but theycould've known from other sources I suppose)

[Farangbaa]

Yes, Javik isn't as important as Leviathan, but he's still relevant, and I'd argue still essential. Mass Effect isn't just figuring out which gun to hit the Reapers with, it's about unraveling the mystery behind them and the disappearance of the Protheans, and while Leviathan answers the first, Javik answers the second.

We're using different meaning of essential I think. Read my response to themikefest. Javik not being around doesn't prevent the story from happening. He gives you all kinds of cool info and I love the guy, I really do, almost always take him everywhere, but calling him essential to the story is nonsense to me. The Reapers don't win if you leave Javik in stasis.

Compare this to, for instance, Liara or Miranda. Without Liara and Miranda Shepard is dead, done for, and ME2 never evens happens thus the Reapers win.

(The Leviathan DLC not happening is a little bit iffy here, because it doesn't prevent the story from happening, but you are left with having no idea where the Catalyst came from. You could say that without Leviathan there's no Catalyst and thus no Mass Effect at all, I suppose)

Some people on here seem to confuse their love/hatred for specific characters with essentiality.

[SporkFu]

Or well, you know, them not knowing what a Prothean looks like.

(not entirely sure about the appeance of the Protheans not being known. Vigil doesn't have an appearance, I know that for sure, but theycould've known from other sources I suppose)

Well they know from ME2 that the collectors are genetically-modified protheans, but saying the depictions in the temple of athame are prothean because they kinda look like collectors could be disputed, if Liara wanted to say, "Look a**holes, I'm the prothean expert here. You guys are full of sh*t." 

[themikefest]

I know you're blinded by hatred, but come on man. You've played the games a gazillion times, you should know that without Liara there's no going to Ilos, without going to Ilos there's no ME2, withouth ME2 there's no ME3 and without ME3 the Reapers win.

You may not like that she's essential, but that's besides the point. The story completely breaks down after ME1 without Liara, because you know: Shepard is dead. Could someone else have filled her place? Sure, but that's not how the story went.

This is completely opposite to Javik, who only adds flavour but doesn't prevent the story from happening at all. The Reapers don't win without Javik, you do. But without Liara, the Reapers win. You may dislike this all you want, but that's the story.
 

If she's that essential why isn't she required earlier in ME1? All she does is mention Ilos.

 

Without Liara the reapers win? Had the stupid ME1 characters made an effort to find a way to stop the reapers instead of scattering like cockraoches all over the galaxy, they may of found the plans on Mars or/and Javik on Eden Prime? Why couldn't Anderson have Joker fly a shuttle with Ashley/Kaidan, Garrus, Liara and others to Eden Prime to find more besides the beacon? Why couldn't he give permission for them to look at the artifacts on Mars?

 

With Shepard dead, the threat of the reapers were dead as well. So all they did was shrug their shoulders doing nothing. How pathetic.

 

 

Great, then why say that in response to me saying Javik isn't essential to the story? Oh yeah, that's right, you need to say something negative about the Asari. Pathetic.

It was an observation. How is it a negative comment when its true? Oh yeah, you just wanted to say something negative about me not liking the asari. Pathetic

[Farangbaa]

If she's that essential why isn't she required earlier in ME1? All she does is mention Ilos.

Lol. Without her, no Ilos. No Ilos, no Conduit. No Conduit, Reapers win. Timing is completely irrelevant here, without her, the story blocks and has no continuation. Which is why you have to recruit her.

Maybe you should try beating the game without Liara to prove your point?
 

Without Liara the reapers win? Had the stupid ME1 characters made an effort to find a way to stop the reapers instead of scattering like cockraoches all over the galaxy, they may of found the plans on Mars or/and Javik on Eden Prime? Why couldn't Anderson have Joker fly a shuttle with Ashley/Kaidan, Garrus, Liara and others to Eden Prime to find more besides the beacon? Why couldn't he give permission for them to look at the artifacts on Mars?
 
With Shepard dead, the threat of the reapers were dead as well. So all they did was shrug their shoulders doing nothing. How pathetic.

 
Oooh, we're going to tell a completely different story now to make Liara not essential to it. Headcanon for the win!

 

 

It was an observation. How is it a negative comment when its true? Oh yeah, you just wanted to say something negative about me not liking the asari. Pathetic

Do you do this all the time? Breaking into conversations with your mad cool observation skills which have nothing to do with the discussion at hand? Whats the point in that?

You know damn well what we were discussing and your comment on it had no meaning whatsoever

[themikefest]

Maybe you should try beating the game without Liara to prove your point?
 

How about you worry about what you should and should not do and not worry about what I should or should not do?

 

Oooh, we're going to tell a completely different story now to make Liara not essential to it. Headcanon for the win!
 

 It shows the ME1 characters didn't make any attempt to find a way to stop the reapers. It seems they need to have someone hold their hand to get things done. Apparently these characters can't think for themselves.

 

You know damn well what we were discussing and your comment on it had no meaning whatsoever

And you know damn well I made an observation, but you had to find a way to say something negative about me not liking the asari

[Farangbaa]

How about you worry about what you should and should not do and not worry about what I should or should not do?

Hahah oh Mikey, I hope your grasp is strong, wouldn't want those straws to be taken away by the wind. My point is that you can't beat the game without Liara. That makes her essential.

Do you know what essential means?
 

It shows the ME1 characters didn't make any attempt to find a way to stop the reapers. It seems they need to have someone hold their hand to get things done. Apparently these characters can't think for themselves.

HAHAHAHA. That's the story Mike! The story was written as such that they are incompetent morons. You can headspin all you want to make it so that Liara really wasn't necessary, but that's not what happened. What's happened is that they are incompetant morons, making it necessary to revive Shepard because else the Reapers win.

And you know damn well I made an observation, but you had to find a way to say something negative about me not liking the asari

Lol how old are you? 14?

And again, what was the point in declaring your observation in a discussion about the essentiality of Javik to the story? Did Javik revealing that Athame was really a Prothean make it so that the Reapers could be beaten? Because I'm pretty sure I beat the game just fine without the From Ashes DLC.

And again, that's something that cannot be done without Liara or Shepard. Or Miranda for that matter, or Mordin. (though their essentiality is confined to ME2)

[Vazgen]

Let's agree that Liara is made essential to the story by the developers. Like it or not, you can't finish ME1 without recruiting her. She is essential to the existing story, Javik isn't. 

You can say it's developers' fault, it would've been easy to make the story not to require Liara. Just unlock Feros after Virmire and have the Cipher and Shiala piece together the visions. However we're stuck with letting her into Shepard's mind at least once. I don't like it, but it's what we have to deal with.

[Farangbaa]

Let's agree that Liara is made essential to the story by the developers. Like it or not, you can't finish ME1 without recruiting her. She is essential to the existing story, Javik isn't.

Lol that's not going to happen.

I'm looking forward to headspin #8231986 by Mikey as to what should've happened to not make her essential. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last.

Btw, not only can you not beat ME1 without her, ME2 simply doesn't happen without her, even if the game did offer you some other way to get to Ilos in ME1.

Btw2, don't you mean unlock Ilos instead of Feros? I'm pretty sure Feros is unlocked before Virmire, whatever you do

[Vazgen]

Lol that's not going to happen.

I'm looking forward to headspin #8231986 by Mikey as to what should've happened to not make her essential. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last.

Btw, not only can you not beat ME1 without her, ME2 simply doesn't happen without her, even if the game did offer you some other way to get to Ilos in ME1.

Btw2, don't you mean unlock Ilos instead of Feros? I'm pretty sure Feros is unlocked before Virmire, whatever you do

No, I meant it. Hypothetically, have us visit Noveria, then unlock Virmire, then unlock Feros and then Ilos. That would've allowed us to skip Liara's quest entirely.

Her recovery of Shepard's body could've easily been circumvented as well. Make Cerberus investigate Collector activity in the same region where Normandy is destroyed and remove the comic book that only serves to further solidify Liara's value to the story.

[Farangbaa]

No, I meant it. Hypothetically, have us visit Noveria, then unlock Virmire, then unlock Feros and then Ilos. That would've allowed us to skip Liara's quest entirely.
Her recovery of Shepard's body could've easily been circumvented as well. Make Cerberus investigate Collector activity in the same region where Normandy is destroyed and remove the comic book that only serves to further solidify Liara's value to the story.

Yes it could've, but it didn't. Are we still discussing the Mass Effect story or are we in headcanon fanfic land by now?

Because in that case, I'm done here.