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Science and Evolution in the Dragon Age


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#1
The Ascendant

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You may think it strange that in a world with magic, demons and bizarre flora and fauna, something like science would barely be a factor in this world. I enjoy attempting to unraveling the mysteries of this Universe, the world of Thedas being no exception. I would greatly appreciate your views on the races and species I am attempting to analyze. 

Dragons-Unlike other Fantasy games, in Thedas Dragons are regarded as animals, impressive and powerful, but not sentient, with the only exceptions being the Old Gods/Archdemons. We know this because the Old Gods/Archdemons are capable of commanding hordes of monsters unquestioningly and are capable of making tactics and strategies. If there are any more dragons like this, we do not know. However seeing Yavanna in the Silent Grove speak to a High Dragon, the apex predator of Thedas, in an unknown language shows that they can be commanded and understand words. There are variations, the wyvern being the most notable, showing that they can adapt to their environments in order to survive.  

Humans- I imagine we arrived in the same manner as we did in this world. Howe we obtained magic however is unknown. It is heavily implied and proven that the ability to use it is a trait, usually inherited from our parents. Where it came from is unknown. But I believe we may have inherited from the elves. I'll discuss this later.

Elves-  Elves are the most similar to us of the other races on Thedas, they are however shorter than us, have longer ears and larger eyes. They can also see well in the dark, akin to a cat. According to myth, they were apparently immortal and only perished in their sleep, a state called Uthenara. The Masked Empire reveals only a percentage of the population could achieve this, the Dreamer Elves, the mages who could enter the Fade, the dream realm at will and alter it to suit themselves. When humans originally arrived, the elves interacted freely with them, and surprisingly paired with them. It doesn't take a genius to know that mating outside your own species is a dangerous thing. The risk of sexually transmitted virus' and diseases it severe enough to not introduce new ones to other races. They discovered that mating with humans produced only human children and contact with us resulted in the 'quickening'. The elves lost their immortality. This I believe was a disease introduced to the race from contact with humanity, how it was created is unknown, but since elves decided to retreat and segregate themselves from humanity, the disease was not contained and spread easily as they congregated within their cities. Humans I believe inherited their magical potential from elves. I theorize that elves are all have the 'magi trait', careful breeding encourages this trait, producing magi children. By procreating with humanity, the elves obtained a disease whilst humanity obtained a new trait into the gene pool. How they mastered it or came to understand it's potential, is either explained by the aid of rogue elves who decided to remain among the humans in bitterness of their unfair society, or they were taught by the Old Gods. I am more inclined to believe with the former. These elf blooded descendants, would eventually become the Tevinter Imperium, destroying the Elven Empire and enslaving the survivors. Increased contact with humans would have accelerated and strengthen the virus, resulting in the elves now having the lifespan of humans.

Dwarves- Like the elves, Dwarves can also see well in the dark, but considering they mostly live entirely underground, this was a necessary adaptation if they wanted to survive and prosper. Living underground, they are exposed to the magical and lethal substance known as Lyrium. This aids mages in casting spells, and helps Templars dispel magic. It is extremely addictive and unprocessed Lyrium can prove fatal. Only the Dwarves, specifically the Mining Caste, can handle it safely. The more the race was exposed to the Lyrium, the stronger the resistance becomes. This however has resulted in the entire race lacking the 'magi trait'. And while they can process Lyrium and create wondrous enchantments and objects, their is no recorded instance of a Dwarf using magic.

Qunari- The horned giants from the North, come from an unknown continent far across the sea, meaning that Thedas is perhaps not the only major landmass in the World. Given their not notable trait, that of horns, I would haphazard to guess they evolved in a manner similar to humans, but instead of primates like us, they may have evolved from a Bovine of some kind. The loss of hooves and the obtainment of hands and feet like our own, is difficult to imagine from a Bovine, but perhaps an unusual from of primate is the answer. As shown on Earth, primates are extremely adaptable and come in many shapes and forms. It maybe possible that they evolved from primates with horns? They have metallic colored skin and are have an immunity to many toxins, E.G. the saar-qamek gas and their warpaint is toxic to other races. It maybe possible that like humans, there were once Elves in their homelands and like the humans this crossbreeding introduced both magic and hornlessness. Obviously not all Qunari have both. Sten is hornless but is obviously not a mage. And many Saarebas (Qunari mages) have horns, or stubs as is the case. What happened to the Elves. Unlike their mainland cousins, it is most likely they were wiped out by either disease, war with the Qunari or a combination of both. This must have occured during the races earliest history, as the Qunari have had no contact with the rest of Thedas and no knowledge of other races until the Qunari Wars.

Thank you for reading, please comment and correct.


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#2
TheJediSaint

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Nope, it's magic all the way down.


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#3
raging_monkey

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I also believe that magic is a inheirable trait(if recessive). Ive notice that elven mage are common enough that in elves it may not be a recessive trait( bit not completly dominate). The mixing of elf and humans might have had a effect of having affected the human genome as well human mages are uncommon so fast forward a milenium and tevinter eugenics the modern day human has enough of chance to have a fair amount of magi
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#4
TheEternalStudent

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I'm not sold on mortality being an STD, and not many diseases can jump species effectively. However we don't know how similar gentically elves are to humans.

Why not just have a horned primate be the ancestor of the Qunari?

 

For now I just don't think we have enough infomation on the fauna of Thedas to create any coherent evolutionary hypothesis.

Good stuff with the dragons though.



#5
Hanako Ikezawa

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I don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory, so I can't be of much help. 



#6
Solrest

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Yavana's dragon that she calls "The Queen of the Dragons" is actually a great dragon, as she mentioned Maric awoke her once he fufilled his promise to come to the Silent Grove. High Dragons and great dragons have shown intelligence, high dragons with their dragon cults, and our first hand experience with Yavana's great dragon. I would say dragon hierarchy is as such: the Old Gods, great dragons, high dragons, dragons and lower.

 

The World of Thedas puts forth the notion that human Dreamers learned magic from the Old Gods which caused a power shift and ultimately led to the downfall of Arlathan. Magi can be found in all the races of Thedas, save dwarves, and there's nothing written to attribute the origins of magical ability to being half-elven or having elven ancestry.



#7
Battlebloodmage

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I don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory, so I can't be of much help.

You think the Maker just created everything the way they were?
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#8
The Ascendant

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Please, please don't let this devolve into an evolution vs. creationism debate. I just want to discuss the world of Thedas alone. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Respect everyone's. No exceptions. 


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#9
Kieran G.

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In a sense demons have evolved because of us. in fact as we know it, their entire world evolves and changes because of us.

 

So in a sense Demons have Adapted to our presence (a leaf frog gaining the ability to camouflage to adapt to predators) 


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#10
The Ascendant

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In a sense demons have evolved because of us. in fact as we know it, their entire world evolves and changes because of us.
 
So in a sense Demons have Adapted to our presence (a leaf frog gaining the ability to camouflage to adapt to predators)

Interesting. Demons and spirits change in an attempt to mimic mortals.

#11
raging_monkey

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Interesting. Demons and spirits change in an attempt to mimic mortals.

justice is an example of fade creature evolition. Normally he'd be the equalvent. To a rage demon but due to x factors his rage is focused(vengence).

Another example: demon of lust would in theory evolve into a demon hedonism from focusing in on itself.

Mind you this may not be how we'd define evolution but its how an observer would see it

#12
Ieldra

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I just want to discuss the world of Thedas alone. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Respect everyone's. No exceptions. 

I am not willing to respect nonsense, but I agree we should stick to Thedas. 

 

As for your hypothesis that certain traits are of elven origin, I am disinclined to believe that at this time. It is possible, obviously, but there is too little positive evidence for that claim, and that means a great number of alternative hypotheses are as likely to be true. The competing hypothesis is the dragon origin, which I personally find more interesting.   


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#13
Kieran G.

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Interesting. Demons and spirits change in an attempt to mimic mortals.

But change in itself is a evolutionary trait. so when they get to our world they evolve. Justice is really the only possession(Besides what ever flemeth is) that we have seen on a long term basis. so we don't know how the demons or spirits change when they are in thedas. except for justice who willingly went into anders but didn't forcefully possess him.

 

Again showing that maybe being around so much creativity or emotions forces them to adapt with a new emotion.



#14
Medhia_Nox

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I don't believe the designers of Thedas gave this much thought at the beginning and have simply gone with the Creationism of Thedas theory - which would be "magic". 

 

Also - Thedosian dragons are sentient, what they are not - is sapient - and even that I disagree with, I just think they can't talk and aren't interested in "explaining themselves" to mouthy little mammals. 

 

We can't really discuss things like elven immortality simply because we don't know if magic operates like science (any claim that it does is player head canon alone). 

 

The immortality thing doesn't have to operate in a reproducible manner - the humans came, the elves lost it.  That's all that can ever been known unless Bioware tells you.  There's no studying that any player can do to extrapolate and actual reason. 

 

And no - I'm not trying to crap on people having fun speculating.


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#15
metatheurgist

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The only way science wouldn't be part of Thedas would be if random crap just happened all the time for no reason at all.
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#16
Devil's Avocado

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Since magic is such a strong prominent component of DA and merely a plot device that can explain pretty much anything, it's up in the air whether we can compare the progression of races/dragons/spirits in DA to real life.

 

But for fun and assuming the races of DA came to be based upon Speciation/Evolution I have my own theory about the main races at least.

 

Humans or proto-humans as I'm going to call them are the ancestor of all sentient humanoid races we know of in DA, Humans, Elves, Dwarfs and Qunari. Humans best resemble proto-humans and why they haven't changed much over time is due to reaching an stable point where adaptation wasn't needed, they were perfect for their environment. One thing to note is they likely had small horns. Magic used to be common place yet poorly understood at first.  Some humans, likes those who were innovative and created the first ships sailed away from the continent of origin but when they arrived in Thedas it was extremely hostile, likely a land ruled by dragons. The humans who were smart enough to go underground survived. These humans in time became dwarves. Due to the proximity of lyrium, it would have been fatal for those with stronger magic potential so those who didn't, survived and went so far as to build an tolerance. From what heard about what the devs said, if a human and a dwarf had a child, they would look like an even mix, a tall dwarf or short human. This is important to note and I'll mention why below.

 I don't think the veil existed just yet and spirits lived side by side with humans. Humans that lived near denser populations of spirits also have better magic ability due needing to complete with them. Once magic was better understood some noticed that some humans were better at using magic and likely some bloody fued occurred and in end those with lesser magic potential won likely due to larger numbers, and for humans these genes disappeared for a time due to fear/mass killing. The select few that survived sailed away to Thedas. These humans likely had traits that resembled elves and since their population size was so small these traits proliferated. Thedas maybe have been less hostile by then so they could live by hiding in the forest instead of fleeing underground, thus their thin bodies came to be.

Because this event is more recent than the population of pre-dwarves, elves are more or less still humans and human genes are dominate over their genes, hence why an elven+human coupling equals a child that looks human. Dwarf couplings produce a more hybrid appearance because they've been separated from humans much longer and could possibly not even be able to have children like a mule.

Qunari seem to best resemble elves so my guess is they were part of the exodus of early elven people that broke off from the group, possibly blown far off course or had conflicting beliefs. Quite possibly more 'wild' magic users. I also believe these were some of a few humans that managed to retain a strong horn gene in their population, a trait that has become very rare by then and eventually disappeared in human populations. Elves wiped out this gene in time while the Qunari that had this horned gene and stronger bodies thrived in whatever environment required them to have them. We havn't seen/heard about a qunari+other race mix so this is probably the largest guess (plus that theory about qunari being elves that drank dragon blood is also up in the air).

So ultimately, they're still the same 'species' 


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#17
Solrest

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Since magic is such a strong prominent component of DA and merely a plot device that can explain pretty much anything, it's up in the air whether we can compare the progression of races/dragons/spirits in DA to real life.

 

But for fun and assuming the races of DA came to be based upon Speciation/Evolution I have my own theory about the main races at least.

...

So ultimately, they're still the same 'species' 

Very interesting theory of a proto-race. I've been curious about where the Humans and Qunari originally came from and why they left for a long while, but I never considered they may originate from the same race.


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#18
myahele

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I like the theory of a proto-race which then diverged into dwarves, qunari, humans and elves. The fact that they can have viable offspring which each other is telling.

 

Also, it is believed that Wyverns  and dragons shared the same ancestry.


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#19
Devil's Avocado

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I like to think of dragons and Wyevrns as cats and large cats :3 they clearly share a common ancestor but definitely different species. I figure the proto-race makes sense cause if they can bonk each other and make a healthy baby, they gotta all be the 'same'.

 

I also forgot to comment on that illness theory that OP purposed between humans and elves, it could be possible if it was a magic based STD. I can see someone wanting humans to dominate back when elves ruled or possibly disrupt the peace between humans and elves by making their children human only.

 

Or if we're talkin strictly science...there a lot of factors from inert genes, understand the purpose behind why the virus alters elven offspring to appear human for survival purposes, the virus crossing their DNA into only their gametes.  As they say, when there's doubt between multiple hypothesis, the one with the fewest assumptions is the one to mostly consider, and this one had a lot of assumptions.

 

thus why magic! works so well  :P



#20
Ieldra

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@Devil's Avocado: [hilarious name btw]

 

About your origins of the humanoid species hypothesis:

An interesting hypothesis I'm inclined to mostly agree with. That they're still the same species does not follow though. Speciation occurs when subpopulations remain separated long enough that reproduction isn't possible any more betwen them. So humans and elves would be the same species, I'm not sure about dwarves since I don't recall any statement about the possibility of a human/dwarf couple having children, and we don't have any info on the qunari either, though I suspect that the size difference alone would make it unlikely. At this time, I'm inclined to think the qunari are a separate species but dwarves are part of the human/elf/dwarf species we don't have a name for.


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#21
Dark Helmet

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@Devil's Avocado: [hilarious name btw]

 

About your origins of the humanoid species hypothesis:

An interesting hypothesis I'm inclined to mostly agree with. That they're still the same species does not follow though. Speciation occurs when subpopulations remain separated long enough that reproduction isn't possible any more betwen them. So humans and elves would be the same species, I'm not sure about dwarves since I don't recall any statement about the possibility of a human/dwarf couple having children, and we don't have any info on the qunari either, though I suspect that the size difference alone would make it unlikely. At this time, I'm inclined to think the qunari are a separate species but dwarves are part of the human/e

lf/dwarf species we don't have a name for.

 

Humans and dwarves can have children that either look like tall dwarves or shorter stocky humans. It is understandably rare considering the dwarves baseline fertility, reluctance to mate outside their own race, ect. No idea about any of the other pairings though.

 

We know Elf/Human makes a human and Human Dwarf makes a half dwarf but everything else is still a mystery.

 

Edit: I'll be looking for the original source of the first bit.



#22
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

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I don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory, so I can't be of much help. 

 

Me neither its silly



#23
The Antagonist

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God did it!



#24
Ieldra

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If you continue to provoke, be prepared for a response. Which would be....reporting the post in question, as much as I'd rather rip the argument to pieces.

 

This topic is based on the assumption that a scientific approach to the question of the various' races origins and their magic is an interesting thought-experiment. I think we should stay within the parameters of that assumption.



#25
The Antagonist

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You might as well rip it to pieces because this thread wont go anywhere