61 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Actually the OP just says read and comment. They aren't forcing anyone to agree with them. 

[Owlfriend]

It seems to me, that humans are the Basic form of sentient life in the Dragon Age World.

 

Some of them may have altered themselves magically (or have been altered), became elves and migrated to Thedas, forming a subpopulation. When Elves and Humans have children, some of the Magic is lost and the child appears human. The offspring is fully fertile. In the real world this means, that the subpopulations have not yet started to form different species.

 

As for the Dwarfes and Qunari... more magic? They seem further along on the path to a completely different species. 

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Qunari looks like a mix between Elves and Dragons. 

 

Perhaps some portion of the proto-elves in the region consumed dragon's blood and evolved to be Qunari. 

 

Btw OP, your hypothesis is interesting. 

[Devil's Avocado]

@Devil's Avocado: [hilarious name btw]

 

About your origins of the humanoid species hypothesis:

An interesting hypothesis I'm inclined to mostly agree with. That they're still the same species does not follow though. Speciation occurs when subpopulations remain separated long enough that reproduction isn't possible any more betwen them. So humans and elves would be the same species, I'm not sure about dwarves since I don't recall any statement about the possibility of a human/dwarf couple having children, and we don't have any info on the qunari either, though I suspect that the size difference alone would make it unlikely. At this time, I'm inclined to think the qunari are a separate species but dwarves are part of the human/elf/dwarf species we don't have a name for.

 

 

Thank you! ^^

Since we know so little about Qunari I figure it's up in the air with them. I played a dwarf warden and had a normal baby with Morrigan, so we know they can have children, but I can't recall which dev mentioned the hybrid description. Size difference isn't enough to rule it out since we have humans who exhibit extreme height differences, they can have healthy children and these traits are very likely to pass on since it's often genetic in nature. Take these people and put them on an island for a few thousand years and the trait will likely be a norm among them, which could explain the Qunari.

[daveliam]

Me neither its silly

Is this necessary?

[Orzammar OG]

I don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory, so I can't be of much help. 

 

Why do people still say stuff like this? A scientific theory isn't the same as a lamen's theory, rather it's an explanation of established facts.It hasn't been a debate for sometime. I guess there is no convincing those who don't wish to be convinced, but I can't help but to defend objective reality.

 

Anyway, I suspect the origin of humans on Thedas is different than IRL and I'm actually interested to see if it's delved into in Inquisition, but I doubt it will be. I've always suspected it the human's sudden appearance has something to do with the Fade.

[Orzammar OG]

Please, please don't let this devolve into an evolution vs. creationism debate. I just want to discuss the world of Thedas alone. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Respect everyone's. No exceptions. 

 

I reject this notion. It has little to do with respect; ignorance should not be encouraged and it goes against my principles to do so. You know as good as I do that opinions are irrelevant when compared to the evidence. You also knew where this thread could go and you should've been prepared for it.

 

Me neither its silly

 

Irony.

 

 

Overall, OP your post was really interesting and the thread idea was appreciated, but I feel like this forum isn't really at a place where a conversation like this can happen without turning into a war of words. I've said my piece and I'm bailing. Thanks for trying.

[The Ascendant]

While I personally support evolution, forcing people to accept it is not ok. Forcing others to believe as you do can only end poorly. So everyone please behave.

The idea that humans/elves/dwarves had a single original ancestor is interesting and while I am not opposed to divine intervention in Dragon Age, we just don't see any. Magic is in abundance and while it is incredible powerful, can it really create life? Is magic the fire of the Gods? The Dalish say magic is a gift, as does the Tevinter Imperium whereas the Chantry say it is either a gift or curse from the Maker.

[daveliam]

I tend to agree with those who see this as divergent evolution. It just makes sense to me given the huge amounts of similarities between these races. I'd love to see more about this but i have a feeling that the writers arent interested in this particular aspect of the story. I remember a particularly snippy dev response to the 'race v species' debate a few months back that indicated that they in no way feel beholden to science and that we shouldnt use real world science to explain in game phenomena. I was pretty disappointed but it is what it is.

[Medhia_Nox]

The Fade is another dimension entirely - other dimensions are not natural to our dimension.  Whatever magic does - does not have to do anything with the way we understand nature through science (nature is not science - science is an invention).  

 

That being said - the Fade is connected with Thedas - the Fade is a realm of ideas made manifest, and we are now experiencing those ideas crashing into Thedas and manifesting.

 

Human, Dwarf, Elf etc... ideas from the Fade that manifested on Thedas a LONG time ago.  

 

Who's idea they were?  Old Gods, Elf Gods, Avvar Gods, Maker - I don't really know or care.  

 

The first question is - do apes exist on Thedas, because currently to our knowledge, they do not. 

[TheEternalStudent]

The Fade is another dimension entirely - other dimensions are not natural to our dimension.  Whatever magic does - does not have to do anything with the way we understand nature through science (nature is not science - science is an invention).  

 

That being said - the Fade is connected with Thedas - the Fade is a realm of ideas made manifest, and we are now experiencing those ideas crashing into Thedas and manifesting.

 

Human, Dwarf, Elf etc... ideas from the Fade that manifested on Thedas a LONG time ago.  

 

Who's idea they were?  Old Gods, Elf Gods, Avvar Gods, Maker - I don't really know or care.  

 

The first question is - do apes exist on Thedas, because currently to our knowledge, they do not. 

Monkeys exist in Par Vollen, Sten talks about them to Shale.

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheEternalStudent:  Yes, that is true.  Though we aren't monkeys - in that discussion he does bring up the concept of how similar we are to them. I think it's Shale that wonders if we're one and the same.

 

But - monkeys could exist without apes on Thedas still potentially proving evolution impossible on Thedas. 

[TheEternalStudent]

@TheEternalStudent:  Yes, that is true.  Though we aren't monkeys - in that discussion he does bring up the concept of how similar we are to them. I think it's Shale that wonders if we're one and the same.

 

But - monkeys could exist without apes on Thedas still potentially proving evolution impossible on Thedas. 

My point was merely the presence of simians in Thedas, not some grand proof of apes. Though it is conceivably possible that A) The Qunari don't see a difference B )Thedasians evolved from monkeys. Maybe monkeys have greater magical potential than apes, and that's why we can't cast spells.

[daveliam]

@TheEternalStudent: Yes, that is true. Though we aren't monkeys - in that discussion he does bring up the concept of how similar we are to them. I think it's Shale that wonders if we're one and the same.

But - monkeys could exist without apes on Thedas still potentially proving evolution impossible on Thedas.

Evolution is, simply put, the biological changes in a species over time. So as long as species change in anyway in response to the natural environment, evolution is possible.

I think people are looking at evolution as only being macroevolution leading to speciation and that's not really the case.

[Devil's Avocado]

Evolution is, simply put, the biological changes in a species over time. So as long as species change in anyway in response to the natural environment, evolution is possible.

I think people are looking at evolution as only being macroevolution leading to speciation and that's not really the case.

it's changes in a population to clarify. 

 

There could be a primate or at least some type of bipedal common ancestor that all these races stem from, anyone recall the ghasts from MotA? They could be largely affected by magic, but they have the basic bipedal structure that humans have and could be very distantly related.

[Daerog]

Certainly it is fun to try to understand or theorize the past of Thedas. However, throwing evolution, Earth evolution that is, into Thedas does seem to be confusing. As I don't see how humans would be just like us (ignoring the magic part) as the environment and influence of the Fade would probably produce different results if it was strictly Earth evolution.

 

So, in that regard, I don't see "humans, elves, qunari, and dwarves share common ancestor" as agreeable. It is a fantasy setting, so they can just go "ya, they may have evolved to an extent (see dwarf resistance to magic), and they can mate with each other and produce fertile offspring, but they don't have a common ancestor."

 

Obviously there is science in Thedas, as there are scholars and philosophers, and there are many that pursue scientific studies (Dagna for one, even Circle mages since magic is studied and categorized).

 

Dragons seem to have a connection to the Veil and the Fade somehow, from comments from the comics, but to what extent I don't know.

 

There is evolution, as in adaptation like with the dwarves, but I don't think it has to follow Earth's theory, like how genus and species are understood.

 

Do we even know if Thedas is a planet? There are mariners and navigators for ships, so there is probably astronomy, but the world could just be a Two Sphere Universe as understood by Plato, with the Fade being outside it or whatever and the Veil being like Aether or whatever.

 

Just some thoughts that popped up from reading this thread...

[Solrest]

Do we even know if Thedas is a planet? There are mariners and navigators for ships, so there is probably astronomy, but the world could just be a Two Sphere Universe as understood by Plato, with the Fade being outside it or whatever and the Veil being like Aether or whatever.

The world  of Thedas has two moons, seasons, and a yearly cycle much like our own. All details that point towards the writers intending it to indeed be a planet and on a rotation very similar to the Earth's.

[Medhia_Nox]

@daveliam: And we have no proof of that as of yet.

 

You cannot call the elven loss of immortality (if real) to be any form of evolution we have yet developed. 

 

You can't just tack science keywords on to things for validity and relevance either.  (I'm not saying you are - "you" is to be understood generally)

 

===

 

It's painfully clear (and totally cool) that Bioware didn't originally intend for it to be "one of those fantasy worlds" (meaning - one of those popular worlds geeks go nuts over) when they first designed it.

 

The elven society - supposedly advanced - was 8000 years (that would be 8000 years of civilization) - we had much of the world plotted out (Old World) in about four - five thousand.  And these elves supposedly had things like teleporting Eluvians and all sorts of advanced culture?  And if the insane claims of them acting so slowly are true - they'd have died out because nature doesn't operate on that timeframe - crops would never be harvested - winter would never be prepared for - etc. etc.

 

This isn't counting the Tevinter Imperium of humans that "supposedly" came from beyond Par Vollen (yet no maps?) and currently - Orlais which is "supposedly" technologically Late Medieval France (plate mail). 

 

While it's absolutely true that not everything has to advance in the same fashion - the fact that next to nothing advances in such a fashion makes it very clear that you cannot apply real world "study" to Thedas and expect actual results.

 

@ComedicSociopathy:  In the case of Thedas...  Indeed.

[Daerog]

The world  of Thedas has two moons, seasons, and a yearly cycle much like our own. All details that point towards the writers intending it to indeed be a planet and on a rotation very similar to the Earth's.

 

Not really. The Two Sphere System does work with moon(s), seasons, moving sun, constellations, moving planets, etc., but in that system the Earth is fixed and does not revolve around the Sun and it is a pretty enclosed system and the universe is not that big compared to how we understand it now. It was mathematically sound for a long time as well, which is why the heliocentric or geocentric argument lasted for as long as it did, because geocentric made more sense until more visual data revealed otherwise.

 

Song of Ice and Fire also has moon, sun, and seasons, but the seasons vary in time and doubtful it acts like a revolving planet.

 

I think it would be interesting if the two sphere system was used for Thedas.

Elder Scrolls also has an interesting universe set up...

[Ferretinabun]

 

It doesn't take a genius to know that mating outside your own species is a dangerous thing. The risk of sexually transmitted virus' and diseases it severe enough to not introduce new ones to other races.

 

That's not quite true. Some diseases are indeed sexually transmitted and can cross the species barrier (and are often dangerous when they do), but this is uncommon. The result of mating outside of your species is that it simply will not work - the genes are simply too different to produce a viable offspring.

 

Some closely-related species can produce hybrids (ligers, mules, etc.,) but these are generally sterile, and the parent species were extremely closely related anyway.

 

If humans and elves can mate to produce healthy young, it can only mean that they are basically the same species.

 

And the idea that the child will be 100% human is total nonsense. The child will have to carry elves genes, even if they are recessive. Otherwise the child would basically be a clone of the human parent.

 

Genetics won't make much sense in this world. Better to call it 'magic' and not dwell on it.

[Devil's Avocado]

 

 

Do we even know if Thedas is a planet? There are mariners and navigators for ships, so there is probably astronomy, but the world could just be a Two Sphere Universe as understood by Plato, with the Fade being outside it or whatever and the Veil being like Aether or whatever.

 

 

Gaider recently gave some clarity to what Thedas is at least to the people of Thedas

http://dgaider.tumbl...en-asked-before



 

[Ieldra]

But - monkeys could exist without apes on Thedas still potentially proving evolution impossible on Thedas.

There is no requirement, in order for evolution to take place, that any species continues to exist beyond the point where it split off another. Also any argument that is based on the assumption that we have complete data about Thedas' species is flawed. The thought experiment in the OP assumes that things might have worked on Thedas in similar ways to our own world. The question of whether things actually have worked in similar ways cannot be answered with any confidence in either direction.

[daveliam]

@daveliam: And we have no proof of that as of yet.

 

 

Have no proof for what?  That the specie in Thedas evolve?  I never claimed that we do.  I simply clarified a misuse of the term "evolution". 

 

My personal belief is that there is compelling evidence for divergent evolution from a common ancestor for the four playable races.  I would need to see more evidence to be able to state anything beyond that, though.  I certainly can't dismiss it based on what we know either.

[KaiserShep]

Please, please don't let this devolve into an evolution vs. creationism debate. I just want to discuss the world of Thedas alone. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Respect everyone's. No exceptions. 

While I don't think that this forum is the best place for this sort of discussion anyway, I don't believe that opinions are sacrosanct and must automatically be respected. I prefer to consider and either accept or reject. People are entitled to voice their thoughts, just as I am entitled to criticize at my leisure.

[Inquisitor7]

No...