359 réponses à ce sujet

[Incantrix]

 

 

To rule you need to qualify as one. Not born as one. 

 

 

The irony is that monarchies are exactly what you hate. 

 

They are born into leadership and not earned. Thedas has plenty of monarchies. 

[Steelcan]

Aside from that one time where other magisters had the archon killed? Or the long series of fights over who'd get to claim the site that would eventually become Kirkwall?

I'm not talking about assassinations or petty disputes

 

I'm talking full fledged civil war

[lordsaren101]

Say what you will about democracies and republics, but the heads of states aren't allowed to rape their underlings wives in full view of everyone else, then seize the assets and property of those wronged if they raise objection.
 
Wall Street favoritism is a far cry from the abuses of Caligula, Elgalbalus, and such

No...they have found new and more intricate ways to rape.

[Ieldra]

I believe mages can co-exist - but that it take a specific type of mage which does not consider him/herself superior based on the ability to do magic.  It also requires those mages to defend mundanes against such type of mages.

I concur.
However, the same applies to nobles who consider themselves better because of their family tree. Or rich merchants who think anything's acceptable that can be bought.
 

Otherwise - let the a-hole mage farm.  Why do you think Tevinter has slaves?  Because a bunch of pompous a-hole mages would never do menial chores.  The same - if Felassan is to be believed - of Arlathan.   Mages MUST keep slaves - they're too pompous and self-righteous to belittle themselves as they are "studying such important arcane lore" to do anything but have their heads up their magical asses.

I can't see any reason why mages would be less willing to pay for their servants than anyone else.
 
 

That I hardly seem to see mage players who don't consider themselves either intellectually or genetically superior to their lessers on the boards - I don't think it would be accurate to depict a large population of Thedosian mages who would want to actually "Serve man and not rule over him."

You misrepresent the problem. Nobody likes to be *forced* into service, and nobody likes to be told that it's their duty to serve man by an ideology that reviles them at the same time and doesn't even leave you enough choice to define what such service means. The existing setup is an insult even to those who would recognize an obligation to use their power for the greater good. Also, why would a mage want to rule anything more than anyone else would?

For every mage who wants to put their opinion that they're better into practice there are people equally determined to leash them for their own benefit and tell them they're lesser beings. You're blind if you don't recognize the same type of mindset on the pro-templar side.

[HaHa365]

I believe mages can co-exist - but that it take a specific type of mage which does not consider him/herself superior based on the ability to do magic.  It also requires those mages to defend mundanes against such type of mages.

 

Otherwise - let the a-hole mage farm.  Why do you think Tevinter has slaves?  Because a bunch of pompous a-hole mages would never do menial chores.  The same - if Felassan is to be believed - of Arlathan.   Mages MUST keep slaves - they're too pompous and self-righteous to belittle themselves as they are "studying such important arcane lore" to do anything but have their heads up their magical asses.  

 

That I hardly seem to see mage players who don't consider themselves either intellectually or genetically superior to their lessers on the boards - I don't think it would be accurate to depict a large population of Thedosian mages who would want to actually "Serve man and not rule over him." 

 

As a mage - that means if the mages are not to going to police themselves - then I must assist the mundanes in policing them.  

  

Replace magic with wealth, and you've described every other nation in Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not talking about assassinations or petty disputes

 

I'm talking full fledged civil war

So, wait; you see civil war as a necessary benchmark of political freedom (for rich aristocrats)?

[lordsaren101]

Inneffective monsters generally had short reigns or were killed...Unfortunately in democracies such mercies are not adhered to

[Super Drone]

Ah, yes, I'm so glad to see that rich aristocrats are ensured their rights... not that Tevinter exactly seems like an absolute dictatorship, given that the archon still clearly needs to listen to the Senate consisting of the Imperium's own rich aristocrats.

 

If I was an elf mundane, I'd pretty much see it as six of one, half a dozen of the other. If I was an elf mage, I'd vastly prefer Tevinter.

 

The Magna Carta was the first step in creating a democratic society. Removing absolute authority from one person to the hands of a few will always be the first step to putting power in the hands of everyone.  Fereldan may not be that much better than everywhere else now, but it has the potential to be in the future. Even this generation could see change, seeing as how the current possible King could be someone who is quite liberal, judging from what we know of him.

 

Because Tevinter is based on Mage Supremacy as a core of it's culture, it will never change. Mundanes will always be chattel, why would the Magisters think any differently?

[Xilizhra]

The Magna Carta was the first step in creating a democratic society. Removing absolute authority from one person to the hands of a few will always be the first step to putting power in the hands of everyone.  Ferelden may not be that much better than everywhere else now, but it has the potential to be in the future. Even this generation could see change, seeing as how the current possible King could be someone who is quite liberal, judging from what we know of him.

 

Because Tevinter is based on Mage Supremacy as a core of it's culture, it will never change. Mundanes will always be chattel, why would the Magisters think any differently?

That had been figured out way back in antiquity; the Magna Carta was a small stumble on the way back to heights that had been fallen from.

 

I'm not saying that Tevinter is the best government for the future, but the idea of a "best government" is still in the future, and it may be quite far off. We don't know which direction Inquisition will take us.

[Steelcan]

So, wait; you see civil war as a necessary benchmark of political freedom (for rich aristocrats)?

the ability to dispute what he crown says.  The fact that they can rise up speaks for their political freedoms

[Steelcan]

That had been figured out way back in antiquity; the Magna Carta was a small stumble on the way back to heights that had been fallen from.

You don't buy into the Norman Yoke idea do you?

 

King John wasn't particularly horrible either, raising taxes to pay for crusades may be unpopular, but someone's gotta pay for it.

[TheJediSaint]

Inneffective monsters generally had short reigns or were killed...Unfortunately in democracies such mercies are not adhered to

Yeah, solving political disputes without violence really sucks.

[TheEternalStudent]

The Magna Carta was the first step in creating a democratic society. Removing absolute authority from one person to the hands of a few will always be the first step to putting power in the hands of everyone.  Fereldan may not be that much better than everywhere else now, but it has the potential to be in the future. Even this generation could see change, seeing as how the current possible King could be someone who is quite liberal, judging from what we know of him.

 

Because Tevinter is based on Mage Supremacy as a core of it's culture, it will never change. Mundanes will always be chattel, why would the Magisters think any differently?

Tevinter would change as greater diversity entered the upper class.  They deny rights to mundanes, but anyone, regardless of belief or species, can become an elite. Tevinter is built in such a way that it's difficult to amass power while still retaining integrity,  The rest of the nations taking a hard line against slavery would dry up Tevinter's supply, forcing them to adapt, likely through industrialization. This would open a new path to amassing power aside from using blood magic, allowing new ideas to permeate the culture, while still maintaing mage-centric power.

[Br3admax]

As a more gruesome punishment than death?  That's a common reason for wanting to use it on certain mages...

Circles are the only ones who are able to pass the RoT, and the Circles are independent of the monarchy, the only ones who would care to make mundanes Tranquil. It's also a waste of a rare resource.  

[Sir DeLoria]

...now Alistair, and hes an idiot.

What? Pfft, no way...

Spoiler

[lil yonce]

My canon!inquisitor doesn't claim that co-existence is impossible, and she isn't a mage supremacist, but in effect her positions may amount to the same thing. Some may see it that way at least. Resolutionist mindset. Liberate the mages. End the templar order. Dismantle the Chantry. If it came to mages dominating or being dominated, she'd support the former and tell mundanes that they must be an underclass because empowered they're too great a threat to the security and rights of other men.

[Br3admax]

I'm not seeing how, given that Rome had a similar law about being able to do whatever you wanted to your own slaves, and corruption of the ruling class exists literally everywhere while having nothing to do with magic.

Are you implying that because Rome did something, it's okay? The fact that magic is involved as well will still add the problems that come along with it, compounded with other corruption. Assassinations of others while they sleep the least of them. 

[The Baconer]

I don't mind the idea of mages becoming landowners or even statesmen, but a magocracy is a waste of time.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra2:  Oh, the Templar issue is pretty much the same.  The Templars, people who have earned their power to police others by the worst sort of bigotry training, now simply abuse that power and police mages through paranoia and fear.  

 

It is perhaps true that some, many, mages would "work" for a living - but who would want to hire them without policing them?  Every time your employer disagrees with you he's got to worry about whether or not you're going to turn into a slobbery demon and destroy everything he owns.  

 

I'd much rather hire a mundane doctor - than worry about whether the mage I hired is one day going to kill the entire hospital because of a really emotional day and a demon just "snuck in".

 

And - being paid by mundanes isn't "mage supremacy".  It's equal footing.

 

And why would other mages pay anyone for things they could probably do themelves?  That's why Tevinter is a slave state - the Magisters don't have to worry nearly as much about an economy if their stock and trade is slaves (who do the work and make what money they need for them).

 

Somebody needs to do the important work while mages are locked away in their ivory towers.  If scientists are to be used - the whole lot of them would die in days while uneducated survivalists would go on - were a situation to happen where modern conveniences collapsed.  

 

Then of course there's blood magic.  The first time a mage gets upset... BLOOD MAGIC.  You have a neighborly dispute?  BLOOD MAGIC.

 

The Magisters of course solve this problem with Templars and Tranquility and far more draconian laws than the rest of Thedas.

 

The blame is absolutely on both sides - but it has far less to do with "mundane ignorance" and more to do with a cycle nobody is interested in stopping.

[Xilizhra]

Are you implying that because Rome did something, it's okay? The fact that magic is involved as well will still add the problems that come along with it, compounded with other corruption. Assassinations of others while they sleep the least of them. 

I'm saying that magocracy is by no means required for brutality.

[Super Drone]

My canon!inquisitor doesn't claim that co-existence is impossible, and she isn't a mage supremacist, but in effect her positions may amount to the same thing. Some may see it that way at least. Resolutionist mindset. Liberate the mages. End the templar order. Dismantle the Chantry. If it came to mages dominating or being dominated, she'd support the former and tell mundanes that they must be an underclass because empowered they're too great a threat to the security and rights of other men.

 

Wait, what? You want to take away the right of some men (the majority in fact) to preserve the right of other men?

 

That's okay because.... what, Mages are teh awes0me?

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm not seeing how, given that Rome had a similar law about being able to do whatever you wanted to your own slaves, and corruption of the ruling class exists literally everywhere while having nothing to do with magic.

Only in very early Rome, in later years slaves were partially protected by law, could file complaints against their masters, vote, hold land and of course be freed from/by their masters. While they themselves wouldn't (Libertini had no right to run for office), a freed slave's children would be counted as full citizens with full rights.

[Br3admax]

I'm saying that magocracy is by no means required for brutality.

I'm sorry; why does that matter? You claimed it wasn't inherently worse, but since a magocracy inherently has greater problems, given the nature of magic, that's wrong in every way. 

[Xilizhra]

I'm sorry; why does that matter? You claimed it wasn't inherently worse, but since a magocracy inherently has greater problems, given the nature of magic, that's wrong in every way. 

Only if you see the style of individual acts of brutality as being more significant than the existence of the concept, which I don't.

[thats1evildude]

Mages should rule. When Tevinter ruled the world was united, not the tribal mess that brews today.

 

No, it wasn't. The magisters frequently warred amongst themselves and there were slave revolts. They also warred with the barbarians on the fringes of their empire.