359 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Theres is no stance to take, beacuse mages ARE superior.

Ask yourself this: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? Doesn't matter where.

I don't know about others, but I would at least hesitate before I say yes. At least. The claim that mages are superior rings hollow in a world where Malcolm Hawke can say he wouldn't wish his magic on anyone else and that comes across as a plausible position to take.

As for firearms, the combination "powder keg + fireball" does not appear very appealing to me. It works for the qunari dreadnoughts because their ships can remain out of range of enemy mages' fireballs and because most of Thedas' nations don't have (enough) mages in their employ, but that wouldn't work so well in land combat, and with the right type of ship, even that advantage can be countered to some degree. There is a reason why Tevinter has held out against the Qunari. IMO, for firearms to become the great equalizer against magic, you'd need an industrial revolution and mass produced firearms and ammo that can be used at very long ranges. Probably late 19th century technology.

[raging_monkey]

Ask yourself this: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? Doesn't matter where.I don't know about others, but I would at least hesitate before I say yes. At least. The claim that mages are superior rings hollow in a world where Malcolm Hawke can say he wouldn't wish his magic on anyone else and that comes across as a plausible position to take.

mal was a odd one with little info available kinda hard to say what his full opinions were and we lack context in legacy sometimes.... imo

[Magister Caedus]

Ask yourself this: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? Doesn't matter where.

Yup. No hesitation.

 I would likely be killed or made tranquil, but I'd still say yes. I would try to be isolated enough not to be noticed outside of the circle. Might try to make my way to Tevinter, or seek out the Grey Wardens though.

 

Edit: My reasoning: Such abilities would be too difficult for me to pass up.

[Ieldra]

mal was a odd one with little info available kinda hard to say what his full opinions were and we lack context in legacy sometimes.... imo

Again, ask yourself: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? You can even choose the place. Consider as the alternative a person with access to the same kind of education and comforts as a Circle mage, but with no magic.

[Icy Magebane]

Again, ask yourself: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? You can even choose the place. Consider as the alternative a person with access to the same kind of education and comforts as a Circle mage, but with no magic.

A lot of mages survive for years without ever becoming abominations... I think I could do the same if I had the right training early on.  So yeah, I'd take the power, for sure. 

 

Heavy risk, but the priiiiize... (sorry, couldn't resist... )

[Ieldra]

Yup. No hesitation.
I would likely be killed or made tranquil, but I'd still say yes. I would try to be isolated enough not to be noticed outside of the circle. Might try to make my way to Tevinter, or seek out the Grey Wardens though.

Well, I'd *probably* also say yes, but the risk of possession would nullify any feeling of superiority. The claim rings hollow where demons can more plausibly claim superiority over you because you're always on the defensive against them (Hmm....actually that's something to think about: could mages go on the offense in this?).

The point here is that the answer isn't a total no-brainer, like it would be in most other fantasy worlds. To say no is a plausible answer. And that means the claim "mages are superior" is plausibly contestable.

@Icy Magebane:
LOL, that quote is very apt. Why are the worst lines always those we never forget

[Magister Caedus]

A lot of mages survive for years without ever becoming abominations... 

Their whole lives even.

 

 

Well, I'd *probably* also say yes, but the risk of possession would nullify any feeling of superiority. The claim rings hollow where demons can more plausibly claim superiority over you because you're always on the defensive against them (Hmm....actually that's something to think about: could mages go on the offense in this?).

The point here is that the answer isn't a total no-brainer, like it would be in most other fantasy worlds.

Inquisitor Trevelyan: Demon Hunter!

[Ieldra]

As for mages living their whole lives without becoming possessed: quite true, and for the majority of them even, but the price is eternal vigilance. The mental discipline will likely become somewhat automatic over the years, and for most of the time, demon whispers will be nothing more than a minor nuisance, similar to a minor case of tinnitus perhaps, but it can flare up in moments of high passion, and even a small risk carries weight if the results of a failure are so utterly disastrous. Given the choice, it is plausible to answer "No, I'm not cut out for a life like that".

 

That some of us here, including myself, would take the risk is beside the point.

[Xiltas]

I'm usually for co-existence and peace as well.

And I'm all for the destruction of the Circle in its current form, but to put the minds of the common people at ease, and because I think it's necessary, the Mages still need some kind of school where they learn to control their magic (and open up to the idea of other kinds of magic as well, like the Shapeshifting school) and where they can live together with their families.

Also, Mages would police themselves since they know best how to resolve problems of magic nature.

 

I don't think that this would end up the same as in Tevinter, since their mindset was inherently different because of the Empire's past.

[Dean_the_Young]

I do not see how this statement applies to anything I have said.

 

Your desired dialogue theme will not be plausible if Bioware does not create it. I do not believe Bioware will create a dialogue theme unique to only one character class.

 

If Bioware would not create and support it, it is not a plausible position to expect to be available. It would be more plausible if it were an ideology not unique to one class. If 'mage supremacy' were a dialogue theme that both mages and non-mages could express, in much the same manner that 'mages are dangerous and should be watched' is a theme that both mages and non-mages share but are expressed in slightly different ways, it would be more plausible by virtue of being more likely to be supported.

 

I do not see how this statement makes sense.

 

Your desired dialogue theme is unique to one class, mages. That does not make it a counterpart to an already existing theme that already is supported for mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

Weren't at least two of those Dalish clans destroyed because of external factors that had nothing to do with their relationship with their mages? The clan in DA: 2 could potentially be destroyed because of how you handle Merrill's companion quest but even in that situation it's Hawke who can decided to kill them or not, right? The same token goes towards the Rivaini whose seers were destroyed because the templars, an external factor, decided to get involved and upset their culture with their own ideology. 

 

By that logic, the fact that external agitators not of the Circle were at play in the Circle crisis would invalidate that as a crisis of the relationship with mages. Without non-Circle apostates, Tevinter agitators, and implicitly the Big Bad of DAI itself, the current crisis wouldn't have taken shape.

 

Of course, it'd would be silly to say that because external factors work with internal factors to cause results. The Clan in DA:2 could potentially be destroyed because of how Hawke handled Merrill's companion quest... but only because Dalish mage-mundane relations had developed in such a way that mages are naturally Dalish Keepers, and the Keeper system allowed the mage leadership to pursue it's own private interests over the interests of the Clan. In a different system of mage-mundane relations, say one which is not a mageocracy, Merrill's scenario would have been much less likely to occur: the Keeper position likely would not exist as such at all, and socially awkward Merrill almost certainly would never have been brought up as a leadership figure to create the bond.

 

The same token of inter-dependence of factors also applies to the Rivaini. They would have been destroyed without the Templars... but the Templars wouldn't have destroyed them without the nature of the mundane-mage relations being considered as well. Annullments don't occur in a void.

[Ieldra]

@Dean_the_Young:

Ah, I see. Well, it is a political counterpart - we do have mages ruled by non-mages, and what we're discussing is a state of things where non-mages would be ruled by mages. That's what I meant.

 

Also, as someone else already pointed out, with "plausible" I meant politically/philosophically plausible as a reasonably rational in-world ideology, independently from the question of whether we would actually be able to adopt it in dialogue. Also, I do not agree. We do have a state of non-mageborn supremacy that supports the other classes, if you want to break it down to that, so it's perfectly plausible that the counterpart for the mageborn will be made available as a theme. Of course I don't know and actually I don't care that much, and it's not what this topic was intended to be about, but it should be perfectly possible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hasty generalization...wealth and magic, and how they are perceived in Thedas, are more similar than you let on.

 

If I ignore the substantial difference in how things work and affect other things, lots of things are more similar than I would let on. But then, if I did that I would make worse analogies that ignore major differences.

 

Wealth is influential because people want it. It is transferable, an enabling factor in allowing anyone to get something, and it's primary form of influence is in convincing others to voluntarily change their actions in exchange for it. Money is transactional form of influence that is not limited to the original holder.

 

Magic's influence has historically and primarily been coercive in nature. It is not transferable, limited to use by the mages themselves, and the primary and historic forms of influence have involved killing great deals of mundanes until they accept conditions and social norms that favor the mages themselves. Magic is a coercive form of influence: no mage elite in any national or tribal culture has gained or stayed in their positions of influence by being seen as benevolent forces of charity.

 

 

As for how they are perceived in Thedas, no one expects the 1% in Thedas to become insane abominations or resort to blood sacrifice and mind control if they aren't watched carefully. That might seem plausible to fringes of the Occupy Wall Street movement were it even possible, but Occupy doesn't exist in Thedas. In Thedas, wealth has a legitimacy that magic and the holders of it can only dream of.

[Dean_the_Young]

@Dean_the_Young:

Ah, I see. Well, it is a political counterpart - we do have mages ruled by non-mages, and what we're discussing is a state of things where non-mages would be ruled by mages. That's what I meant.

 

 

I do think it's plausible in the future- especially a game in/of Tevinter. I just also think it would warrant being an ideology that isn't limited to one player class.

 

 

Also, as someone else already pointed out, with "plausible" I meant politically/philosophically plausible as a reasonably rational in-world ideology, independently from the question of whether we would actually be able to adopt it in dialogue.

 

 

Mage supremacy ideologies already exist in-world, even if they haven't been explored in detail, so I think it's perfectly reasonable. I'd be amazed if the Tevinter Circle doesn't have lessons about how Templars are constantly raping and torturing mages and using BSN-level hyperbole as a cautionary tale about what happens if mages are restricted by mundanes.
 

 

Also, I do not agree. We do have a state of non-mageborn supremacy that supports the other classes, if you want to break it down to that, so it's perfectly plausible that the counterpart for the mageborn will be made available as a theme. Of course I don't know and actually I don't care that much, and it's not what this topic was intended to be about, but it should be perfectly possible.

 

Anything is possible, for enough resources.

 

As for your specific ideology... I don't think there's a cultural opening for it to be a major one in-universe, and if it's just a fringe belief I don't think they would let the PC be a member of it. Not yet, and not unless DAI for some reason ends with a Mage Free State of some sort.

 

The reason I say this is because your proposed ideology, if I understand it, is emancipation rhetoric in concept. It's the sort of 'mages must rule to be free' idea that only really appeals to, well, mages defined by the Circle system, who are the only major mage group that doesn't already rule and have greater freedoms than the mundanes.

 

Mage supremacy we have seen and heard of elsewhere overwhelmingly focuses on the legitimacy of mage power, rather than mage rights. Tevinter basically uses a variant of 'the greater good' in justifying mage rule. Seers and shaman types tie magical powers into an exclusive sort of spiritualism. And so on.

 

While Southern Thedas apostates in Andrastian cultures could be a plausible group of this, it would only be as a fringe sort. Most just want to keep their heads down and out of sight, for fear of the public. Of those that we have seen and heard of with mage supremacist aspirations, it's generally of the Tevinter sort. Emancipation rhetoric would be fighting for space in its own population group and their minority of mundane sympathizers (who probably see an exclusive state for mages to rule themselves somewhere else, rather than mages ruling over mundanes here at home).

 

Mage Emancipation Supremacy would be a great ideology for sustaining a Mage Free State after independence, but it already fights against well established ideologies within the Circles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Funny.... The proponents of a mage empire are the EXACT same opponents of the Orlesian Empire... I guess double standards are twice as good?

[lordsaren101]

Funny.... The proponents of a mage empire are the EXACT same opponents of the Orlesian Empire... I guess double standards are twice as good?

The chantry was formed in and headquartered in Orlais. Like its founders it is corrupt and oppressive. Freedom for all when the imperium redevours orlais. Civil war and veil tears have made it ripe for the taking.

[Medhia_Nox]

Despite being a mage player - I absolutely wouldn't not "want" to be a mage on Thedas if it were a choice. 

[lordsaren101]

I would want to be no ordinary mage. I would be a magister, unlimited freedom and power. Sign me up!

[Medhia_Nox]

@lordsaren101:  This is the entire problem with how things in video games are perceived actually. 

 

We believe "we" will be the best of the best - and then proceed to rationalize and moralize from that standpoint over things in the video game.  

 

It is easily the least logical and rational position to stand in when thinking about any topic (in real life or in fantasy)

[themageguy]

I like magic in the world of dragon age. One does not need to be a mage to use magic, but to cast yes, you need a connection to the fade.

Of late, i have been interested in lyrium and enchantments. Whilst not a fireball or wall of flame, an enchanted weapon of flame not only looks badass, but is very valuable.
The Red Lyrium also really interests me, seeing the effects its having on the red Templars seems very similar to the corruptive effects of blood magic or allowing yourself to be possessed by a demon.

The mark the inquisitor has is another interesting source of magical power. We know from various sources that it can be used to not only seal fade tears, but also to banish demons! Awesome stuff. Throw in a dwarf inquisitor and it gets even more interesting!

Im not sure mage supremacy is the answer however. Whilst there are people born without the ability to cast magic, who will be the ones to protect them from mages who would take advantage of them?

There are good mages, those who can resist the whispers of demons and use their gifts to protect and heal , who should be encouraged and supported.

However, not everyone is a mage, and those willing to take up the role of a true templar, should also be cherished, the sacrifices they make to protect everyone from the dangers of demons and dark mages should he noted.

Together, Mage and Templar, could accomplish great things. The old animosities must be stamped out - the Inquisition can provide an excellent start for the makings of a great faction who can forge a better Thedas.

[Icy Magebane]

As for mages living their whole lives without becoming possessed: quite true, and for the majority of them even, but the price is eternal vigilance. The mental discipline will likely become somewhat automatic over the years, and for most of the time, demon whispers will be nothing more than a minor nuisance, similar to a minor case of tinnitus perhaps, but it can flare up in moments of high passion, and even a small risk carries weight if the results of a failure are so utterly disastrous. Given the choice, it is plausible to answer "No, I'm not cut out for a life like that".

 

That some of us here, including myself, would take the risk is beside the point.

Well, I don't think it would be easy by any stretch of the imagination... the tinnitus example seems rather appropriate because the demons are numerous, they have a lot of time on their hands, and they never give up.  Even with extreme discipline, it does sound like their constant whispering could get incredibly annoying over the years...  There is also the fact that we'd each be gambling on how powerful our connection to the Fade would be in the first place.  There is no guarantee that we'd have the raw aptitude to wind up on the level of Magisters, and although it is rare, some of us might wind up so sensitive to the demons' call that we would never be comfortable inside the Fade.  Somniari are not the only mages that suffer intense nightmares, and the nightly haunting that these less powerful mages endure can wind up too much to bear...  As I said, it's rare, but also a possibility...  DA mages seem to have been designed from the ground up with as many pitfalls and hindrances as possible while still making them believable.  If that's true, then I'd say that the writers accomplished their goal spectacularly.  Almost every aspect is tainted... If a mage makes even a small mistake while casting a spell, they could wind up burning to death or setting their house on fire.  Wasn't there also a powerful blood mage in the comics that cut himself too deeply while trying to cast a spell and died?  :/

 

Nothing is every simple in DA, but life as a "mundane" on Thedas doesn't sound that great either...  that would come with its own set of problems, many of which could easily be solved by fireballs, but alas, no such luck.  xD  But that's a whole other topic... I don't think that it's an automatic "yes," unless a person has either thought of all of this in advance or simply assumes that they would be an  exception to the rules (either are equally possible).  That said, I can understand why some people would refuse to be mages after considering the negative aspects.  Sadly, DA mages are born this way, do not get a choice, and can never be "cured"... at least, not in any reasonable way that leaves their minds intact.

 

Getting back to your original point, I think that the idea of mage supremacy is plausible in the strictest sense, but this does not mean that all mages are superior to non-mages.  That can be argued and even believed, but I do not think it can be proven... there is a lot of evidence that the various issues that come with being a mage can break weak individuals.  Some are too stupid, some are too reckless, some are unlucky... there are a whole host of personality flaws that can hinder people, and being a mage doesn't erase those... in many cases it exacerbates them.  I'm sure that could be downplayed enough to make it seem as though the weaklings are being selected out naturally, and that the strong are the only mages who truly matter, but is that really true?  I have my doubts...  Being able to control the elements and various magical forces sounds impressive, but when you look past the glitz and glamor, the ugly truth is that mages are still people and are still subject to the same set of flaws, limitations, vices, and weaknesses regardless of their supernatural abilities...  so being a mage doesn't mean that one is inherently "superior."  Potentially, yes, inherently, no.

[Ieldra]

Funny.... The proponents of a mage empire are the EXACT same opponents of the Orlesian Empire... I guess double standards are twice as good?

Nope. The Orlesian Empire is closely connected to the (white) Chantry. For a mage who wants to be free that's a serious hindrance for positive appreciation.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ask yourself this: would you want to be a mage in Thedas? Doesn't matter where.

I don't know about others, but I would at least hesitate before I say yes. At least. The claim that mages are superior rings hollow in a world where Malcolm Hawke can say he wouldn't wish his magic on anyone else and that comes across as a plausible position to take.

As for firearms, the combination "powder keg + fireball" does not appear very appealing to me. It works for the qunari dreadnoughts because their ships can remain out of range of enemy mages' fireballs and because most of Thedas' nations don't have (enough) mages in their employ, but that wouldn't work so well in land combat, and with the right type of ship, even that advantage can be countered to some degree. There is a reason why Tevinter has held out against the Qunari. IMO, for firearms to become the great equalizer against magic, you'd need an industrial revolution and mass produced firearms and ammo that can be used at very long ranges. Probably late 19th century technology.

 

Yes I would. I would want to be a mage in Thedas. 

[BlueMagitek]

Hopefully they will allow that position.  More options for roleplaying are welcome, as distasteful as they may be.

[Medhia_Nox]

For me - the very eagerness to be a mage is a danger.

 

I say "No" - because I think I might actually make a competent DA mage.  

 

It has less to do with if I could "hack it" and more to do with the notion that self-control leaves less room for pridefulness and I think actively wanting to be constantly tested and openly welcoming the possibility that demons might carve me out and use me for great devastation... is already wrong thinking.