1325 réponses à ce sujet

[themageguy]

Looking forward to the Red Templars

[EmperorSahlertz]

My mind set on what? There are 3 specs in total and Templar spec is the least useful. Do you have a counter argument? Heck its always better to invest in other warrior trees. 

 

Also how is my attitude bad for pointing out you know little about gameplay mechanics? Because that seems to be the case. Getting a crowd control that also stops casting spells as well as fully stopping the target is always better than silence which ONLY stops the casting and is a fancy animation versus none-mage targets. Other warrior trees have better spells than Templar, plain and simple.

Its a bad attitude because what you say is straight up wrong. You could resist spirit magic, and magic resistance ing eneral was not ineffective against spirit damage, it was just halved (so 50% becomes 25%). A Templar would still be the one character that would be able to stand the longest in the middle of a blood pool, by virtue of his passive skill "Annulment".

 

Before you try to crunch numbers and be all theorycrafty, make sure you got a firm grasp of the game mechanics first....

[john-in-france]

Personally I've never had a problem with the Templar spec in DAO or DA2, in fact I always choose it first on my warriors. Each to their own I guess.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Specs were in both games mostly there for flavor. You could by and large go through either game just aswell without any of them, as with any of them.

[Lulupab]

Its a bad attitude because what you say is straight up wrong. You could resist spirit magic, and magic resistance ing eneral was not ineffective against spirit damage, it was just halved (so 50% becomes 25%). A Templar would still be the one character that would be able to stand the longest in the middle of a blood pool, by virtue of his passive skill "Annulment".

 

Before you try to crunch numbers and be all theorycrafty, make sure you got a firm grasp of the game mechanics first....

 

Blood magic is not even magical damage lol, its physical damage that completely ignores armor and damage resistance, so no. Templar cannot endure blood pool a moment longer than anyone. So your grasp is not as firm as you think it is and magic resistance is quite useless against it.

 

Not to mention the rarity of these opponents that Templar is supposedly good against. They only appear during few and certain quests during act one and are pretty rare during act two.

 

Oh NPC spirit magic is different than what mages use, specially the demons. They have a certain mechanic "Enemy damage resistance momentarily 0%" which means the target of spell will lose all of its resistance on the moment of impact of spell and gains it back after. 

 

My argument still stands even if I was wrong with all of this. (which I'm not) Its always more valuable to invest in other warrior trees other than Templar on higher difficulties. A mage aura can grant magic resistance to all magic elements and completely invalidates Tempalr spec as it grants it to everyone in the party not just himself. Not to mention mags gain 1% magic resistance for each point of magic attribute they have (they start with around 20), they easily reach 90% by the time Templar can get annulment talent. (level 15) A blood mage focused on magic and constitution is ten times more resilient against magic than any Templar.

 

As you said specs are there for flavor but you have to be picky on nightmare. As someone who has played and finished Nightmare several times with all classes I think there is no reason to get Templar over Berserker and Reaver. Fenris' unique spec which is mixture of Berserker and Templar is perfection of warrior spec and he outclasses Templar so greatly it made me cry the only time I picked templar for my warrior.

[KoorahUK]

As you said specs are there for flavor but you have to be picky on nightmare. As someone who has played and finished Nightmare several times with all classes I think there is no reason to get Templar over Berserker and Reaver. Fenris' unique spec which is mixture of Berserker and Templar is perfection of warrior spec and he outclasses Templar so greatly it made me cry the only time I picked templar for my warrior.

Except if you care more about playing a character rather than the optimal output of mathamatical calculations.

Not arguing with your observations and I appreciate many folks love min/maxing and thats fine, but saying there is "no reason to pick Templar" in a role playing game kind of misses the point that many, many people pick Templar because they love the concept of being a Holy Warrior. 

I've played Templar on Nightmare and I enjoyed it as much as other specs. Some fights were tougher, others not so much *shrug*

[themageguy]

I think templar this time around will be very useful.

The myriad of demons and magic casters we should face in this game will mean a warrior opting to roll a templar should get alot out of the spec.

And looking at various videos, holy smite has a very impressive stun, acting as a minor but useful stun.

I hope templar gets an ability that makes their weapons glow and crackle with energy, like how it was described in Asunder.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blood magic is not even magical damage lol, its physical damage that completely ignores armor and damage resistance, so no. Templar cannot endure blood pool a moment longer than anyone. So your grasp is not as firm as you think it is and magic resistance is quite useless against it.

 

Not to mention the rarity of these opponents that Templar is supposedly good against. They only appear during few and certain quests during act one and are pretty rare during act two.

 

Oh NPC spirit magic is different than what mages use, specially the demons. They have a certain mechanic "Enemy damage resistance momentarily 0%" which means the target of spell will lose all of its resistance on the moment of impact of spell and gains it back after. 

 

My argument still stands even if I was wrong with all of this. (which I'm not) Its always more valuable to invest in other warrior trees other than Templar on higher difficulties. A mage aura can grant magic resistance to all magic elements and completely invalidates Tempalr spec as it grants it to everyone in the party not just himself. Not to mention mags gain 1% magic resistance for each point of magic attribute they have (they start with around 20), they easily reach 90% by the time Templar can get annulment talent. (level 15) A blood mage focused on magic and constitution is ten times more resilient against magic than any Templar.

 

As you said specs are there for flavor but you have to be picky on nightmare. As someone who has played and finished Nightmare several times with all classes I think there is no reason to get Templar over Berserker and Reaver. Fenris' unique spec which is mixture of Berserker and Templar is perfection of warrior spec and he outclasses Templar so greatly it made me cry the only time I picked templar for my warrior.

No.. You really don't have to be picky on Nightmare, since all the specs (warrior) is useless on Nightmare, since you would much rather spend your talent points in the actually useful warrior abilities.

 

And Blood Magic is spirit damage in DA:O. And even though it is physical damage it STILL counts as magic, which means magic resistance reduces it (because magic resistance reduces the duration of the debuff).

 

Also, ANY character that invest a point in magic gets a magic resitance %, not just mages. Mages gets a whole lot more besides the amgic resitance however, meaning it is obviously more useful for them (In DA:O magic actually also increased the effectiveness of Templar talents).

 

And Templars are good against ALL magic type enemies, and they appear throughout the game. Especially their cleanse ability can be invaluable, since it can remove all the enemy AoE heals and most importantly crushing prison. And it should be noted that silence prevents ANY ability use, not just magical.

[Lulupab]

Except if you care more about playing a character rather than the optimal output of mathamatical calculations.

Not arguing with your observations and I appreciate many folks love min/maxing and thats fine, but saying there is "no reason to pick Templar" in a role playing game kind of misses the point that many, many people pick Templar because they love the concept of being a Holy Warrior. 

I've played Templar on Nightmare and I enjoyed it as much as other specs. Some fights were tougher, others not so much *shrug*

 
I've said before in this thread that the only valid reason to pick templar is liking it as lore and "holy warrior" thingy. No one can force you to play what you don't like, all I'm saying is in Inquisition they can certainly make it better because other warrior specs are more useful in previous game.
 

No.. You really don't have to be picky on Nightmare, since all the specs (warrior) is useless on Nightmare, since you would much rather spend your talent points in the actually useful warrior abilities.
 
And Blood Magic is spirit damage in DA:O. And even though it is physical damage it STILL counts as magic, which means magic resistance reduces it (because magic resistance reduces the duration of the debuff).
 
Also, ANY character that invest a point in magic gets a magic resitance %, not just mages. Mages gets a whole lot more besides the amgic resitance however, meaning it is obviously more useful for them (In DA:O magic actually also increased the effectiveness of Templar talents).
 
And Templars are good against ALL magic type enemies, and they appear throughout the game. Especially their cleanse ability can be invaluable, since it can remove all the enemy AoE heals and most importantly crushing prison. And it should be noted that silence prevents ANY ability use, not just magical.

Reaver/Berserker/Vanguard is the only viable nightmare warrior build, it has perfect synergy between talents and overall dishes too much damage and is able to tank as well thanks to Reaver.

 

My main concern was with DA2 Templar, and in DA2 blood magic deals unresistable physical damage and spirit damage alike. When it deals spirit damage it has the mechanic I told you about earlier, "Enemy damage resistance momentarily 0%". DAO blood magic's damage couldn't be resisted as well but the duration of the effects could be reduced with "mental resistance check".

 

Also lets not make a mistake here, Templar grants bonuses indeed but they pretty much pale in comparison to other warrior trees or specs. So saying Templar does this and does that proves no point when other trees do it better or simply provide better bonuses. But I repeat if you really like it you can get, its weaker than Reaver and Berserker but its still good and can be used effectively but Reaver + Berseker is REALLY good, I recommend it to everyone, Its a whole new warrior experience.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Reaver/Berserker/Vanguard is the only viable nightmare warrior build, it has perfect synergy between talents and overall dishes too much damage and is able to tank as well thanks to Reaver.

This is also straight up wrong, since I have compelted Nightmare without ever spending a point in either of those. I did perfectly well with a warrior that I specialized in purely tanking. The rest of the party is there for the damage.

 

Personally I find Reaver to be pathetically lackluster especially in Nightmare, since it requires you to go low health to actually be useful, and low health is something you definitely do not want to be on Nightmare.

 

On the other hand I found Silence to be invaluable, since it would take care of any pesky mage indefinitely, and practically locked them out of the combat.

 

In short: Your claim that Templar spec is objectively useless, is a bullshit claim, and shouldn't be listened to.

[Lulupab]

This is also straight up wrong, since I have compelted Nightmare without ever spending a point in either of those. I did perfectly well with a warrior that I specialized in purely tanking. The rest of the party is there for the damage.

 

Personally I find Reaver to be pathetically lackluster especially in Nightmare, since it requires you to go low health to actually be useful, and low health is something you definitely do not want to be on Nightmare.

 

On the other hand I found Silence to be invaluable, since it would take care of any pesky mage indefinitely, and practically locked them out of the combat.

 

In short: Your claim that Templar spec is objectively useless, is a bullshit claim, and shouldn't be listened to.

 

I clearly said damage, that build deals too much damage and revels in enemies dying. As with Blood Mage mechanics, the Reaver's health loss due to skills can be mitigated using "Damage Reduction" talents, most notably Aveline's Serve and Protect, Bodyguard, and Battle Synergy. These damage transfers combined with Aveline's self Damage Reduction talents can make the damage taken by Hawke trivial at best. With this build you can kill any mage very quickly and have enough crowd control. Stunning the mage is as good as silencing it if not better. Avliene will always be better tank than Hawke no matter how hard you try, she simply refuses to die and can support the party better than any warrior.

 

With reaver you don't have to be low on health, for each missing 1% of hp you gain 1% damage, this coupled with dozens of other damage buffs you gain from berserker and vanguard the warrior becomes a monster, dispatching enemies very quickly. This is great in bringing down tough opponents then healing up. Who needs to silence a mage if you can kill it in a second. Overall in terms of damage this build invalidates other warrior builds and thrives when in middle of battle, for each enemy the warrior kills he gains attack speed, damage and stamina. Stamina is practically infinite with this and the warrior can spam all its abilities relentlessly which can be used to spam crowd controls that are ten times better than silence and can be abused to activate cross class combos (I.E stagger). Templar has no teamplay synergy and only serves the warrior himself.

 

Other trees do the same thing better or provide better bonuses =/= objectively useless. Because that's the case for Templar. Its not "useless" per se, you will always benefit more from spending points elsewhere.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I clearly said damage, that build deals too much damage and revels in enemies dying. As with Blood Mage mechanics, the Reaver's health loss due to skills can be mitigated using "Damage Reduction" talents, most notably Aveline's Serve and Protect, Bodyguard, and Battle Synergy. These damage transfers combined with Aveline's self Damage Reduction talents can make the damage taken by Hawke trivial at best. With this build you can kill any mage very quickly and have enough crowd control. Stunning the mage is as good as silencing it if not better. Avliene will always be better tank than Hawke no matter how hard you try, she simply refuses to die and can support the party better than any warrior.

 

With reaver you don't have to be low on health, for each missing 1% of hp you gain 1% damage, this coupled with dozens of other damage buffs you gain from berserker and vanguard the warrior becomes a monster, dispatching enemies very quickly. This is great in bringing down tough opponents then healing up. Who needs to silence a mage if you can kill it in a second. Overall in terms of damage this build invalidates other warrior builds and thrives when in middle of battle, for each enemy the warrior kills he gains attack speed, damage and stamina. Stamina is practically infinite with this and the warrior can spam all its abilities relentlessly which can be used to spam crowd controls that are ten times better than silence and can be abused to activate cross class combos (I.E stagger). Templar has no teamplay synergy and only serves the warrior himself.

 

Other trees do the same thing better or provide better bonuses =/= objectively useless. Because that's the case for Templar. Its not "useless" per se, you will always benefit more from spending points elsewhere.

Likewise you would always benefit more from bringing an ACTUAL damage dealer than using the mediocre and AoE riddled warrior. Let the warrior tank like he is supposed to, and leave the damage dealing to the actual dps'ers then, if you are so concerned with min/maxing your dmg output.

 

Now, the claim that you would always benefit more, is ALSO a bullshit claim, since there is no other talent that does what Silence does, and I find Silence invaluable. There is no substitute. Likewise I also find Cleanse far superior to dispel magic, since I won't have to spend points in the useless Spirit School to get it, and I need to spend points in the Templar tree anyway to get silence.

 

And why on earth would I blow my load on a mage, when I can just silence him, and let him be a non-factor for the entire fight, then use my abilities on the actual threats?

And exactly which CC spells are you talking about?

Reaver CC spells: 0

Berserker CC spells: 0

Vanguard CC spells: 0

Not an aweful lot of potential CC you got going for yourself there.

 

Just because YOU have a prefered playstyle, does NOT invalidate other playstyles, so get off your high horse.

[Lumix19]

Likewise you would always benefit more from bringing an ACTUAL damage dealer than using the mediocre and AoE riddled warrior. Let the warrior tank like he is supposed to, and leave the damage dealing to the actual dps'ers then, if you are so concerned with min/maxing your dmg output.

 

Now, the claim that you would always benefit more, is ALSO a bullshit claim, since there is no other talent that does what Silence does, and I find Silence invaluable. There is no substitute. Likewise I also find Cleanse far superior to dispel magic, since I won't have to spend points in the useless Spirit School to get it, and I need to spend points in the Templar tree anyway to get silence.

 

And why on earth would I blow my load on a mage, when I can just silence him, and let him be a non-factor for the entire fight, then use my abilities on the actual threats?

And exactly which CC spells are you talking about?

Reaver CC spells: 0

Berserker CC spells: 0

Vanguard CC spells: 0

Not an aweful lot of potential CC you got going for yourself there.

 

Just because YOU have a prefered playstyle, does NOT invalidate other playstyles, so get off your high horse.

In defense of the Spirit School I actually found it quite useful. Dispel magic for disrupting, Spirit Bolt for damage and Walking Bomb does some nice AoE damage.

[Lulupab]

Likewise you would always benefit more from bringing an ACTUAL damage dealer than using the mediocre and AoE riddled warrior. Let the warrior tank like he is supposed to, and leave the damage dealing to the actual dps'ers then, if you are so concerned with min/maxing your dmg output.

 

Now, the claim that you would always benefit more, is ALSO a bullshit claim, since there is no other talent that does what Silence does, and I find Silence invaluable. There is no substitute. Likewise I also find Cleanse far superior to dispel magic, since I won't have to spend points in the useless Spirit School to get it, and I need to spend points in the Templar tree anyway to get silence.

 

And why on earth would I blow my load on a mage, when I can just silence him, and let him be a non-factor for the entire fight, then use my abilities on the actual threats?

And exactly which CC spells are you talking about?

Reaver CC spells: 0

Berserker CC spells: 0

Vanguard CC spells: 0

Not an aweful lot of potential CC you got going for yourself there.

 

Just because YOU have a prefered playstyle, does NOT invalidate other playstyles, so get off your high horse.

 

CC spells are in beginning of other trees, just grab them. Those 3 specs are main specs, doesn't mean you don't invest in other trees. Also reaver has one CC, improved Devour, 5 sec stun. Pommel strike has 10 sec cooldown and stuns for 8 seconds. Its more than worth it to use it on anyone really. Its always ready. Silence is redundant.

 

This build is the only one that makes warrior viable in nightmare in terms of damage and makes it a pretty real and actual damage dealer. If you want to deal damage with warrior this is the build otherwise you are a target dummy for your allies. This is not my preferred. This was discussed in DA2 guides when the game was fresh. Its the only build that rivals rogue and mage in terms of damage. You start with 150% bonus damage, deal extra based on stamina, gain power and attack speed when an enemy dies, gain 30% attack power for each nearby enemy and you again gain power based on missing health. Fully stacked each attack will deal more damage than a mage spell.

[Lulupab]

In defense of the Spirit School I actually found it quite useful. Dispel magic for disrupting, Spirit Bolt for damage and Walking Bomb does some nice AoE damage.

 

Walking bomb can deal up to 1000 spirit damage and can spread and deal it again and again in an AOE. Its the hardest mage tree to utilize and most people ignore it but its quite effective especially on higher difficulties. Dispel magic >>>>>>>>>>>> Silence and cleanse aura combined. It dispels and interrupts magic on enemies and also deals damage, it removes harmful buffs from allies and heals them. Not to mention the very short cooldown.

[EmperorSahlertz]

In defense of the Spirit School I actually found it quite useful. Dispel magic for disrupting, Spirit Bolt for damage and Walking Bomb does some nice AoE damage.

I also absolutely loved it. But not on Nightmare. On Nightmare Walking Bomb becomes a huge liability, since it is as likely to destroy your own party as it is the enemy. And beyond Walking Bomb Spirit School doesn't have a lot going for it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Walking bomb can deal up to 1000 spirit damage and can spread and deal it again and again in an AOE. Its the hardest mage tree to utilize and most people ignore it but its quite effective especially on higher difficulties. Dispel magic >>>>>>>>>>>> Silence and cleanse aura combined. It dispels and interrupts magic on enemies and also deals damage, it removes harmful buffs from allies and heals them. Not to mention the very short cooldown.

Yay..... 1000 spirit damage which will certainly destroy your own party. What joy of joys....

 

And Dispel Magic and Cleanse are almost carbon copies of eachother. While Dispel Magic MAY heal party members, and deal insignificant damage, Cleanse dispels and silences over a much larger area.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CC spells are in beginning of other trees, just grab them. Those 3 specs are main specs, doesn't mean you don't invest in other trees. Also reaver has one CC, improved Devour, 5 sec stun. Pommel strike has 10 sec cooldown and stuns for 8 seconds. Its more than worth it to use it on anyone really. Its always ready. Silence is redundant.

 

This build is the only one that makes warrior viable in nightmare in terms of damage and makes it a pretty real and actual damage dealer. If you want to deal damage with warrior this is the build otherwise you are a target dummy for your allies. This is not my preferred. This was discussed in DA2 guides when the game was fresh. Its the only build that rivals rogue and mage in terms of damage. You start with 150% bonus damage, deal extra based on stamina, gain power and attack speed when an enemy dies, gain 30% attack power for each nearby enemy and you again gain power based on missing health. Fully stacked each attack will deal more damage than a mage spell.

Except that pommel strike is NOT a guarentee. Silence is. If your entire strategy hinges on a 50% stun chance, then it is a shoddy strategy.

 

And for Nightmare you shouldn't bring a warrior for the damage. You bring a warrior for the control and tank he provides. Since BOTH the other calsees far outshines the warrior in terms of pure damage output, no matter how you build the warrior. Added to that fact, that all the warriors damage is AoE, making it virtually impossible on Nightmare to bring along any other melee type, and you've effectively gimped yourself, by trying to make the warrior into something he is not.

[Lulupab]

Except that pommel strike is NOT a guarentee. Silence is. If your entire strategy hinges on a 50% stun chance, then it is a shoddy strategy.

 

And for Nightmare you shouldn't bring a warrior for the damage. You bring a warrior for the control and tank he provides. Since BOTH the other calsees far outshines the warrior in terms of pure damage output, no matter how you build the warrior. Added to that fact, that all the warriors damage is AoE, making it virtually impossible on Nightmare to bring along any other melee type, and you've effectively gimped yourself, by trying to make the warrior into something he is not.

 

Oh I see where you are coming from after this long discussion. Maybe YOU can't because you can't handle positioning, its what nightmare is. You are making the game less challenging by removing the aspects that are meant to be used effectively to go through nightmare and come with risks. Risks that can be neutralized with position and strategy. If you can't handle friendly fire in nightmare then you shouldn't really give advice on warrior class because clearly you either didn't try this build or killed yourself over and over.

 

For example three of your party members, the mage among them retreats and the warrior gains the attention of all enemies. You cast living bomb on enemies around the warrior, when they are about to start to explode you cast barrier (immunity to all forms of damage) on warrior. All enemies go boom with that huge damage and the warrior is safe and sound. This is what nightmare is about and if you can't handle this then you shouldn't discuss how warrior works on nightmare. With simple positioning and strategy Berserker/Reaver/vanguard is the best way to play warrior and rival both mage and rogue in terms of damage. Unless you want to become a target dummy, that's the way to go. Its obvious you have't tried it due to friendly fire.

 

Also the stun chance is 100%, bosses are not "normal" enemies therefore might resist it. Same with most of CC.

 

[john-in-france]

Lulupab, why not go and start a thread on playing Nightmare? I'm sure such a thread would be popular, and you'd feel happier chatting about your preferred specs.

 

This is meant to be a thread for people who play Templar spec or RPG a Templar, and from what you've said, you obviously do not. Sadly your zeal in spreading the one build to rule them all, can come across as rude, and particularly derogatory for those who do play Nightmare with Templar builds. Or are you trolling?

[BlueFlame527]

I think templar this time around will be very useful.
The myriad of demons and magic casters we should face in this game will mean a warrior opting to roll a templar should get alot out of the spec.
And looking at various videos, holy smite has a very impressive stun, acting as a minor but useful stun.
I hope templar gets an ability that makes their weapons glow and crackle with energy, like how it was described in Asunder.

Maybe we can also recruit some tevinter mages as well. They know a thing or two about demons and magic. I imagine Dorian might have some tevinter mages supporting his ideals that have followed him to Ferelden/Orlais (not sure where he will be recruited). As such if peace can be made between mages and templars I could see templars and tevinter mages fighting alongside each other for the greater good.
Another thing though that I am wondering. How are the templars going to treat a mage inquisitor at the start of the game? Will they treat him like Hawke and respect his position or see him/her as just another mage to be put down unless we break peace between the two sides?

[Lulupab]

Lulupab, why not go and start a thread on playing Nightmare? I'm sure such a thread would be popular, and you'd feel happier chatting about your preferred specs.

 

This is meant to be a thread for people who play Templar spec or RPG a Templar, and from what you've said, you obviously do not. Sadly your zeal in spreading the one build to rule them all, can come across as rude, and particularly derogatory for those who do play Nightmare with Templar builds. Or are you trolling?

 

I repeated dozens of times in this very thread that its perfectly fine to RPG a Templar. In fact do you know what started the discussion? I asked for better Templar spec in Inquisition because the previous ones were not satisfying in terms of gameplay and could have done better. Templar zealots were like "NOOOO its was perfectly fine etc" So I was asking for a better Templar because tell me, how do you feel when a raging psychopath or blood drinking cultist does better than Templar in combat? That personally bothered me.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't approve the Chantry making anyone with Templar training a bunch of addicts. 

[raging_monkey]

While i dislike the chantry i approve of templars and there goals they get a bad rap but their heart is in the right

[dragonflight288]

While i dislike the chantry i approve of templars and there goals they get a bad rap but their heart is in the right

 

Well, some of them at least, same with any other group.

 

I simply say "some" because the templar's own codex says that they are recruited more for religious ferver than strength of character as a way to keep them from questioning their orders.