1325 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I repeated dozens of times in this very thread that its perfectly fine to RPG a Templar. In fact do you know what started the discussion? I asked for better Templar spec in Inquisition because the previous ones were not satisfying in terms of gameplay and could have done better. Templar zealots were like "NOOOO its was perfectly fine etc" So I was asking for a better Templar because tell me, how do you feel when a raging psychopath or blood drinking cultist does better than Templar in combat? That personally bothered me.

Apparently, the raging psychopaths who aren't addicted to lyrium are better fighters than the ones who are.

[Master Warder Z_]

Apparently, the raging psychopaths who aren't addicted to lyrium are better fighters than the ones who are.

Not when it comes to combating mages which is their purpose.

[Karlone123]

I look forward to role-playing a templar-supporting organisation.

[dragonflight288]

Not when it comes to combating mages which is their purpose.

 

Unless you're a spirit mage, who's talents and spells are far superior. 

 

Mana Clash.

[WarriorOfLight999]

As someone who is pro mage, I see the necessity of the Templar Order. Indeed, my very pro mage F!Cousland is, in fact, a Templar. To make things even more strange, she was also a Spirit Warrior!

 

F!Cousland was essentially the bane of evil, specifically trained to fight demons, undead, blood mages, and darkspawn. She would laugh mockingly as spells were effortlessly resisted. Crushing Prison? Nope. Paralysis? Nope. Fireball? Nope.

 

It's hard to imagine how the White Chantry and its followers view the Hero Queen. Do they see her as a dangerous, heretical abomination who illegally learned sacred Templar training, partook in blood magic (Improved Joining Potion) and even made common cause with a spirit? Or perhaps as the unconventional hero, a Warden who slew an entire tower full of demons and blood mages, destroyed Gaxkang the Unbound, rediscovered the Urn of Sacred Ashes and ended the Fifth Blight by slaying the Archdemon?

[dragonflight288]

As someone who is pro mage, I see the necessity of the Templar Order. Indeed, my very pro mage F!Cousland is, in fact, a Templar. To make things even more strange, she was also a Spirit Warrior!

 

F!Cousland was essentially the bane of evil, specifically trained to fight demons, undead, blood mages, and darkspawn. She would laugh mockingly as spells were effortlessly resisted. Crushing Prison? Nope. Paralysis? Nope. Fireball? Nope.

 

It's hard to imagine how the White Chantry and its followers view the Hero Queen. Do they see her as a dangerous, heretical abomination who illegally learned sacred Templar training, partook in blood magic (Improved Joining Potion) and even made common cause with a spirit? Or perhaps as the unconventional hero, a Warden who slew an entire tower full of demons and blood mages, destroyed Gaxkang the Unbound, rediscovered the Urn of Sacred Ashes and ended the Fifth Blight by slaying the Archdemon?

 

I expect the reactions are mixed. Spirit Warrior's own description says that these warriors are often mistaken as mages because of their relationship with Fade Spirits. 

[Icy Magebane]

As someone who is pro mage, I see the necessity of the Templar Order. Indeed, my very pro mage F!Cousland is, in fact, a Templar. To make things even more strange, she was also a Spirit Warrior!

 

F!Cousland was essentially the bane of evil, specifically trained to fight demons, undead, blood mages, and darkspawn. She would laugh mockingly as spells were effortlessly resisted. Crushing Prison? Nope. Paralysis? Nope. Fireball? Nope.

 

It's hard to imagine how the White Chantry and its followers view the Hero Queen. Do they see her as a dangerous, heretical abomination who illegally learned sacred Templar training, partook in blood magic (Improved Joining Potion) and even made common cause with a spirit? Or perhaps as the unconventional hero, a Warden who slew an entire tower full of demons and blood mages, destroyed Gaxkang the Unbound, rediscovered the Urn of Sacred Ashes and ended the Fifth Blight by slaying the Archdemon?

Grey Wardens get to bend the rules... I think she'd be seen mainly for her good deeds, since those are what matter.  The details are less important to the common folk so long as you don't use blood magic or murder an innocent right in front of them...  Even a full-fledged Grey Warden blood mage might be feared, and probably avoided at all costs, but nobody would try to arrest them over it.  I mean, you didn't list a single immoral action here... what would anybody be able to object to?

[Daerog]

Well, I'd rather be a Templar than a Grey Warden.

 

I'd rather be a Loyalist mage than a Libertarian mage.... or maybe an Imperial Cleric, but we're not in Tevinter so whatever...

[WarriorOfLight999]

Good points, but remember that the Warden has their name slandered by Loghain for a good year before the Blight ends, and Loghain, no matter what one thinks of his deeds, is a national hero.

 

Someone else has mentioned the murky territory of whether or not a Spirit Warrior (NOT Arcane Warrior) is an abomination. Blood mage Wardens, I can see them tolerating. Abomination Warden who happens to sit upon the throne of Ferelden? That might be something else altogether.

[Icy Magebane]

Good points, but remember that the Warden has their name slandered by Loghain for a good year before the Blight ends, and Loghain, no matter what one thinks of his deeds, is a national hero.

 

Someone else has mentioned the murky territory of whether or not a Spirit Warrior (NOT Arcane Warrior) is an abomination. Blood mage Wardens, I can see them tolerating. Abomination Warden who happens to sit upon the throne of Ferelden? That might be something else altogether.

Well, technically, Warden's aren't even eligible to hold the crown, so they game is already breaking the rules...  Once a game starts making lore-breaking exceptions for the PC (or characters in general, since this also applies to Alistair...), I stop worrying about the details.  The integrity of the setting is already compromised IMO...

[Master Warder Z_]

Unless you're a spirit mage, who's talents and spells are far superior.

Mana Clash.

Silence seems more useful and to the point.

[dragonflight288]

Grey Wardens get to bend the rules... I think she'd be seen mainly for her good deeds, since those are what matter.  The details are less important to the common folk so long as you don't use blood magic or murder an innocent right in front of them...  Even a full-fledged Grey Warden blood mage might be feared, and probably avoided at all costs, but nobody would try to arrest them over it.  I mean, you didn't list a single immoral action here... what would anybody be able to object to?

 

Unless the templars send spies into the Wardens to watch their mages. Or templars decide to illegally ignore their right of conscription in favor of hunting mages they want captured. 

 

source: Awakening's Ser Rylock and Anders' short story pre DA2. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Unless the templars send spies into the Wardens to watch their mages. Or templars decide to illegally ignore their right of conscription in favor of hunting mages they want captured.

source: Awakening's Ser Rylock and Anders' short story pre DA2.

One of your sources is non canon as hell.

[dragonflight288]

Well, technically, Warden's aren't even eligible to hold the crown, so they game is already breaking the rules...  Once a game starts making lore-breaking exceptions for the PC (or characters in general, since this also applies to Alistair...), I stop worrying about the details.  The integrity of the setting is already compromised IMO...

 

Is the integrity of the lore compromised, or is the game showing that despite rules existing that say otherwise, the actual effectiveness of them is limited?

 

I mean, Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral and this allows them to operate everywhere and conscript anyone, but our Warden from after Lothering on through Awakening is anything but neutral, and the First Warden plans on using the Warden's ruling Amaranthine as a precedent to give Wardens more power. 

[dragonflight288]

One of your sources is non canon as hell.

 

An in-game event from Awakening is non-canon?

[Hellion Rex]

One of your sources is non canon as hell.

As badly as it was written, Anders' short story still counts.

[dragonflight288]

As badly as it was written, Anders' short story still counts.

 

And has been confirmed as canon. 

[Hellion Rex]

Well, technically, Warden's aren't even eligible to hold the crown,

Lol, don't tell that to the First Warden.

[Icy Magebane]

Is the integrity of the lore compromised, or is the game showing that despite rules existing that say otherwise, the actual effectiveness of them is limited?

 

I mean, Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral and this allows them to operate everywhere and conscript anyone, but our Warden from after Lothering on through Awakening is anything but neutral, and the First Warden plans on using the Warden's ruling Amaranthine as a precedent to give Wardens more power. 

I'm of the opinion that in a setting that relies heavily on clear rules and boundaries to segregate various groups and create a very rigid power structure, exceptions tend to weaken the overall integrity of the plot and damage suspension of disbelief.  Since these exceptions generally apply to the PC or party members, but not the rest of the characters in the story, they feel unnatural and I see them as difficult to justify.

[Icy Magebane]

Lol, don't tell that to the First Warden.

The guy in the Anderfels?  He's not a king, is he?

[Daerog]

He practically runs the country.

[dragonflight288]

I'm of the opinion that in a setting that relies heavily on clear rules and boundaries to segregate various groups and create a very rigid power structure, exceptions tend to weaken the overall integrity of the plot and damage suspension of disbelief.  Since these exceptions generally apply to the PC or party members, but not the rest of the characters in the story, they feel unnatural and I see them as difficult to justify.

 

That's because it is difficult to justify. Pretty much every group has clear rules they are supposed to follow, and every group has examples of some level of corruption because various people within those groups, don't. 

 

It's a Dark Fantasy world, and things aren't sunshine and rainbows. Sure, many of the systems seem great on paper, the Warden's neutrality being a key one, but the Wardens most certainly are not neutral everywhere, especially in the Anderfels. And the Warden is certainly not forced to follow the rules of his organization. Sure, he can conscript people in Awakening, while ruling an Arling. And the dwarves force the Warden to get involved with politics. So too do the humans with the Landsmeet and choosing the ruler. 

[dragonflight288]

The guy in the Anderfels?  He's not a king, is he?

 

What Daerog said. Riordin in Origins says that although the Wardens don't really rule, they pretty much run the country and are the power behind the throne, and he feels that the First Warden prefers it that way. 

[Master Warder Z_]

As badly as it was written, Anders' short story still counts.

Nu-uh.

I provided a link with Gaider expressing that it was non canon to lulu weeks ago.

It's been non canon since 2012.

[Icy Magebane]

That's because it is difficult to justify. Pretty much every group has clear rules they are supposed to follow, and every group has examples of some level of corruption because various people within those groups, don't. 

 

It's a Dark Fantasy world, and things aren't sunshine and rainbows. Sure, many of the systems seem great on paper, the Warden's neutrality being a key one, but the Wardens most certainly are not neutral everywhere, especially in the Anderfels. And the Warden is certainly not forced to follow the rules of his organization. Sure, he can conscript people in Awakening, while ruling an Arling. And the dwarves force the Warden to get involved with politics. So too do the humans with the Landsmeet and choosing the ruler. 

Maybe if there were less PC and party member exceptions and more made for random people in the setting, I'd agree with you...

 

What Daerog said. Riordin in Origins says that although the Wardens don't really rule, they pretty much run the country and are the power behind the throne, and he feels that the First Warden prefers it that way. 

I was specifically referring to ruling a kingdom as the legitimate monarch and being openly recognized as such.  Whatever authority he may have behind the scenes isn't what I was referring to...