1325 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

To agree to templars guards is one things, but templar governance is another. The circle is supposed to be able to govern itself and it can't because  of the templars. That's a problem, that's the whole problem, really, and I don't see the circle working in a new deal without mages controlling their own towers as they're supposed to. WoT says specifically that its the "heavy templars presence" in circles that prevents them from being autonomous, so the most obvious solution to me is to scale back the templar presence in the towers in both numbers and authority.

i somewhat agree with the level of templar power. But the reason why they do this is to avoid a second tevinter(a dubious arguement imo). But when you gaurd something especially dangerous people you have a social contract of ownership. Sad truth is magi cant be autonous due to the **** up of the past and people hold grudges for life and will punish others of the same ethnic group for eternity. The only solution possible is the subjugation of one side. I no longer believe in compromise is possible cause i doubt BW will go this route

[Master Warder Z_]

And inject.

I don't think Thedas has gotten to the point of needles and plungers

[Icy Magebane]

They are supplying people an addictive substance and then hold control over said substance to control those people because that substance is addictive. So yes, they are making people addicts the same way a drug dealer does. 

Except that dangerous mages who use blood magic aren't affected by those abilities. It's one reason they use blood magic in the first place. 

And yes you could. Wards that nullify all magic within an area is in the lore. So build a large one and then put the Circle within it and voila, you've nullified an entire Circle worth of mages.

It's not like that at all... nobody is forcing people to join the Templars and they are made aware of the risks well in advance.  This isn't like the Grey Wardens where they don't tell you the Joining is potentially fatal until you're at the ceremony and don't bother to explain the side effects until after the new recruit is Tainted.  Drug dealers "make" people addicted for their own benefit, in order to make money... Templars subject themselves to lyrium addiction in order to fulfill a specific duty that cannot be efficiently done in any other way...  I'm afraid this is just a very poor comparison...

 

I'm not even sure what you are meaning to imply by pointing out the problems Templars have with blood magic... are you trying to say that because they have difficulty with blood magic, they should also give up their attempts to control the mages that their powers can effect?  Because that doesn't make much sense...  normal mages are still dangerous, and the Templar's powers have an effect on abominations regardless of whether or not the possessed mage knew anything about blood magic.  Normal warriors have no such advantages and thus would not be effective replacements...

 

I'm pretty sure that if it were possible to just build a huge ward to nullify magic, that would be incorporated into every circle already... over the course of several centuries, the Chantry would have figured this out if it was a viable alternative... even if they still wanted to have the Templars as a personal army, an invention like this would make their jobs a lot easier and lower Templar fatalities in the event of uprisings.  If this were possible, there is no reason why they wouldn't already be using such wards to supplement the Templars...

[Master Warder Z_]

Anti Magic warding is likely the most expensive and difficult warding to do period.

[lil yonce]

Thats the road to anullment right there. Templars keep mages safe by weeding out those unable to handle to temptations of the fade or the lure of forbidden magic. Scale back that supervision and its just a matter of time before abominations run wild.

There's a codex that says they rely on the mages in the tower for these kinds of things anyway, http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Circle 

 

The circle doesn't need templars to "weed out" mages. It needs guards to keep things that shouldn't get out from getting out and to keep things that shouldn't get in from going in, but it doesn't need templar authority to manage itself.

[The Ascendant]

I am conflicted in regards towards the Templars. My Mage Characters hate them for obvious reasons, while my Warrior Characters support them. Personally I understand the need for Templars, but I found the situation in Kirkwall inexcusable where Meredith essentially took control of the whole city. The Templars exist to protect mages from the rest of society and vice versa. They shouldn't be ruling cities. If magic cannot rule man, then neither should their watchers. I understand Kirkwall is a breeding ground of insanity but still, the Chantry, or military arm of it, should not be allowed to govern cities and kingdoms. Otherwise, what's the point of nobles and royalty? Would there be a difference between the Chantry and the Qun if the Chantry became a militaristic theocracy?   

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not like that at all... nobody is forcing people to join the Templars and they are made aware of the risks well in advance.  This isn't like the Grey Wardens where they don't tell you the Joining is potentially fatal until you're at the ceremony and don't bother to explain the side effects until after the new recruit is Tainted.  Drug dealers "make" people addicted for their own benefit, in order to make money... Templars subject themselves to lyrium addiction in order to fulfill a specific duty that cannot be efficiently done in any other way...  I'm afraid this is just a very poor comparison...

 

I'm not even sure what you are meaning to imply by pointing out the problems Templars have with blood magic... are you trying to say that because they have difficulty with blood magic, they should also give up their attempts to control the mages that their powers can effect?  Because that doesn't make much sense...  normal mages are still dangerous, and the Templar's powers have an effect on abominations regardless of whether or not the possessed mage knew anything about blood magic.  Normal warriors have no such advantages and thus would not be effective replacements...

 

I'm pretty sure that if it were possible to just build a huge ward to nullify magic, that would be incorporated into every circle already... over the course of several centuries, the Chantry would have figured this out if it was a viable alternative... even if they still wanted to have the Templars as a personal army, an invention like this would make their jobs a lot easier and lower Templar fatalities in the event of uprisings.  If this were possible, there is no reason why they wouldn't already be using such wards to supplement the Templars...

People are aware of the effects drugs have on them too, and yet still use the first batch for whatever reason. Does that make the person supplying them any less of a drug dealer who makes them addicted? The answer is no. And the Chantry makes them addicted for their benefit, to have a standing army at their beck and call.

 

I'm saying they should search for alternatives rather than go, "Well, what can you do? Let's just fight." when it comes to blood mages. If they are willing to do that against blood mages, I see no reason why they wouldn't, and stand a better chance, against regular mages. And there is enchanted armor that can withstand magical attacks unless you're saying regular armor would protect someone from an inferno or shards of ice.  

 

They have already implemented it in a small scale. You fall prey to one in the Mage Origin, hence why you have to go around through the basement until you reach a place you can blow a hole into the wall into the phylactery room. I suspect the reason they don't do large scale is because there wouldn't be much of a game involving mages then. So instead we got to stick with making the Templars into leashed junkie guard dogs for the Chantry instead. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Templars obviously weren't leashed to well considering the majority of the order left.

[Icy Magebane]

I am conflicted in regards towards the Templars. My Mage Characters hate them for obvious reasons, while my Warrior Characters support them. Personally I understand the need for Templars, but I found the situation in Kirkwall inexcusable where Meredith essentially took control of the whole city. The Templars exist to protect mages from the rest of society and vice versa. They shouldn't be ruling cities. If magic cannot rule man, then neither should their watchers. I understand Kirkwall is a breeding ground of insanity but still, the Chantry, or military arm of it, should not be allowed to govern cities and kingdoms. Otherwise, what's the point of nobles and royalty? Would there be a difference between the Chantry and the Qun if the Chantry became a militaristic theocracy?   

You have to remember that Meredith was committing an illegal action by preventing anyone from assuming the role of Viscount... beyond that, she had been under the influence of the red lyrium idol for 3 years by the time Act 3 started.  Who can say how that Act would have gone if her mind hadn't been compromised?

 

But I do agree that the Templars have no business interfering in government... that's just not their place, and the Kirkwall Templars had gotten far too comfortable with their unusually high amount of authority.  Unfortunately, Kirkwall was like that even before DA2 started... it is an exception to the rule, however...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Templars obviously weren't leashed to well considering the majority of the order left.

Even a leashed dog will bite it's master if angry enough at them. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Even a leashed dog will bite it's master if angry enough at them.

Point being the Templar Order's position was one of their choosing and when it ceased to appease them they left.

Hardly the behavior you ascribed the order to.

Lambert already covered this; they agreed to serve the Chantry but with condition.

[EmperorSahlertz]

But you would have to keep ingesting lyrium on a regular basis to keep being able to use Templar abilities, right?

 

I don't like that part.

You also have to keep consuming food for the ability to stay alive. Sacrifices must be made if you want to posses certain abilities in DA.

[Icy Magebane]

People are aware of the effects drugs have on them too, and yet still use the first batch for whatever reason. Does that make the person supplying them any less of a drug dealer who makes them addicted? The answer is no. And the Chantry makes them addicted for their benefit, to have a standing army at their beck and call.

 

I'm saying they should search for alternatives rather than go, "Well, what can you do? Let's just fight." when it comes to blood mages. If they are willing to do that against blood mages, I see no reason why they wouldn't, and stand a better chance, against regular mages. And there is enchanted armor that can withstand magical attacks unless you're saying regular armor would protect someone from an inferno or shards of ice.  

 

They have already implemented it in a small scale. You fall prey to one in the Mage Origin, hence why you have to go around through the basement until you reach a place you can blow a hole into the wall into the phylactery room. I suspect the reason they don't do large scale is because there wouldn't be much of a game involving mages then. So instead we got to stick with making the Templars into leashed junkie guard dogs for the Chantry instead. 

Your comparison between lyrium and street drugs is flawed.  The Templars need lyrium to control mages and there is no alternative means by which they can access such abilities.  There is no real world analogue to this... the closest I can think of is a truck driver using speed to stay awake on long trips, but even then they could just take a nap instead...

 

These alternatives you have been coming up with aren't going to be able to replace trained soldiers who can outright nullify magic, prevent mages from casting spells, and resist magic if it does hit them.  Enchanted equipment and wards are just icing on the cake... they aren't enough to put normal soldiers on the level of Templars if both groups are given access to such items...  Since the Templars would not have to rely on their equipment to combat mages, they are clearly the superior choice.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Point being the Templar Order's position was one of their choosing and when it ceased to appease them they left.

Hardly the behavior you ascribed the order to.

Lambert already covered this; they agreed to serve the Chantry but with condition.

Yeah, because an addict has never betrayed or attacked their drug dealer. It's clearly different. 

[ManOfSteel]

The Templars have my full support.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, because an addict has never betrayed or attacked their drug dealer. It's clearly different.

It was an agreement between two organizations that ended when one couldn't uphold it's end of the bargain and was striking against the other.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Your comparison between lyrium and street drugs is flawed.  The Templars need lyrium to control mages and there is no alternative means by which they can access such abilities.  There is no real world analogue to this... the closest I can think of is a truck driver using speed to stay awake on long trips, but even then they could just take a nap instead...

 

These alternatives you have been coming up with aren't going to be able to replace trained soldiers who can outright nullify magic, prevent mages from casting spells, and resist magic if it does hit them.  Enchanted equipment and wards are just icing on the cake... they aren't enough to put normal soldiers on the level of Templars if both groups are given access to such items...

How is it flawed? We've seen the effects it has, both if you keep using it and if you try to stop. Either way, it ends very badly. Just like powerful drugs. 

I don't care what the benefits are. How you do something is an important as what you do, and how they do it sickens me. I'm not going to go "Well, it's worth it." since I don't see that as true. And as for Templars being so defended against magic, how come they drop like flies against some mages who don't even use blood magic on them? And no, I'm not referring to fighting them in gameplay, so story-gameplay segregation does not apply. 

 

 

It was an agreement between two organizations that ended when one couldn't uphold it's end of the bargain and was striking against the other.

Which does not go against my comparison at all, which you said it did. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

 
Blood magic spells and fist of the maker in force mage are physical damage, you need to get your facts straight. That was DAO this is DA2, the mechanic is different in DA2. Magic resistance DOES NOT affect the named magic spells, Physical damage deals with armor, there is no exception. I have a bridge to sell you if you think otherwise. Countered

 

They deal physical yes. But you still fail to comprehend what Magic Resistance does. It LESSENS the duration of debuffs. Meaning that with 50% magic resistance, the debuff which lasts 2 seconds would only last 1 second. Hemorrhage does NOT remove Magic Resistance. Which means that a Templar will more quickly regain his defenses, meaning he can tank the spell more easily than others. You claim = DEBUNKED for bullshit.
 

No there is no risk or no reload when dealing with friendly fire, if you know what you're doing instead of casting the spell like a scrub. Anders, Merril, Varric, You as warrior. if you didn't notice already 3 other members are ranged and perfectly safe from living bomb detonation area and only you are melee and in its area and you are protected by barrier, 2 mages can provided it. Problem solved. NO RISK, PLENTY REWARDS. Oh and they are also safe from wariror's friendly fire. Countered

 Which would mean you would bring a mediocre tank, miss out on a dual wield rogue dps, all for your vaunted DPSZOR fail warrior..... Great... You coutnered what exactly? I didn't say your build was impossible. On the other hand, you said that ALL other warrior builds were straight up unviable. Your claim = DEBUNKED for bullshit.

 

I don't need to prove this to you, anyone who has played Berserker/Reaver/vanguard knows that's its perfectly capable of rivaling other classes in terms of damage. But since you announced it that because of friendly fire you never played this spec, you cannot claim warrior cannot deal as much as damage as other classes when you never tried this build, its actually more effective on higher difficulties because it ignores so much defense and enemies have too much of it in nightmare. Countered

 

Yeah... No... They are not. It is basic math. ESPECIALLY in the party setup you just provided. Where half the stamina of the warrior would cosntatly have to be spent defensively just to keep him alive. Unless you want to spend all the mana of the amges on keeping him alive, and thus not dealing damage, thus lowering your overall damage output. Thus failing to achieve your vaunted max dps.

Again DEBUNKED for failure.

PS. I've tried ALL possible builds in DA2, I just strongly prefer the one with a warrior who can actually tank and CC, instead of pretend dps.
 

MANY enemies and the one who would matter if silenced are outright immune to silence as stated in prima guide such as: Desire demon and shades, Pride demons, Undead, All Commanders including but not limited to, Kirkwall units, Qunari, mercenaries and mage bosses such as Hadriana (the ones who channel aura for their allies), Rage demons, Revenants, All other templars, and Tevinter mages (the npc name is Tevinter slaver). I find it Immensely satisfying Tevinter mages are immune to silence. You can only silence squishy mages who happen to die very quickly. No need to silence someone when their demise is few swings away.

Countered

Uhm... Yeah some boss mobs are immune to silence? Guess what? Boss mobs are immune to MANY things, including half the cc a mage can provide. However, the Templar can STILL dispel all captains' auras, and tank enemy magic more easily. So the only thing you managed to coutner is, that a Tempalrs 100% chacne to silence doesn't work on some specific targets. Big woop I guess? And Tevinter Mages are not immune to silence, since they are not covered by the Slaver type enemy.

 

So in conclusion: The enemies that the Templar cannot silence, can all be dispelled for their AoE effects.

 

It has become redundant by now to explain the status of your claims.

 

Also I am done. You are not even equipped to participate in gameplay mechanics discussion. That "blood magic is affected by magic resistance" gave you away pretty quickly. It was the case in DAO, the saw it was retarded so they fixed it. Again stated in prima guide.

You better be done, since you apparently got no grasp at all on the game mechanics...

 

And please, if you are going to use a "prima" guide for ANY advise regarding gaming, you might aswell not try to be an elitist scumbag, and jsut stop all together. Prima guides are not even worth wiping your ass with when it comes to theory crafting. There is ONE true and accepted way, and that is actually experimenting with it yourself.

[Icy Magebane]

 

How is it flawed? We've seen the effects it has, both if you keep using it and if you try to stop. Either way, it ends very badly. Just like powerful drugs. 

I don't care what the benefits are. How you do something is an important as what you do, and how they do it sickens me. I'm not going to go "Well, it's worth it." since I don't see that as true. And as for Templars being so defended against magic, how come they drop like flies against some mages who don't even use blood magic on them? And no, I'm not referring to fighting them in gameplay, so story-gameplay segregation does not apply.

 

Well, like it or not, power comes at a price in Dragon Age.  This isn't a fairy tale where nothing ever goes wrong and the heroes are paragons of virtue and purity.  I'd rather allow people to make a conscious decision to compromise their health in order to ensure the safety of others than rely on normal soldiers to police individuals who can set them on fire with a gesture. 

 

The comparison to recreational drug users is flawed because drugs do not allow people to perform tasks that they otherwise could not if they didn't have access to that drug.  I'm not sure why you keep ignoring that part and focusing solely on addiction...  Even in the case of athletes who use performance enhancing drugs, they would not be completely unable to play sports if they didn't take them... they just wouldn't have an advantage over clean athletes...  Since being a Templar is completely dependent on the use of lyrium, this comparison is flawed.  At the very least, it's weak because the only valid similarity is that lyrium and drugs are both addictive.  That's not really good enough to establish a link IMO... certainly not to the extent that you are claiming by calling the Templars "junkies."

 

As for you comment about Templars "dropping like flies," all I can really say is if they were that weak and ineffective, they would not have been able to keep the mages under lock and key for centuries.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, like it or not, power comes at a price in Dragon Age.  This isn't a fairy tale where nothing ever goes wrong and the heroes are paragons of virtue and purity.  I'd rather allow people to make a conscious decision to compromise their health in order to ensure the safety of others than rely on normal soldiers to police individuals who can set them on fire with a gesture.  The comparison to recreational drug users is flawed because drugs do not allow people to perform tasks that they otherwise could not if they didn't have access to that drug.  I'm not sure why you keep ignoring that part and focusing solely on addiction...  Even in the case of athletes who use performance enhancing drugs, they would not be completely unable to play sports if they didn't take them... they just won't have an advantage over clean athletes...

 

As for you comment about Templars "dropping like flies," all I can really say is if they were that weak and ineffective, they would not have been able to keep the mages under lock and key for centuries.

Actually, that is incorrect. There are drugs that let you preform tasks that they otherwise couldn't do. For example they can fight harder since they feel no pain and thus their body won't limit the power like it normally would. It results in the hands being broken, but Lyrium results in the mind being broken so same thing. And at least bones always heal while your mind may not. And again, Templars don't need their powers to police mages. It helps I'll grant you that, but it is not required. So how is it different again? 

The Circles are also in the middle of nowhere with no real possibility of large scale escape. It doesn't take Templars to destroy all the boats and starve the mages into submission. Plus everyone can be a guard while not that many people are mages, so it is also a superiority in numbers. 

 

But even ignoring all that, you're saying I should condone the practice? Do you want me to condone the Chevaliers raping anyone they want with impunity while we're at it? After all, they choose to do it and it lets them do their job better by relieving stress. 

[Icy Magebane]

Actually, that is incorrect. There are drugs that let you preform tasks that they otherwise couldn't do. For example they can fight harder since they feel no pain and thus their body won't limit the power like it normally would. It results in the hands being broken, but Lyrium results in the mind being broken so same thing. And at least bones always heal while your mind may not. And again, Templars don't need their powers to police mages. It helps I'll grant you that, but it is not required. So how is it different again? 

The Circles are also in the middle of nowhere with no real possibility of large scale escape. It doesn't take Templars to destroy all the boats and starve the mages into submission. Plus everyone can be a guard while not that many people are mages, so it is also a superiority in numbers. 

 

But even ignoring all that, you're saying I should condone the practice? Do you want me to condone the Chevaliers raping anyone they want with impunity while we're at it? After all, they choose to do it and it lets them do their job better by relieving stress. 

lol... that's quite a leap... rape and "drug" addiction are equally bad in your eyes?  Okay...

 

Aside from that, I really don't know what else I can say to try to change your mind, so I guess I'll have to leave it at that for now... I just don't see the connection between drug and lyrium use, and I also don't think that Templars are so easily replaced.  I might return to this topic if I come up with something new to say, but if I continue now I'm just going to be repeating myself...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

lol... that's quite a leap... rape and "drug" addiction are equally bad in your eyes?  Okay...

Of course they aren't as bad. But both are bad. 

[Icy Magebane]

Of course they aren't as bad. But both are bad. 

Bad and completely unrelated... again, the comparison is superficial at best and doesn't need to be made.  Templars aren't relieving stress when they drink lyrium potions, and chevaliers don't need to be rapists to serve their nation... (edit: I guess that means I take back what I said... I'm might not be quite done with this...)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Aside from that, I really don't know what else I can say to try to change your mind, so I guess I'll have to leave it at that for now... I just don't see the connection between drug and lyrium use, and I also don't think that Templars are so easily replaced.  I might return to this topic if I come up with something new to say, but if I continue now I'm just going to be repeating myself...

Fine, let's just drop it then. You keep the practice of making Templars addicts on a pedestal if you want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. 

 

 

Bad and completely unrelated... again, the comparison is superficial at best and doesn't need to be made.  Templars aren't relieving stress when they drink lyrium potions, and chevaliers don't need to be rapists to serve their nation... (edit: I guess that means I take back what I said... I'm might not be quite done with this...)

Neither is you using more minor drugs to make your case that the two aren't related. 

 

No, they just have to be murderers. So much better. 

[The Baconer]

Templars aren't relieving stress when they drink lyrium potions,

 

They certainly can, and may reach the point of drinking Lyrium to do so.