228 réponses à ce sujet

[ghostzodd]

Sorry for the double post, but what you said is EXACTLY what privilege does. Nobody's trying to "control someone's creative freedom", but we're entirely within our rights to point out that it is pandering to one segment of the population. Criticism is not the same thing as censorship. Believe me, it's not the queer/female/non-white/disabled/etc... people who are being pandered to.

 

All people have the right to be free, within the bounds of the law., So no? free would be a privilege to everyone not just straight male gamers

[Flog the Undying]

All people have the right to be free, within the bounds of the law., So no? free would be a privilege to everyone not just straight male gamers

 

But you're saying that people shouldn't be free to say developers are being sexist/racist/homophobic.

 

Also I'm going to keep reminding you: you said earlier that people in this thread have said that all straight people are intolerant. I would like a direct quote please.

 

 

Or you can admit that you were lying.

[Flog the Undying]

See you lost me at linking sites like polygon

 

So you're not even reading the evidence he gives you.

 

How very open minded.

[SardaukarElite]

So your into controlling someone's art/ creative freedom because you do not like that it is not pandering to you gotcha, stay classy BSN

 

How is arguing for change "controlling"? Presenting a preference and reasons for better gender and sexuality (or ethnic or anything) representation is basically the same as commenting on combat systems, or story. It is constructive, not restrictive. The artist is free to act on or ignore the criticism.

 

What is controlling is when people try to shut down discussion by telling people not to interfere with an artist's creative freedom.

 

Of course no one ever tells people criticsing the combat mechancis to stop controlling the dev's artistic freedom. I wonder why.

[andar91]

All people have the right to be free, within the bounds of the law., So no? free would be a privilege to everyone not just straight male gamers

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying or what you think I'm saying, but I'll reiterate:

 

I am not saying there should be some sort of restriction on developers to make certain types of games. People are free to write/design all of the straight male characters they want.

 

However, those creations do not exist in a vacuum and there is a pattern of those creations being in the majority. Continuing to create that pattern does nothing to help issues like sexism or homophobia or racism and so on. They aren't inherently bad, they just aren't being part of the solution because media DOES HAVE AN EFFECT on how we think.

[Nashimura]

People always cry out about stifling creativity by pandering to minorities.... Pandering to straight men is not only the most popular form of pandering, but doesn't it also stifle creativity?  

[Rawgrim]

I believe so; the first male gay companion.

 

Cool. Makes him kind of a historic character then.

[Rawgrim]

no Juhani was gay I believe

 

Ahh. Didn't know she was gay. Very cool character, though.

[Panda]

Cool. Makes him kind of a historic character then.

 

Has there been lesbian character before? I have only played Dragon Age and Mass Effect series and there hasn't been one.

 

EDIT: Oh, okay there is Juhani, the girl with guys name ^^;

[ghostzodd]

So you're not even reading the evidence he gives you.

 

How very open minded.

 

You sir have wounded me, I need go reflect on my ideas now. I don't trust gaming sites like polygon so why would I want to listen to their *evidence*?

 

 

But you're saying that people shouldn't be free to say developers are being sexist/racist/homophobic.

 

Also I'm going to keep reminding you: you said earlier that people in this thread have said that all straight people are intolerant. I would like a direct quote please.

 

 

Or you can admit that you were lying.

 

[what]

My problem with Dorian being gay is that he seems to be more and more like a stereotype of a gayman.

I hoped they avoid such tropes, sadly gay guy = flamboyant. They could just as easily portrayed Dorian as a straight man, while having someone like Blackwell as the gay guy.

Plenty of straight guys are into fashion and all flamboyant nowadays (like the Australian comic rove)
While plenty of gay guys are marcho as hell but just so happen to be attracted to other man.

Sadly Bioware seems to be heading further towards stereotypes rather then away from them.
Lesbian = butch hair cut
Gay guy = flamboyant
Bi= root anything that moves

At this rate I'm expecting DA4's token gay guy to be covered in glitter running around in a G-String and carrying on like that "Jack" character from will and grace.

 

There isn't really anything wrong with these stereotypes because flamboyant gay men and butch lesbians are a big part of the gay community. Not only that, but they usually have to deal with the majority of homophobia and abuse. There isn't really anything wrong with these sorts of stereotypes. Whilst it's good if they include masculine gay men and feminine gay woman are represented as well, gay people who don't conform to ideas about how different genders should act aren't really doing any harm at all. 

[ghostzodd]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying or what you think I'm saying, but I'll reiterate:

 

I am not saying there should be some sort of restriction on developers to make certain types of games. People are free to write/design all of the straight male characters they want.

 

However, those creations do not exist in a vacuum and there is a pattern of those creations being in the majority. Continuing to create that pattern does nothing to help issues like sexism or homophobia or racism and so on. They aren't inherently bad, they just aren't being part of the solution because media DOES HAVE AN EFFECT on how we think.

 

Why is it a game developers job to help issues like sexism , racism, or homophobia?

[mikeymoonshine]

Why do these arguments always go the same way. 

 

You guys are never going to reach common ground on these issues if you keep trying to demonize people who disagree with you and yes that goes for both sides. 

 

The hysteria about Dorian's homosexuality was stirred up a lot by the news websites who reported on it. They reported it as though it was some big announcement bioware had made and not just part of an interview about the character. That doesn't excuse those who reacted in a homophobic way but it probably wouldn't have been such a big thing if they hadn't done that. So I blame them for it more than anyone else. 

[andar91]

There isn't really anything wrong with these stereotypes because flamboyant gay men and butch lesbians are a big part of the gay community. Not only that, but they usually have to deal with the majority of homophobia and abuse. There isn't really anything wrong with these sorts of stereotypes. Whilst it's good if they include masculine gay men and feminine gay woman are represented as well, gay people who don't conform to ideas about how different genders should act aren't really doing any harm at all. 

 

Okay, need to break this apart a bit. It is true that being a feminine guy or butch lesbian and so on is not wrong or a problem, and those types of characters need representation. However, it's dangerous to start claiming that they get more abuse than others; it would probably be more accurate to say that they receive abuse that others don't get, but that doesn't mean a feminine lesbian, for instance, doesn't suffer from homophobia or sexism.

 

Also, I'll quote Chimamanda Adichie: "The problem with a stereotype is not that it is wrong, but that it is incomplete." Those stereotypes aren't wrong, per se, but there's something very wrong if that's the majority of what we're getting all of the time. We need balance and variety is basically what I'm saying.

 

Why is it a game developers job to help issues like sexism , racism, or homophobia?

 

It's not their job, and their under no obligation to do so.

 

That said, they have the power to help the situation, and if they choose not to do it, then they're choosing to allow those things to continue. We're all in this world together; it'd be nice if everybody did what they could to make it a better place for everyone.

[Diefenbaker]

I never said you were, I said the people complaining about the "social justice warriors" are. It just seems like that's a phrase people use everytime someone calls them out for saying something innapropriate. I'm sorry if that caused any offense, I'm not looking for an argument.

 

That's a technique people use in order to shame people out of speaking out against things that aren't fair. Which is awful because it works...

 

I haven't seen that much backlash against Dorian which may mean I either haven't looked in the right places or sadly my brain is too used to seeing it and attempted to block it out.

[Panda]

Why is it a game developers job to help issues like sexism , racism, or homophobia?

 

Cause they can make difference... It's not just them, movies, tv-series, comics, lot of thing are getting more diverse. I think partially it's because they want to hold certain values which is diversity and then also finally accepting that their fanbase is diverse as well.

[mikeymoonshine]

People always cry out about stifling creativity by pandering to minorities.... Pandering to straight men is not only the most popular form of pandering, but doesn't it also stifle creativity?  

 

To be fair to them this is a total straw man. I agree that minorities should be represented but if you can't bring a legitimate argument against them then how can you be right? 

[ghostzodd]

Cause they can make difference... It's not just them, movies, tv-series, comics, lot of thing are getting more diverse. I think partially it's because they want to hold certain values which is diversity and then also finally accepting that their fanbase is diverse as well.

 

But its not that their job to do that. I am pretty sure most devs just want to make good games/provide for their family.Not worrying about the progressive movement which is sweeping nerd culture, where people keep crying  misogyny/homephobia

[Melca36]

People are idiots.

 

I don't give a rat's A** what sexuality the characters are.   I am secure in my identity and I plan to roll characters for ALL of them.   I will roll a male rogue for Dorian, a female mage for Sera, A human for IB (Have not decided which gender) I will roll Inquisitors for ALL of them.

[Melca36]

Cause they can make difference... It's not just them, movies, tv-series, comics, lot of thing are getting more diverse. I think partially it's because they want to hold certain values which is diversity and then also finally accepting that their fanbase is diverse as well.

 

I definitely AGREE with that.

 

But there are also people who take it too far and end up becoming bullies about it.  

[BadgerladDK]

...The lowest common denominator (straight male gamers, aka the traditional demographic, dudebros in many cases) are attracted to women...

 

Geee, I wonder where someone would get the idea that this is now a "straight males are bad" thread. Nothing like being referred to as the lowest common denominator to build support.

 

I'm in favour of equal rights and representation for everyone, but getting really damned tired of being personally blamed for the lack of it by the advocacy group of the hour. I'll no more apologize for who I am than they should have to.

 

Back on topic: Haven't seen much outrage about either Dorian / Sera or Cortez / Traynor here, or in any media I take seriously. If you go looking for comments on youtube or the like, you're setting yourself up for an utter lack of faith in humanity no matter the topic. Pretty sure that place could turn a statement about water being wet into a 1000 comment flamewar. "Don't read the comments" didn't become a meme out of the blue.

 

Personally, I found Cortez' story really well told in ME3, and I see no reason I won't enjoy hanging with Dorian either, even if romance isn't a primary motivator for me in games.

[Panda]

But its not that their job to do that. I am pretty sure most devs just want to make good games not have to worry about this progressive movement which is sweeping nerd culture

 

Well while I agree that if game company wants to have their straight white male protagonist they can have it but they need to realise that it's alienating to some parts of their audience especially if they are always going by same character type. Personally I like playing those characters as well but when you look at your options and only find couple female protagonists.. or none gay one's it's going to feel like you aren't wanted.

 

All people want is diversity and better represantation (better female/gay/etc. characters).

[Flog the Undying]

But its not that their job to do that. I am pretty sure most devs just want to make good games not have to worry about this progressive movement which is sweeping nerd culture, where people keep crying rampant  misogyny/homephobia

 

When you can't even spell homophobia, your argument is unlikely to go far.

 

Regardless, it's not just sweeping nerd culture. It's sweeping all western culture, due to the fact that over time, whether you like it or not, modern civilisations become more and more progressive.

 

It's also not their job to only include, or give preferential treatment to, straight while males. But they in a position where they can truly make a change to the world where homosexuals are far more likely to kill themselves than straight people because of culture and where women can still legally be sentenced to death for BEING raped.

[mikeymoonshine]

Cause they can make difference... It's not just them, movies, tv-series, comics, lot of thing are getting more diverse. I think partially it's because they want to hold certain values which is diversity and then also finally accepting that their fanbase is diverse as well.

 

There are right ways and wrong ways about going about this. Labeling a game developers as racist, homophobic, sexist ect for not having enough minorities in their games is the wrong way, it's a dirty tactic. Showing devs that you want games to be more diverse and that you would buy those games is the right way to go. 

 

The DA series is a good case study to show that LGBT content in games can be profitable.

[ghostzodd]

When you can't even spell homophobia, your argument is unlikely to go far.

 

Regardless, it's not just sweeping nerd culture. It's sweeping all western culture, due to the fact that over time, whether you like it or not, modern civilisations become more and more progressive.

 

Oh my gosh I made a spelling mistake because I type fast, I HAVE DISHONORED MY FAMILY NAME!!!!! Thank you for helping me see the errors of my ways,.