228 réponses à ce sujet

[andar91]

But it's very easy to find stereotypes if you look for them and gay people that are "stereotypical" really are getting a tremendous amount of hate thrown their way even within the lgbt community, especially effeminate gay men. 

 

Why is how "steriotypical" Dorian is the most important thing about him for some people? Criticizing his interest in fashion as stereotypical for example, when most noble's outside of Ferelden probably have a similar interest in fashion. So you either avoid a stereotype for the sake of avoiding a stereotype or you create a realistic character. 

 

Butch, hairy, masculine gay guy is also a stereotype and it actually is used a lot in the media. So I don't think making him like Blackwall would actually have been helpful. 

 

1st paragraph: Agreed 100%.

 

2nd paragraph: Agreed on the badness of criticizing Dorian for his fashion choice and such. Assimilation of queer people into straight culture is a huge problem - nobody should have to assimilate and erase their differences just to be accepted.

 

I only said what I said because I hate the idea that a stereotype is somehow realistic. It is...and it isn't, and this is what comes from having only a few token members of minorities. OR characters that are reduced solely to their stereotype. Best case scenario: we have multiple representations of multiple groups that are different from each other (i.e. we can have gay men that are both butch, femme, and everything in between).

[Melca36]

Oh this is new to me. I haven't seen this kind of behaviour from female gamers. Well that's sad then : /

 

Yeah I've seen them refer to the f/f pairings as gross.   Its wrong to put one pairing on a shrine and then be mean to others who enjoy the game differently.  The greatest thing about these games is that we have choices.   

[SardaukarElite]

It's also why I get a little sad when people make dismissive comments about:  "Dorian is being shoved in our faces with his sexuality" and "I couldn't care less that Dorian is gay, so what?"  It is a big deal that he's gay and that should be celebrated by everyone.  It's why I really appreciated your comment.  Even a little side comment like, "Cool!" is nice to see.
 

 

Some people are aggressively uninterested, it's not enough that they aren't interested other people shouldn't be interested either. That strikes me as paradoxical, but anyway. I think it's cool Dorian and Sera are on the team.

 

 

But in today's world lesbians and bisexual women are more accepted then gay and bixsexual men, and media views impact people a lot more then they think atr times.

 

Are they more accepted or is there just a fantasy of them that's tolerated?

[mikeymoonshine]

But that's not really what's happening here.

 

Game developer companies are made up of lots of different people; just because one or two of them are racist, for instance, doesn't necessarily mean the whole company is.

 

We're talking about what they put out - their product - actually does/portrays. There is no magical number or place where a game (or any media) becomes perfect, but we can still try to do better. You can be the most inclusive person in the world, but if you continually put out, let's say, a comic that does nothing to challenge social problems, then it's...not doing anything to challenge those problems.

 

Here as in on this forum? No, but generalisations and accusations like that are being made about game development companies, gamers and gaming culture all the time. 

You have already skipped to a situation where people actually are racist. I was talking about a situation where people get accused of being racist for not being inclusive enough. You can pretend that doesn't happen but by doing that you are only going to damage the causes you stand for by making your "side" appear unreasonable. 

 

Why should a comic challenge social problems? 

[BloodyTalon]

Some people are aggressively uninterested, it's not enough that they aren't interested other people shouldn't be interested either. That strikes me as paradoxical, but anyway. I think it's cool Dorian and Sera are on the team.

 

 

 

Are they more accepted or is there just a fantasy of them that's tolerated?

In the U.S.A it really depends on what part of the country you are from really.

[Melca36]

Blashphemy!
 

I kid, I'm just a pretty avid Mshenkwoah supporter

 

Thanks for not being offended.  Kaidan/mShep just did not do it for me.   There was little cute and sexy banter between missions. And it looks like they just used most of the fShep/Kaidan dialogue and worked around it.   Had they made a better effort...I'd probably think differently.

[BadgerladDK]

Why should a comic challenge social problems? 

 

Correct answer, I suppose is "because its creators want to and are able to". Which is cool, knock yourselves out. Just don't demonize the ones who want to tell another story. That's their choice as well. Chances are their story won't be as good as the one that embraces a more inclusive view of society, but that's their gamble to take.

[mikeymoonshine]

1st paragraph: Agreed 100%.

 

2nd paragraph: Agreed on the badness of criticizing Dorian for his fashion choice and such. Assimilation of queer people into straight culture is a huge problem - nobody should have to assimilate and erase their differences just to be accepted.

 

I only said what I said because I hate the idea that a stereotype is somehow realistic. It is...and it isn't, and this is what comes from having only a few token members of minorities. OR characters that are reduced solely to their stereotype. Best case scenario: we have multiple representations of multiple groups that are different from each other (i.e. we can have gay men that are both butch, femme, and everything in between).

 

Ok, I don't really disagree with any of that. It would be nice to see more diversity within the pool of lgbt characters and I can see why it would be bad for them not to be diverse. I still don't think Biowares representation is all that bad though, there have been some issues but i am hopeful for the future. I just think it will take time.

[andar91]

 I was talking about a situation where people get accused of being racist for not being inclusive enough. You can pretend that doesn't happen but by doing that you are only going to damage the causes you stand for by making your "side" appear unreasonable. 

 

Why should a comic challenge social problems? 

 

It probably does happen. I haven't seen it, but I'm reasonably sure it happens. Granted, many people seem to misunderstand these conversations. When feminists, for instance, say something like 'Men have oppressed women for years" and they all froth and rage about how "Not all men are like that!" they fail to see that that wasn't what was being said. If you're into technicalities of language, then I guess you could read it that way, but I really think it's a deliberate twisting of what they're actually saying. In the case of game companies, I think most reasonable people understand that a product doesn't necessarily reflect everyone in the company. You can be a decent non-racist person and still produce a racist book or whatever.

 

Why should a comic challenge social problems?

 

Because it can. Why shouldn't it? If it's a problem (these things are), than I think it would be best if anyone who could do something to fix it do so within reason. Asking for some decent representation isn't really asking all that much - I'm not saying video games should center around these issues (at least not all of them, though I guess some could), but they can still do things like provide fully-developed characters that are also people of color or queer or trans and so on.

 

Edit: Also wanted to add (sorry I'm so long-winded) that, no, a comic doesn't have to challenge these social issues. But if it doesn't, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't bug me if it makes them worse, and I'm certainly not giving away cookies for people who do nothing.

[phantomrachie]

I only problem I have with him...is his mustache... just not loving it.

 

Heathen!

 

Dorian's mustache is fabulous    so sexy 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Why were you unhappy about both of those but not unhappy that Blackwall isn't available for male inquisitors and cass isn't available for female ones?

 

Because of stereotypes...or something?

 

Because as of now, I like Dorian and Sera more than Blackwall and Cassandra ? 

[Flog the Undying]

Because as of now, I like Dorian and Sera more than Blackwall and Cassandra ? 

 

Oh, I thought you meant unhappy for other people than yourself.

[phantomrachie]

But what your advocating is controlling someones idea. lets say If Rockstar wants 3 male protagonists for their game then why do you people get mad about that? That was *their* own vision for *their* game

 

Personally, I was upset for two reasons. One, I've being playing GTA games for years and it would be nice to finally play a character of my own gender and two, their reason for not including any women was that they wanted to tell a masculine story, which would be fine except that nothing that happened in their story was solely masculine.

 

Gender swap any of the GTA protagonists and it doesn't make a huge difference to the story.

 

Make Michael, Michelle and you could still have the same story of a retired bank robber with a love hate relation with her husband and kids, with the added bonus of the tension that can happen in a couple if the wife makes more money than the husband.

 

Leave Amanda a woman and BAM! you've created even more diversity by having a lesbian couple.

 

A female Franklin is basically just my character from Saints Row 2, only with no gang, so there is no change there.

 

I can't see Tanya being that different from Trevor either, (I couldn't think of a closer female equivalent name).

 

Why is it a game developers job to help issues like sexism , racism, or homophobia?

 

Because the Media was taken in as a huge effect on us, Media can be used to help or hinder issues that people face on a daily bases.

 

Media being more includes helps create empathy, I’m a woman, yet I’ve spent most of my gaming life playing male characters.

As I've played these characters, I've gotten to know them, gotten to know their personalities and their stories, this makes it easier for me to empathise with them.

 

I've had to travel in the shoes of a person of another gender and this helps me to empathise with men I meet in the real world. I’ve learnt that the world is not centred around me and my needs, but around the needs  of the human race in general.

 

Not everyone learns these lessons from games and games are not the only form of media that taught me these things but they have certainly helped.

 

I’m not sure if I would've learnt this lessons and become as empathic as I am, if all the protagonists I’d ever played where Irish blonde women.

 

Would I be different if I'd never had to step outside my own skin and had to identify as an American white man?

I’m not sure, but I know by having most protagonists as males, we are denying any men the opportunity to be taught the same thing by games that I was.

[Ammonite]

 
Are they more accepted or is there just a fantasy of them that's tolerated?

I wouldn't say les/bi women are 'more accepted' as much as their sexuality is simply taken less seriously. For example, when lesbians do get screentime on tv, a disquieting number of them are there to eventually have sex with either the leading man or some other male in the show/movie.

[mikeymoonshine]

It probably does happen. I haven't seen it, but I'm reasonably sure it happens. Granted, many people seem to misunderstand these conversations. When feminists, for instance, say something like 'Men have oppressed women for years" and they all froth and rage about how "Not all men are like that!" they fail to see that that wasn't what was being said. If you're into technicalities of language, then I guess you could read it that way, but I really think it's a deliberate twisting of what they're actually saying. In the case of game companies, I think most reasonable people understand that a product doesn't necessarily reflect everyone in the company. You can be a decent non-racist person and still produce a racist book or whatever.

 

I am not massively fond of the "people don't understand what we are saying" argument. If you are using language that is not accessible to the public then it is your fault. Feminist academics and scholars may not mean that when they say those things but that doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. 

A feminist is just as likely to misunderstand the feminist academic as an anti-feminist. This feminist could easily make the same conclusion as the anti-feminist did and just decide that it must be true because an intelligent educated person said it. 

Being on the right side does not mean you understood and I actually believe there are many feminists who do not understand the concepts and theories they argue for. 

 

 

Why should a comic challenge social problems?

 

Because it can. Why shouldn't it? If it's a problem (these things are), than I think it would be best if anyone who could do something to fix it do so within reason. Asking for some decent representation isn't really asking all that much - I'm not saying video games should center around these issues (at least not all of them, though I guess some could), but they can still do things like provide fully-developed characters that are also people of color or queer or trans and so on.

 

Edit: Also wanted to add (sorry I'm so long-winded) that, no, a comic doesn't have to challenge these social issues. But if it doesn't, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't bug me if it makes them worse, and I'm certainly not giving away cookies for people who do nothing.

 

I am just not fond of the idea that entertainment needs to be this big education project, It sounds a little bit like you are proposing propaganda to me. I would love to see more entertainment media that does have something political to say and does do things a little bit differently but that's not really the main function for entertainment media, it's there to be entertaining. I have to stress that I am not saying that it can't promote political ideas like equality, in fact I would love it if more did but I don't see why it needs to. 

[ElitePinecone]

Based on what little we've seen, it's really hard to dissmis Dorian as just a precursor to token gay guys covered in glitter running around in G-Strings.
And actively avoiding each and every 'gay stereotype' would be wrong too, because people would (rightfully) complain that Bioware is only willing to show gay characters if they 'look straight enough'.

 

Yep.

 

I can't see a problem with Dorian at all, and it's far too early to be throwing around accusations of stereotypes when we know nothing about the character. Saying that he's too flamboyant seems like code for "gay characters are fine as long as they never express their sexuality in any way nor give any indication that they're anything but straight".

 

It's also worth noting that a flamboyant character can subvert that trope by also being other things.

 

Dorian is smart, idealistic and noble, which aren't exactly common attributes for "token gay characters" that people seem so worried about.

[VelvetStraitjacket]

I'm hoping for some glamorous drag queens in their future titles. 

[andar91]

I am just not fond of the idea that entertainment needs to be this big education project, It sounds a little bit like you are proposing propaganda to me. I would love to see more entertainment media that does have something political to say and does do things a little bit differently but that's not really the main function for entertainment media, it's there to be entertaining. I have to stress that I am not saying that it can't promote political ideas like equality, in fact I would love it if more did but I don't see why it needs to. 

 

I am just not fond of the idea that entertainment...or anything...is apolitical.

 

Just because creators set out to make something primarily meant for entertainment does not mean it does not send messages about things like sexuality or race or a billion other things. Whether they want it to (or intended it to) isn't really relevant - it does.

 

I want to stress that entertainment IS still primarily entertainment - I'm not proposing some sort of checklist that everything should have to go through. Gaider's talked about this at his GDC talk - no one piece of media can be everything to everybody, and if it tried, it would probably feel incredibly artificial. Of course writers are gonna tell the stories they want to tell. All I'm saying is that when we tell / create those stories, discussions and considerations about what you're saying to your audience about very real social problems and groups not fall off the table because they do say something. Telling story after story that includes absolutely no queer characters, to just name one example, is not probably sending a very great message about those characters. It's erasing them.

 

I'm gonna leave this because I think it does a really nice job of talking about this sort of thing. It's focused on gender, but I think it applies to all creative work.

 

http://www.wired.com...-females-media/

[mikeymoonshine]

I'm hoping for some glamorous drag queens in their future titles. 

 

She's not a drag queen but if they had Maevaris as a companion in a future game or an Expansion of DA:I I would be so very happy. 

 

[Panda]

I think the stereotypes become problem when they become insults and are used as such. Also sometimes these stereotypes are forcing people in molds or outside of these molds. For example I'm straight female but I have quite tomboyish look. Some of my relatives have problem with this, they always comment that I should wear dresses or that my hair would look better long. There has been some comments that if I cut my hair short I look lesbian so I shouldn't do that : /

[VelvetStraitjacket]

She's not a drag queen but if they had Maevaris as a companion in a future game or an Expansion of DA:I I would be so very happy. 

 

 

A transgender character inspired by Mae West, you say?

Yes, please. Pretty please.

[andar91]

A transgender character inspired by Mae West, you say?

Yes, please. Pretty please.

 

I'd love for her to appear.

 

I don't have my hopes up, but I would dance.

[BadgerladDK]

I think Word of Gaider came down on Maevaris as "Not in DA:I, character was created too late to be included this time, but not ruled out for future games".

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Some people are aggressively uninterested, it's not enough that they aren't interested other people shouldn't be interested either. That strikes me as paradoxical, but anyway. I think it's cool Dorian and Sera are on the team.

 

 

 

Are they more accepted or is there just a fantasy of them that's tolerated?

 

In Southeast Asia, lesbians are tolerated and accepted more than gays. You have laws in this region, in nations like Malaysian and Singapore where if you are a gay male, you can fined or imprisoned or caned whereas if you are a lesbian, its okay. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I think Word of Gaider came down on Maevaris as "Not in DA:I, character was created too late to be included this time, but not ruled out for future games".

She wasn't created in time to make it into the game, according to him.  

 

I still have my fingers crossed for a DLC appearance though.  Mae is just awesome.