68 réponses à ce sujet

[-Semper-]

Feel free to show me a "forest" done with nwn2. And yes, NWN is very different. We have different types of forests created ourself that all feel very unique in it´s own way.

 

i know that you were setting a trap (aka ravencast forest), but please don't compare unique tilesets created with the help of an external program with "vanilla" content. the same can be achieved with the electron engine. we can import tilesets and treat them as external areas. we can create the same area with terrain sculpting and imported custom textures. we can even mix and match terrain sculpting with speedtrees, custom mesh trees and placeables (also premodeled terrain parts), and scale them on the fly. we can place rivers, seas, ponds and waterfalls wherever and in whatever look we want, without premade and exact copies of the same or partly different looking tiles.

it should be obvious that an almost exact copy of a nwn1 area can be imported/created within nwn2. only custom sky domes are difficult because in nwn2 they will lack a day/night cycle.

 

it's true that it takes time to create a very good looking external area, but the same time (perhaps even more because of uving and texturing) was spent to create a custom tileset for nwn1.

[NWN_baba yaga]

It was not meant to be a trap even now that you said it it could have looked so. And yeah i´m honest that i´m pretty biased and proud of my own work but that doesnt mean that i see my own stuff as better (how it works within the game you work with) as the content from other people. So while i´m biased due to my own interest or mens hours i invested i´m always open to others content from where i can learn or be inspired by. Thats why i said we cant realy compare both games for a reason. We had much more time to work for NWN and our content isnt as highend as yours while ours on the other hand maybe more diverse or unqiue whatever. We two have pros and cons with our games

 

And we two have a completey different way on how to work on stuff. I dont think any of you nwn2 guys know how i start or work on exterior tilesets. I think i have a very different mindset because of the limitations i have and so on....

 

well, we could debate a whole day about content creation and limitations you and I have and what side can do but in the end it will end as just we dont agree cuz when i´m honest i dont know anything that i havent done yet with NWN that is basic modeling or VFX stuff.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 06 octobre 2014 - 05:19 .

[-Semper-]

it just sounded like you tried to argue about that nwn2 ain't being capable of rendering a forest area, while in fact it's possible to create the exact same area as in nwn. whereas the other way around is a dead end.

[NWN_baba yaga]

Yes you have to invest a lot of time in tilesets for NWN and everything is possible with it if you want it. Thats why I do content because i love it and it is challenging too and thats the reward. And i didnt said the engine cant render just that you didnt have done it yet or i may have missed it. Until now i have not seen a forest in nwn2 style that looks like a forest to me. Is it easier for NWN to do so, yeah sure and it will never look as "fancy" but that doesnt matter to me. It´s the feeling. I still love old school fps games that have atmosphere...

[rjshae]

Well again it falls down to personal preference. I've lived next to forests for most of my life and the exterior areas in NWN2 seem perfectly suited to building a forest much like in my back yard; down to the randomized shapes, swaying motions, and seasonal leaf variants. NWN2 could use some more fallen and rotted tree placeables though.

[NWN_baba yaga]

yes and no!

 

before we troll each other very soon about "forests" hehehe we should just disagree all together and just let it rot

[henesua]

I think as people talk around this one issue of how areas and their terrains are built in each of the engines you can start to see where preference comes in.

 

You've got talk about how much more is possible in NWN2, and what is already done in NWN1. Those that want to spend the time making beautiful areas and things in NWN2 will. Folks like myself however don't want to spend the time.

 

Its all about preference. There's no way to logically debate this.

 

Ultimately thats the point I was trying to make. That I don't even really have reasons for sticking with NWN1 so much as that I enjoy it, and its low commitment as a hobby when compared to what I was doing before with real game dev tools that absorbed all my time and asked for more and more and more.

 

There a reason why questions like this get flagged as flame bait on "Answers" websites. And thats because there is no definitive answer. People with a stake in one or the other will argue over why their choice is superior. But in the end… one's choice may be superior for them, but not for others.

 

I like how people are handling this old fire though. There seems to be more of a live and let live attitude here which I think is great. That allows us to simply share our "reasons" for why we like what we like. And I did enjoy just rambling out my post above.

[virusman]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Linux support, low resource usage of NWN1 server vs. NWN2 and the number of NWNX plugins available for NWN1 vs. NWN2. These may be significant for PW hosters/owners. These were the main reasons why we decided not to switch to NWN2.

[NWN_baba yaga]

FIRE IN THE HOLE

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I've always thought NWN2 sucked. The gameplay, character customization restrictions, camera, multiplayer... and I wasn't able to figure out the toolset. The original NWN was the only game where I ever managed to learn the toolset.

[kalbaern]

When NWN2 first came out, I wasn't keen on the gameplay or mechanics myself. Knowing it was moddable though tempered my early opinions as I just figured others would soon let loose a plethora of new -things- for it. A little later, some friends talked me into helping them develope a new PW using NWN2. I have to admit, I liked building in NWN2 at first, despite a slightly steeper learning curve. What I did come to be frustrated with however was the frequency with which maps would corrupt on me while baking them in. The shear time to create areas also exceeded by leaps and bounds what I could produce in NWN. eventually, I just got frustrated and gave up.

[Urk]

NWN2 didn't suck. I'll admit I was disappointed with it, but it was still a fun game. I would have preferred some significant gameplay improvements beside the total party control (which was really more of a throwback to BG than a particularly innovative gameplay improvement). I hate to keep harping on it, but Obs saw how badly the community wanted mounts; how hard they struggled to make it happen. That should have been a no brainer. The same goes for a Z-Axis. Dragons fly. Wizards fly. Aerie water. Dragon Turtles. There's really no excuse for a Dungeons and Dragons game published in 2006 to not include a Z-Axis.

BUT...

It was still a good game. Maybe not an entirely worthy successor to NWN, but still good.

And let's not forget who the publisher was. Atari was notorious for crushing new titles, stifling innovation, pinching pennies, cutting corners, and sabotaging their studios with stupid top down management decisions. Atari was a company in a nosedive between NWN and NWN2. The company was so poorly managed they had to force their shareholders into a 10:1 reverse split just to keep themselves on the exchanges. By the time NWN2 came along the company was being run by guys who shouldn't have been running a corner bodega. Remember the MoW DRM debacle? Their incompetent handling of MoW crushed NWN2 into dust before it was even halfway through it's development cycle.

Look at NWN2's contemporaries. Demonstone. Dragonshard. Tactics.

Considering it was a 2006 Atari title NWN2 should have sucked, but it didn't. 

Daggerdale, anyone?

Thank God Hasbro finally shook those losers off.

[Lazarus Magni]

For me it comes down to 2 things, a) I am under the impression you can't do nearly as much with NWN2 as you can do with NWN1. Maybe (and a big maybe) not true out of the box, but given what you can do with plugins, as virusman mentioned, it certainly is true.

 

And b ) a real kicker for me, was NWN2's decision to not be backward compatible with NWN1. Not wanting to lose insane thousands of hours by hundreds of contributors on our PW alone, was the reason previous owners of our world did not make the switch, and it my reasoning as well.

 

RoT is one of the few worlds that made the tranisition, but they pretty much had to rebuild from scratch.

 

Not worth slightly better graphics and less ability to customize was my take. Wayyyyy to many hours put in by way to many people to just chuck it.

[Shadooow]

The point of that question is that NWN2 is a said successor. So obviously thats the reason why NWN2 modders avoid NWN1 and why are they so interested knowing why NWN1 modders avoid NWN2.

 

But I dont think that there is many ppls in NWN1 community who would agree with NWN2 being successor to NWN1.

[Grani]

The point of that question is that NWN2 is a said successor. So obviously thats the reason why NWN2 modders avoid NWN1 and why are they so interested knowing why NWN1 modders avoid NWN2.

 

But I dont think that there is many ppls in NWN1 community who would agree with NWN2 being successor to NWN1.

 

I wanted to try NWN2, but when I did, I realized immediately that it's a totally different game. The only similarities are that both of them are based on D&D.

And, frankly, I didn't like one bit of this "successor" to NWN.

[rjshae]

The point of that question is that NWN2 is a said successor. So obviously thats the reason why NWN2 modders avoid NWN1 and why are they so interested knowing why NWN1 modders avoid NWN2.

 

But I dont think that there is many ppls in NWN1 community who would agree with NWN2 being successor to NWN1.

 

A point of clarification here: keep in mind that the thread was started by one person, so I find these sorts of all encompassing statements to be somewhat biased. Thus your use of 'they' should really be 'he', and 'modders' should be 'modder'. It doesn't necessarily reflect everybody's opinion in the NWN2 modding community.

 

As for your assertion about modders avoiding NWN just because NWN2 is it's successor, well I'm pretty sure that most haven't said anything like that. The reasons usually given are the improved graphics or specific features in the game engine, such as party control or improved scripting.

 

That being said, both threads do make for some interesting reading.

[Frith5]

I think the logic of the original question may be off a bit: Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2? Is it avoiding NWN2 to mod NWN instead (or any other game, for that matter)? How many people mod (to a pretty great extent) more than a single game? The fact (disputable and disputed, obviously) that the two games are similar could, if anything, be seen as more reason for someone not to mod both. Why mod one when you're already modding the other?

I think the question is really:

Why don't NWN modders stop modding NWN and instead mod NWN2?

See, if it's phrased like that, it sounds a bit different. BUT!!!! I could be wrong about the OP's intent with the question.

 

As for the quality of NWN2, I think it's a fun enough game to play, once it's patched up and you have a capable rig. The controlling of PC movement, coupled with the camera focus, is not my favorite thing. But I enjoyed a few modules I played. From a toolset perspective, the toolset doesn't seem hard to learn, in the same way that learning to apply paint to a canvas doesn't seem hard to learn. One can learn the fundamental motions, swiftly enough, but that doesn't make one a skilled artist.

I think NWN2 is an easel. It can create some beautiful 3d environments that are a pleasure. But to me, it feels more like looking at a beautiful painting and less like wandering through a world. Area transitions are jarring and kick me straight out of any feeling of being in a world. Movement seems disconnected from the environment. Worst of all to me though, is that however pretty it might look, I always felt like I was trapped in a narrow channel -- a very sweet looking narrow channel, bumping up against invisible walls that stopped me from going over to look at a rock that was just off the trail. NWN feels bigger, more open, and thus (to me) more real.

 

To each his own, and I sincerely wish everyone playing or modding either or both games to HAVE FUN doing it. Games = fun.

 

Regards,

JFK

[Tchos]

The OP's intent was born of a puzzlement after seeing the thread "Why hasn't there been another game like NWN?"

[icywind1980]

Just adding my own experience: My very first PW: Soul Forge made the switch to NWN 2 in early 2008, even though about half of the player base was against it. They had to rebuild everything from scratch and nothing looked even remotely the same. They basically decided to scrap everything that we had ever known and make something that just had similar sounding names. Long story short, we lost almost all of our player base. The diehard nwn 1 fans tried the new server, maybe once or twice but than quit and even those pro the switch became disenfranchised with all the new changes and left. I don't know if this answers why nwn 1 modders avoid nwn 2, but it probably answers why nwn 1 players avoid nwn 2. Perhaps the two groups are intertwined.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I think the logic of the original question may be off a bit: Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2? Is it avoiding NWN2 to mod NWN instead (or any other game, for that matter)? How many people mod (to a pretty great extent) more than a single game? The fact (disputable and disputed, obviously) that the two games are similar could, if anything, be seen as more reason for someone not to mod both. Why mod one when you're already modding the other?

I think the question is really:

Why don't NWN modders stop modding NWN and instead mod NWN2?

See, if it's phrased like that, it sounds a bit different. BUT!!!! I could be wrong about the OP's intent with the question.

 

You are mistaken about my intent.  I was not suggesting that modders abandon NWN in favor of NWN2.  What I see is two communities of modders both spending their time trying to increase the community content for two aging games.  Unlike the games before them, like BG and IWD, NWN and NWN2 included actual toolsets that could be used to dissect and learn and produce.  From what I understand the toolsets that have been released for more recent games are lacking in capabilities and so that leaves NWN and NWN2 in a special place.  Some people have a foot firmly in both communities and some do not. Some, like me, have played both games but only mod one. And many, it seems, avoid one or the other completely.

 

I remember pre-ordering NWN. As a Mac owner I recall being ecstatic that they announced simultaneous platform release on Windows, Mac, and Linux. I couldn't wait to get my hands on it.  But it turned out that they lied. It was only released on Windows and the Windows laptop I had for work couldn't run it. I then had to wait for the Mac version to be released and pay for that separately.  I remember being very disappointed and feeling ripped off and I suppose I could have just turned my back on the whole thing, but instead I played it, purchased multiple copies and the expansions, and enjoyed it.  When NWN2 was announced I had no delusions of it being multi-platform and knew what I was getting. So I stuck with it.  After modding NWN2 a while I did start looking at the NWN toolset and I found it to be less than satisfying.

 

What I was hoping to learn from the thread was more along the lines of what resources might be lacking that would allow modders to more readily cross between these two worlds, or even develop things that would work in both NWN and NWN2.  Ways we could improve modding for all of us using NWN and NWN2.

 

That was my intent.

 

Regards

[NWN_baba yaga]

I think we gave answers to the question why some NWN modders avoid nwn2. It´s a different game with different ways how to do content or to build adventures.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

The NWN 2 toolset was not as "user friendly" in my experience.

[Frith5]

You are mistaken about my intent.  I was not suggesting that modders abandon NWN in favor of NWN2.  What I see is two communities of modders both spending their time trying to increase the community content for two aging games.  Unlike the games before them, like BG and IWD, NWN and NWN2 included actual toolsets that could be used to dissect and learn and produce.  From what I understand the toolsets that have been released for more recent games are lacking in capabilities and so that leaves NWN and NWN2 in a special place.  Some people have a foot firmly in both communities and some do not. Some, like me, have played both games but only mod one. And many, it seems, avoid one or the other completely.

 

I remember pre-ordering NWN. As a Mac owner I recall being ecstatic that they announced simultaneous platform release on Windows, Mac, and Linux. I couldn't wait to get my hands on it.  But it turned out that they lied. It was only released on Windows and the Windows laptop I had for work couldn't run it. I then had to wait for the Mac version to be released and pay for that separately.  I remember being very disappointed and feeling ripped off and I suppose I could have just turned my back on the whole thing, but instead I played it, purchased multiple copies and the expansions, and enjoyed it.  When NWN2 was announced I had no delusions of it being multi-platform and knew what I was getting. So I stuck with it.  After modding NWN2 a while I did start looking at the NWN toolset and I found it to be less than satisfying.

 

What I was hoping to learn from the thread was more along the lines of what resources might be lacking that would allow modders to more readily cross between these two worlds, or even develop things that would work in both NWN and NWN2.  Ways we could improve modding for all of us using NWN and NWN2.

 

That was my intent.

 

Regards

That's more clear to me now, and it's really a pretty straightforward question at that: What can be done to promote cross-platform modding? (Er, IS that it?) I think it's a great idea, tbh. Well, my suggestion would be compiling tutorials that illustrate just the kinds of content that can (easily) work for both games, or adapt from one to the other. Directly adapting placeables from NWN2 to NWN has been ocurring almost since release. Likewise, I've seen many creature models adapted from NWN to NWN2. Gathering this sort of information into a single repository might be useful to get people thinking. I think it'd be cool to see content makes cooperate that way.

 

By the way, my own history with the two games is quite similar to yours. In fact, I watched all the development of NWN since I first learned of the project, and when it was nearing release I bought a new computer just to be able to run it! Years later, when NWN2 released, the same thing! I bought new computers for two D&D games! lol

[_Guile]

I have two words for you..... Time Loss

[Snowdog65]

the graphics: both games are horribly outdated by todays standards. but personally, the graphical level of nwn 2 (and that whole era of early normal mapped games) just looks the worst nowadays. i do in fact believe, that nwn looks better than nwn2. nwn has reached the point, where it just looks oldschool. nwn 2 instead looks like something from deep inside the uncanny valley.

 

Just another player perspective. I am giving NWN2 one last play before deleting it off my computer.

 

I feel pretty much the same. NWN2 just never worked for me.  It doesn't really look better for me. It looks weirder.  The animations in NWN2 all seem much worse than in NWN. Walking/running speed of legs doesn't seem to match ground covered. Combat animation seems to vary between merely having nothing to do with your hits and not happening at all. Which gives me the suspicion that elemental weapons create giant fireballs to obscure it.

 

 

NWN seems like a nearly ideal constructor kit for old school PnP adventures. Areas seem potentially much larger than NWN2 areas, which feels more constricted or require many more load screens. NWN2 makes for a more disconnected feel.

 

I feel like if you had a map you were using to create a game. In NWN you would just put the whole thing in there. Sure there would be a lot of empty areas if wanted to wander everywhere, but you could if you wanted to. In NWN2 I think you would create 10 small disconnected areas from that map that you could go to. The former has a much better feel to me, that latter feels artificial and constricting.

 

That is the feel I get from playing OC/Mods of both NWN/NWN2.  IMO NWN2 traded away too much, just for a more 3d landscape.