68 réponses à ce sujet

[Tchos]

Area size in NWN2 is up to 32x32 walkable tiles in both interiors and exteriors, except exterior "tiles" are megatiles of 4 tiles each.  Exteriors are surrounded by an additional 8 tile wide border all around, which is unwalkable but can be landscaped to provide continuity with other areas.  I'm pretty sure that comes out to 332 km² of walkable area in an exterior (82,038 acres).

 

My frequent complaint about locations in NWN2 is the opposite of yours, Snowdog.  I find them too often too colossal for what they're supposed to be.  Some people build dungeons where 1 square on the map = 1 tile in the game, but most D&D maps (at least for classic dungeons) use a 5 foot scale for each square (1.5 metres, 2.3 square metres), whereas a tile in NWN2 is 9 metres (81 square metres).

[Kaldor Silverwand]

The NWN2 OC certainly has many exterior areas which seem smaller than they should because of what you might call a look-but-don't-touch design choice. Many areas have broad walkable paths but rest of the area is completely blocked. This design prevents wandering around, as was possible in the NWN OC exterior areas. I have no inside track on the reasoning for this design choice, but my guess is that it has to do with a major difference between the games being that NWN2 fully supports both multi-player parties and single-player parties, whereas In NWN you basically have only 1 or 2 unless playing multi-player. When you have a large party tromping around an area you are far more likely to encounter pathing problems or have characters get stuck on placeables. By restricting the exploratory parts of an area you reduce that risk. It is a design choice, though, not an engine limitation. I ha e taken several of the NWN2 OC areas and repurposed them exposing more of their walkable areas.

Regards

[rjshae]

NWN seems like a nearly ideal constructor kit for old school PnP adventures. Areas seem potentially much larger than NWN2 areas, which feels more constricted or require many more load screens. NWN2 makes for a more disconnected feel.

 

I'm rather puzzled by this because I feel quite the opposite. NWN2 can allow for absolutely enormous areas, at least compared to my experiences with the NWN toolset. But there are good module development reasons for keeping areas smaller. Perhaps it is the plethora of placeables used in NWN2 that make it feel smaller to you? Most of the stock NWN tiles feel a little barren to me.

[brothschild]

I've always thought NWN2 sucked. The gameplay, character customization restrictions, camera, multiplayer... and I wasn't able to figure out the toolset. The original NWN was the only game where I ever managed to learn the toolset.

 

2 hours was all I could take of that camera.

[Snowdog65]

The NWN2 OC certainly has many exterior areas which seem smaller than they should because of what you might call a look-but-don't-touch design choice.

 

Could be. Everything I have played in NWN2 felt like smaller restricted areas, with long load times between them.

[Tchos]

As I explained, the toolset supports gigantic areas.  Whatever ones you played do not represent limitations of the toolset as you suggested they do.

[Snowdog65]

As I explained, the toolset supports gigantic areas.  Whatever ones you played do not represent limitations of the toolset as you suggested they do.

 

Are there any modules with this big areas? I wonder if there are secondary reasons for them seemingly not showing up in game.

[Tchos]

Are there any modules with this big areas? I wonder if there are secondary reasons for them seemingly not showing up in game.

 

No doubt.  Even the OC had Mount Galardrym, which was 32x24.  I couldn't tell you where to look for more, since as I said, my impression is the opposite.

[werelynx]

Question: As a player I turned on NWN2 long time ago and camera control was abominable. I would like to have the bird-view in-game. Is it possible with patches/mods/hacks?

[Tchos]

There is no mode called "bird-view", but this is "exploration mode" at its furthest distance.  My game is running the final 1.23 patch, with no camera mods.

• Exploration 1 (interior)
• Exploration 2 (exterior)
• Exploration 3 (exterior)

[Frith5]

No doubt.  Even the OC had Mount Galardrym, which was 32x24.  I couldn't tell you where to look for more, since as I said, my impression is the opposite.

Am I wrong, or is that 32x24 area actually cut through with narrow walkable areas? The Mount Galardrym area feels like you're on roads through the area, and you cannot leave them. So (unless I'm mistaken, which is a distinct possibility), it might say 32x24 on the area size, but that doesn't equate to that much open, walkable area. Right?

[Tchos]

It is cut through with narrow walkable areas, yes.  It doesn't have to be.  The entire thing can be walkable.  It was a design choice for the area (for encounter placement, plot points, etc.), not a limitation for the engine, which is what I'm trying to express.  I took that area and made it all walkable.

[kamal_]

Am I wrong, or is that 32x24 area actually cut through with narrow walkable areas? The Mount Galardrym area feels like you're on roads through the area, and you cannot leave them. So (unless I'm mistaken, which is a distinct possibility), it might say 32x24 on the area size, but that doesn't equate to that much open, walkable area. Right?

You can have a 32x32 open area, I put one of that size (it was fairly flat farmland) in one of my campaigns. Performance at that size can be an issue, moreso for PWs than single player. That area size is large enough the builder needs to take care to give the player something of interest so they dont just get bored walking through it.

With the ability to scale things in nwn2, including the players, people have made areas that seem even larger than the 32x32 limit by scaling everything down, allowing for pseudo 64x64 or96x96 areas.

Nwn2 does have a hardcap on the number of objects that can be in an area. Its around 3250, and depending on how detailed you make things you can get to that limit in a smaller area, particularly if you use something like the building construction kit (bck) someone made, the bck is basically small sections of walls/floors/roofs that you can use to make custom buildings from.

[rjshae]

Are there any modules with this big areas? I wonder if there are secondary reasons for them seemingly not showing up in game.

 

It often comes down to the question of, "why do you need to build an area that big"? One reason is because you're building a sandbox area. But the standard modules are all plot-driven vehicles that permit the player a limited set of paths to follow, so they didn't need huge areas; just a few large areas.

 

Building a huge (32x32) area of decent quality is a pretty large commitment in time, energy, and creativity, so you need to have the right motivation to do it. But for that same commitment, you can build four unique 16x16 areas or 16 8x8 areas. It all depends on what is driving you to make the module in the first place.

 

A good use of such a large area would be for an overland map, which you might use if you were, say, rebooting some of the old GoldBox games. Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many modules that use an OM. Another use of a large area is for a sprawling interior dungeon--the wide space allows you to design it without much regard for the square borders.

[Tchos]

With the ability to scale things in nwn2, including the players, people have made areas that seem even larger than the 32x32 limit by scaling everything down, allowing for pseudo 64x64 or96x96 areas.

 

Such as the overland maps in SoZ which I wasn't going to mention, which are 24x20, but all objects and creatures are shrunk to 50%, and movement speed reduced to match, so it feels like 48x40, and both are entirely walkable without paths.

 

Nwn2 does have a hardcap on the number of objects that can be in an area. Its around 3250, and depending on how detailed you make things you can get to that limit in a smaller area, particularly if you use something like the building construction kit (bck) someone made, the bck is basically small sections of walls/floors/roofs that you can use to make custom buildings from.

 

Though possible, not too likely in my own experience, since even in my largest areas, full of BCK and my own custom placeable building parts, even in the one where I hand-placed individual paving stones to line the edges of a branching path and built a custom temple and had placeable walls and ceilings throughout, I didn't even get halfway to that limit.

 

A good use of such a large area would be for an overland map [...] Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many modules that use an OM.

 

There should be a list of ones that do.  5 or 6 come to mind immediately.

[Baaleos]

I played NWN2 when it first came out - and Loved it - up until a bug occurred when the lizard men where running behind your woman to set her barn on fire, and then the cutscene wouldnt end.
Making the game impossible to complete - making my save game corrupt.

I think they resolved it with patches - but still, it put me off the game.
The area load time for nwn2 is almost as long as the module load time of nwn1.
In short - while everything looks prettier in NWN2 - it feels like you get less bang for your buck with nwn2.

Just my opinion like.

[Tarot Redhand]

Talking of large NwN 2 areas... Currently the first 2 entries on the constantly evolving front page of the new vault are both 32 x 32 prefabs - Highlands and Eschebaumhügel (and the screenies for Highlands look rather tasty). 

 

TR

[henesua]

also speaking of huge areas, they don't work all that well in NWN1.

 

They take a very long time to load. Skyboxes can also clip them. And then there is the max distance that objects are rendered.

While I really like NWN1 I think it is fair to point out its limitations too.

[Frith5]

Interesting stuff.

 

I remember when NWN first came out, I had an outlandish module design idea to try to simulate a MUD. LOL. I'd build hundreds of small areas that'd quickly load after transitions. Why? Not really sure. I was just explorin'.