1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

I think it is better than in our world but not perfect either.

There are still situations that are oppressive in nature, like the City Elf story, the Quanri in general and even the Dwarven cultures. It is not seem as a crime or whatever but not ideal either depending of your situation and status. Also it is extremely heteronormative and that can be seen in all the cultures.

[In Exile]

Yeah, I think World of Thedas said homosexuality among the upper classes is frowned upon in Tevinter because of the whole "must continue the magical bloodline" thing, but it's actively encouraged among slaves. I don't know if this means the lady slaves bang the other lady slaves so the slave population doesn't explode... or if magisters are expected to "get it out of their system" with slaves and marry an opposite sex partner.

 

Well, you keep those bishonen elf slaves around for a reason, right? Apparently. Or something. 

[vertigomez]

The latter. "Do what you want with the slaves, so long as you pop out an heir at some point."

Poor Fenris.

[Cyrus Amell]

Starting with Origins the game treads into a number of explosive subject matters at a brisk pace:

 

- Women serving in the military alongside men (Fereldan Army at Ostagar, the Guard in Kirkwall, Templars etc.)

- Slavery is outlawed in a vast medieval land with little qualms despite the monumental efforts needed to eradicate it in the present in most of the world (mostly).

- The Dwarven Caste system in Orzimmar the evils of which are reminisscent of caste systems present even today (although India is getting much better)

- Drug addicted soldiers serving as the militant wing of the primary state religion (templars again)

- The imprisonment and forced joining of young mages into the Circles and their exclusionment from most rights, property or otherwise.

 

Homosexuality is simply one thing in the backdrop of a world so different from our own I am hesistant to consider even the supposed humans present as anything less than aliens.

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't understand why some people say that minority sexual orientions aren't an issue/stigmatized in Thedas. There's plenty in the games/books which contradicts this. Zevran is wary of potential homophobia, Gamlen says some homophobic things, whatever. Some nations (Tevinter) are more homophobic than others (Orlais). World of Thedas has some information on this, which I believe has already made its way into this very thread anyway.

 

Well it's not like it would be reasonable to present it as a total non issue. Most of that isn't specifically because people hate or dislikes gay people and I honestly think Gamlen was just trying to get under Hawke's skin, he says all kinds of offensive crap to him/her.

 

 

 

 

Why would you think the Dalish would be more open-minded than others? I don't have any information one way or another, but wouldn't procreation be of utmost importance to them? I mean they could still be fine with hot gay recreational sex, good for them. I just don't have any reason to assume they would be.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I think the Dalish are expected to have more Dalish children and preserve their culture, so they could have a problem with it I guess. 

[daveliam]

I really think that people have hit the nail on the head with the Zevran thing.  He was one of the very first m/m romance options ever in a Bioware game.  The only one that preceded him was Sky, whose m/m romance was so deeply hidden that you pretty much had to be trying to get to it to ever deal with the dialogue.  Zev was the first one to openly flirt with all male PCs and I think that the dialogue represents the devs trying to appease both gay males (and those playing as gay/bisexual Wardens) and also people who were not terribly comfortable with male characters hitting on their PC.  I mean, Zev is vastly more open about his interest in females and, when he does finally flirt with the male PC, it's couched through several "Can I flirt with you?"  "Does that make you uncomfortable?" dialogue options.  It was like a "WARNING: THIS CHARACTER IS INTERESTED IN A GAY ROMANCE.  PROCEED WITH CAUTION!" sticker. 

 

Unfortunately, now they have decided that sexuality isn't really a big deal in their world, but they've already set this odd precedence and Zev played a major role in that.  I think that if we take a holistic view on Thedas from all three games, the books, and all of the dev interviews, it's pretty clear that sexuality isn't a big deal, but that there are still a few places where non-hetero romances raise eyebrows still.  A few dismissive and rude comments here.  A few tentative, "Is it okay if I flirt with you"s there.  But in general, it seems like not a big deal.

[Mihura]

I really think that people have hit the nail on the head with the Zevran thing.  He was one of the very first m/m romance options ever in a Bioware game.  The only one that preceded him was Sky, whose m/m romance was so deeply hidden that you pretty much had to be trying to get to it to ever deal with the dialogue.  Zev was the first one to openly flirt with all male PCs and I think that the dialogue represents the devs trying to appease both gay males (and those playing as gay/bisexual Wardens) and also people who were not terribly comfortable with male characters hitting on their PC.  I mean, Zev is vastly more open about his interest in females and, when he does finally flirt with the male PC, it's couched through several "Can I flirt with you?"  "Does that make you uncomfortable?" dialogue options.  It was like a "WARNING: THIS CHARACTER IS INTERESTED IN A GAY ROMANCE.  PROCEED WITH CAUTION!" sticker. 

 

Unfortunately, now they have decided that sexuality isn't really a big deal in their world, but they've already set this odd precedence and Zev played a major role in that.  I think that if we take a holistic view on Thedas from all three games, the books, and all of the dev interviews, it's pretty clear that sexuality isn't a big deal, but that there are still a few places where non-hetero romances raise eyebrows still.  A few dismissive and rude comments here.  A few tentative, "Is it okay if I flirt with you"s there.  But in general, it seems like not a big deal.

 

Hahaha, I got a laugh out of that.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

In Thedas sex is as it should be, like in roman times. There was no lesbian, gay or straight - sex was simply sex (as it really is in its natural state).

Sexual differation is a result of religious-cultural values over time. If you use a male, female, a tree, a corpse, a rock or your own hand - sex is still just sex. 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I really think that people have hit the nail on the head with the Zevran thing.  He was one of the very first m/m romance options ever in a Bioware game.  The only one that preceded him was Sky, whose m/m romance was so deeply hidden that you pretty much had to be trying to get to it to ever deal with the dialogue.  Zev was the first one to openly flirt with all male PCs and I think that the dialogue represents the devs trying to appease both gay males (and those playing as gay/bisexual Wardens) and also people who were not terribly comfortable with male characters hitting on their PC.  I mean, Zev is vastly more open about his interest in females and, when he does finally flirt with the male PC, it's couched through several "Can I flirt with you?"  "Does that make you uncomfortable?" dialogue options.  It was like a "WARNING: THIS CHARACTER IS INTERESTED IN A GAY ROMANCE.  PROCEED WITH CAUTION!" sticker. 

 

Unfortunately, now they have decided that sexuality isn't really a big deal in their world, but they've already set this odd precedence and Zev played a major role in that.  I think that if we take a holistic view on Thedas from all three games, the books, and all of the dev interviews, it's pretty clear that sexuality isn't a big deal, but that there are still a few places where non-hetero romances raise eyebrows still.  A few dismissive and rude comments here.  A few tentative, "Is it okay if I flirt with you"s there.  But in general, it seems like not a big deal.

 

Well, to be fair, Fenris hits on a male hawke very subtly and is quick to change the subject if rejected. Only Anders openly hit on you regardless of gender.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

In Thedas sex is as it should be, like in roman times. There was no lesbian, gay or straight - sex was simply sex (as it really is in its natural state).

Sexual differation is a result of religious-cultural values over time. If you use a male, female, a tree, a corpse, a rock or your own hand - sex is still just sex. 

I'm pretty sure bestiality and necrophilia aren't accepted in Thedas. But between to consenting adults its seems generally accepted.

[vertigomez]

Well, to be fair, Fenris hits on a male hawke very subtly and is quick to change the subject if rejected. Only Anders openly hit on you regardless of gender.

I think Fenris's initial flirt is identical for men and women?

[katerinafm]

i don't think the people of thedas care, and you could have also mentioned that Duke Prosper from mark of the assassin, son was gay also (might have been cause i played as a male hawke, haven't played through mark of the assassin with a female hawke yet)

 

This. They generally do not care, but could potentially frown upon it because they can't have children. For example qunari most likely forbid it since romantic relationships are not really a thing in the Qun in the first place and sexual relationships happen for breeding.

 

That guy flirts with femhawke as well, but it was probably so that femHawkes could get the same gameplay option as well. The way Tallis even says something along the lines of 'maybe he doesn't like women' really gives the impression that he's most likely gay.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

 Also it is extremely heteronormative and that can be seen in all the cultures.

 

To be fair, considering most people in thedas are heterosexual, that makes sense.

[In Exile]

I really think that people have hit the nail on the head with the Zevran thing.  He was one of the very first m/m romance options ever in a Bioware game.  The only one that preceded him was Sky, whose m/m romance was so deeply hidden that you pretty much had to be trying to get to it to ever deal with the dialogue.  Zev was the first one to openly flirt with all male PCs and I think that the dialogue represents the devs trying to appease both gay males (and those playing as gay/bisexual Wardens) and also people who were not terribly comfortable with male characters hitting on their PC.  I mean, Zev is vastly more open about his interest in females and, when he does finally flirt with the male PC, it's couched through several "Can I flirt with you?"  "Does that make you uncomfortable?" dialogue options.  It was like a "WARNING: THIS CHARACTER IS INTERESTED IN A GAY ROMANCE.  PROCEED WITH CAUTION!" sticker. 

 

Unfortunately, now they have decided that sexuality isn't really a big deal in their world, but they've already set this odd precedence and Zev played a major role in that.  I think that if we take a holistic view on Thedas from all three games, the books, and all of the dev interviews, it's pretty clear that sexuality isn't a big deal, but that there are still a few places where non-hetero romances raise eyebrows still.  A few dismissive and rude comments here.  A few tentative, "Is it okay if I flirt with you"s there.  But in general, it seems like not a big deal.

 

There's also a basic problem that the devs have given themselves the goal of creating a world that's (essentially) free from anti-LGBT prejudice while themselves being part of a world that, well, isn't. And that leads to moments, writing, ideas, etc. that might seem innocuous but might not actually be harmless or neutral. This is particularly the case as you move away from the LG and towards the B and T. 

 

There are ideas and beliefs about what S/S relationships might or should be like that don't necessarily align with what they are in the real world. And all of this in the backdrop of a game that, in terms of player romance, isn't focusing that much attention on the issue of romances generally. 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I think Fenris's initial flirt is identical for men and women?

 

I believe it is but I'm not sure.

[In Exile]

I believe it is but I'm not sure.

 

Isn't his initial flirt (at least on the M/M side), "If I knew Anslom (or whatever the dwarf's name was) would find me so capable a man..." and then Hawke has the icon? That at least is gender based (although the only difference would be swapping man for woman). 

 

Also, man, Gideon Emry's voice. Gets me every time. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

In Thedas sex is as it should be, like in roman times. There was no lesbian, gay or straight - sex was simply sex (as it really is in its natural state).

Sexual differation is a result of religious-cultural values over time. If you use a male, female, a tree, a corpse, a rock or your own hand - sex is still just sex. 

 

Well, for men in Rome, sex was sex as long as you were clearly the active, dominant part and had sex with a partner that would be considered to be of lower status than you.

Edit: I've always thought of Tevinter as somewhat of an analogue to Rome. Perhaps this also goes for their sexual mores. I would certainly fit in with Fenris' story.

[In Exile]

Well, for men in Rome, sex was sex as long as you were clearly the active, dominant part and had sex with a partner that would be considered to be of lower status than you.

 

It's like the old saying - ladies, hide your husbands, Caesar is on the prowl. 

[wildelight]

In Thedas sex is as it should be, like in roman times. *snip*

 

No.  Contrary to what Wikipedia might tell you, the Romans were not the sexually accepting liberals television likes to claim.  While words for "homosexual" versus "heterosexual" may not have existed, a norm (blurry heterosexual, if that makes sense) definitely existed and occasionally was even legally enforced.

 

This is not to take a stance on Thedan views to sexuality.  But I've seen a lot of people idealizing the Romans lately and it's starting to tick off my degree. 

 

 

Well, for men in Rome, sex was sex as long as you were clearly the active, dominant part and had sex with a partner that would be considered to be of lower status than you.

Not exactly.  The Greeks can maybe be described this way, but again, its more complicated than that! 

[Reptillius]

The reality is that the arguments and debates over Homosexuality even in our world is actually a luxury primarily exploited by the so called "first world" countries. A good deal of our own world either doesn't care or is against it and that is that. No more thought into it.

 

Thedas really has so many other things to take the place of this little luxury such as issues between the races, issues between the countries, and just plain issues with mages and hating them in general that pretty much matches everything people in our own society put into the topic of homosexuality that they just really for the most part don't care. They just expect certain obligations to be met otherwise.

[vertigomez]

I believe it is but I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think it's the same. "If I had known Anso would find me a wo/man so capable..." and later, "you're a handsome man/beautiful woman" (?? according to YouTube. I've never romanced Fenris with a female Hawke).

So I think it's less that Fenris is uneasy about flirting with m!Hawke and more that Fenris is uneasy about flirting in general LOL.

edit: ninja'd

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Isn't his initial flirt (at least on the M/M side), "If I knew Anslom (or whatever the dwarf's name was) would find me so capable a man..." and then Hawke has the icon? That at least is gender based (although the only difference would be swapping man for woman). 

 

Also, man, Gideon Emry's voice. Gets me every time. 

 

Yes it is. Fenris isn't that open about flirting but its makes sense for his personality.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

 No.  Contrary to what Wikipedia might tell you, the Romans were not the sexually accepting liberals television likes to claim.  While words for "homosexual" versus "heterosexual" may not have existed, a norm (blurry heterosexual, if that makes sense) definitely existed and occasionally was even legally enforced.

 

This is not to take a stance on Thedan views to sexuality.  But I've seen a lot of people idealizing the Romans lately and it's starting to tick off my degree. 

 

True, theres evidence that accusations of homosexuality were used to slander rivals. Romans were a very conservative society.

[Mihura]

To be fair, considering most people in thedas are heterosexual, that makes sense.

 

Hum it is not really about most people being heterosexual, assuming someone preference as some kind of default is only one side of that.

I was talking more about for example your elven father knowing you are a lesbian and still force you to marry an elven man. Or not wanting to be like "Branka" because she was bisexual or the comments that Oghren has about doing adjustments to his performance in bed, if he knew.

[Reptillius]

The blurry line in Roman society was purely based on their ownership laws on who had the rights to own and subjugate who and who you couldn't. Those of lesser status or under certain age points could be fairly free game. those of equal or higher status were a different story. They were also in general biased towards men because it was a male driven society as well. Women actually in some ways had more freedoms over the matter as long as they didn't end up being "head of the household" in legal name so to speak.