1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Ailith Tycane]

For anyone whos curious, these are the remarks Gamlen makes.

 

 

[dirk5027]

I don't feel Gamlen is homophobic at all, he's just old and ornery, a bit hard and nasty to your face but he loves you and won't say it

Seems to me, nobody cares who you sleep with, they respect you as long as you respect them in return BUT that doesn't mean you shove the "gay" in their face either

 

Hawke   "that explains the sexy tortured look"

Anders  "I've never met a man to say it so openly"

 

MY all time fav line, well that and apostitutes, when hawke says that to Anders the look on Anders face is priceless

[SamaraDraven]

I have a hard time seeing it because Ashaad was a bloody qunari. As I said earlier, the qunari don't "do" romance.

"But, but ... Iron Bull!" Yeah, the broken qunari who was reassigned to the lands of the bas to get him the **** away from other followers of the Qun. What about him?

Even if the Qunari do in fact have romances, I still don't see how Saemus and Ashaad were romantic at all. Saemus spoke of Ashaad and the Qun as someone who was spiritually inspired by what he was learning. I don't get why Saemus's interest in the Qun (and Ashaad for being the one to provide those answers) has to be morphed into romance and sex. Like it's just soooo impossible that Saemus just truly wanted to learn about the Qun and had deep, yet platonic respect for Ashaad. Maybe it's a matter of perception, but I really don't understand the romantic/sexual interest in them. I just don't see it. All I see is a young man trying to find his own way in a world that would insist what his life should be like. Considering the strife around him, the stability of the Qun could be very attractive to Saemus. I honestly don't think it was more than that.

[Xilizhra]

I'd expect a certain level of homophobia from some groups, like the Dalish and perhaps elves in general since they're a dying breed, the Qunari if a male refuses to perform his baby-making duty, Tevinter if a mage refuses to make more mage babies and the dwarves who seem to have some trouble with baby-making in general. Oh and the human nobility if an heir is not produced.

 

But you'll notice that the concern with these groups are less based on things like morality and more tangible stuff like duty and survival. I imagine that homosexuality might be seen as slightly selfish rather than some kind of sin, the emphasis isn't on the same sex love but rather on the larger implications for society. Of course just because homophobia might not exist like it does here doesn't mean people like Gamlen won't either, you always get people like that. They shouldn't be used as a representative sample.

Given that Merrill does mention the social consequences of breaking reproductive obligations with male Hawke, but does not do so with female Hawke, I find it highly unlikely that the Dalish have a real issue with homosexuality; producing human children is presumably significantly worse than none at all.

 

 

Even if the Qunari do in fact have romances, I still don't see how Saemus and Ashaad were romantic at all. Saemus spoke of Ashaad and the Qun as someone who was spiritually inspired by what he was learning. I don't get why Saemus's interest in the Qun (and Ashaad for being the one to provide those answers) has to be morphed into romance and sex. Like it's just soooo impossible that Saemus just truly wanted to learn about the Qun and had deep, yet platonic respect for Ashaad. Maybe it's a matter of perception, but I really don't understand the romantic/sexual interest in them. I just don't see it. All I see is a young man trying to find his own way in a world that would insist what his life should be like. Considering the strife around him, the stability of the Qun could be very attractive to Saemus. I honestly don't think it was more than that.

It may be because Ginnis strongly implies it, without Saemus actually denying it.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

"So, you're into... elves, huh? Guess I don't have to ask which one of you's the girl."

He also makes the "girl" comment about Anders and will perv on f!Hawke x Isabela.

Gamlen's comments about femHawke & Isabela's relationship always creeped me out, he's essentially getting horny thinking about his niece

[Cat Fancy]

What do you people saying Gamlen isn't really homophobic think homophobia is, exactly? It isn't just virulent, anti-gay hatred. Yes, Gamlen is homophobic. His line about Fenris is sexist and homophobic. No, he doesn't want to exterminate gay people, or whatever.

 

Also, related, purple Hawke makes a joke about having a large member after ****** Fenris. So you cannot ~*roleplay*~ a Hawke who only bottoms or is poorly endowed. TMYK

[SamaraDraven]

It may be because Ginnis strongly implies it, without Saemus actually denying it.

That could explain the perception some have, I suppose but for me it isn't proof of anything. Ginnis was a spiteful, selfish mercenary who also threatened to remove his tongue. I wouldn't take her words and a lack of response to them as confirmation of anything. Sometimes the best response you can give a fool is silence. I would have suspected it more if Saemus had responded to her because that would indicate he felt he had to defend himself against such spite and baseless vitriol, that she had succeeded in shaming him about his association with Ashaad even if it truly was platonic.

[dirk5027]

What do you people saying Gamlen isn't really homophobic think homophobia is, exactly? It isn't just virulent, anti-gay hatred. Yes, Gamlen is homophobic. His line about Fenris is sexist and homophobic. No, he doesn't want to exterminate gay people, or whatever.

 

Also, related, purple Hawke makes a joke about having a large member after ****** Fenris. So you cannot ~*roleplay*~ a Hawke who only bottoms or is poorly endowed. TMYK

OH I never heard the line about Fenris, never completed the romance options, i'd just flirt a bit, Anders mage whining, Fenris magic whining, I would have latched onto Sebastian      This is much more exciting than the chantry, you bet it is buddy

[Lumix19]

That could explain the perception some have, I suppose but for me it isn't proof of anything. Ginnis was a spiteful, selfish mercenary who also threatened to remove his tongue. I wouldn't take her words and a lack of response to them as confirmation of anything. Sometimes the best response you can give a fool is silence. I would have suspected it more if Saemus had responded to her because that would indicate he felt he had to defend himself against such spite and baseless vitriol, that she had succeeded in shaming him about his association with Ashaad even if it truly was platonic.

It's just an interpretation, you don't have to subscribe to it.

[SamaraDraven]

It's just an interpretation, you don't have to subscribe to it.

I am aware of that. I just find it problematic to use the association between Seamus and Ashaad as a point to argue Qunari sexuality and part of the case in regards to Thedas's attitude toward homosexuality in general when it depends solely on a particular person's perception of very limited info.

[vertigomez]

I've also gotten the girl comment with my Femhawke who was romancing Fenris. A bug, probably, since it's not supposed to happen with a ladyHawke, but still pretty weird.

No, Gamlen, you don't have to ask which one of us is the girl. Maybe it's the one who is a girl.

That cracked me up! Definitely a bug. He's supposed to say, "So you're into elves, huh? It takes all kinds." to f!Hawke.

Wait what does Gamlen say about Isabela and FemHawke?

Here's a list of all Gamlen's LI comments. I have no idea if Merrill's supposed to have any, but yeah.

Somehow, his line about male Hawke x Isabela is even grosser than the femHawke one.

Wait a minute, has it been confirmed that Danarius abused Fenris sexually?

Word of Gaider.

ETA: Here's a link.

[carlo angelo]

I am aware of that. I just find it problematic to use the association between Seamus and Ashaad as a point to argue Qunari sexuality and part of the case in regards to Thedas's attitude toward homosexuality in general when it depends solely on a particular person's perception of very limited info.

I don't think anyone really takes Seamus' and Ashaad's relationship as romantic that seriously (I hope), considering that there's so little to nothing to indicate as such. I mean, Gaider himself said that as writers, they know what they see in that relationship, but it's purposely left to our speculation. As much as I preferred something concrete, well... I would like to think there was something more between those two, maybe if it's just on Seamus' part, but I'm not going to take it as fact. It's just wishful thinking on my part.

 

But anyway, I think when Dragon Age: Origins came out, it was around a time when queer representation was really starting to pick up steam, but it's still very tenuous in mainstream gaming. So, I think the writers didn't really cement an "official" position on what Thedas thinks of non-heterosexuality and same-sex relationships, other than that it's not "as big a deal" than it is in the real world. But because the response has been positive, generally, maybe around the time when Dragon Age 2 was in development, did they really delve a little deeper into the ramifications same sex attraction would have in that world. I don't really know, but this is just how I see it. But like what everyone else has said before me, I'll say that Thedas is like the real world in the sense that the attitudes towards same-sex relationships and non-heterosexuality vary depending on a certain culture, race, religion, and social standing.

[jlb524]

I have no idea if Merrill's supposed to have any, but yeah.

She doesn't have one...lucky for her.

[daveliam]

I don't feel Gamlen is homophobic at all, he's just old and ornery, a bit hard and nasty to your face but he loves you and won't say it

 

Calling one of the men in a gay relationship "the girl" is absolutely 100% without a doubt a homophobic statement. 

[Roses]

Personally I think in Thedas everyone bangs everyone and nobody cares. Yay for sexual freedom!
As far as we know they leave children and animals out of it, so I have no problem with the rest

[Reptillius]

See. I've spent plenty of time around others interested in their own sex even if I'm not.  maybe that colours how I view things but I have never seen the stuff between Ashaad and Saemus as anything that could really be considered same sex.   But those kinds of perceptions can really be more about the person seeing them that way than they are about the people involved and how they actually are.

 

I can also see Gamlen's remark about Fenris as more an attack against elves and an old jab about them at that. One that's dated back before DA.  That simply being that being such a lithe and pretty creature you have to be a girl.  Gamlen is the kind of man to make those remarks. His remarks about Isabella kind of back up this viewpoint for me.

 

 

As for what he says about Isabella.  Those are just disturbing on a couple of levels but more for the perv factor than anything at all against homosexuality.  He starts out clearly attacking Isabella and then turns it into a typical male fantasy that he really shouldn't have on many levels.  He makes a similar attack on her that gives it a jealous tone if your a male Hawke romancing her as well.

[KaiserShep]

It may be because Ginnis strongly implies it, without Saemus actually denying it.

 

Bah! What does Ginnis know? She's just a vashedan b****!

[CuriousArtemis]

Saemus and Ashaad were in love; BEGONE HATERS! *puts fingers in ears* Lalalalala 

[daveliam]

I do have to say that I never picked up on the Saemus and Ashaad thing until I read it here on the forums.  I recently went back and replayed DA 2 again and specifically looked for the clues about their relationship and still didn't really see it.  I see it as a privileged young human nobleman who see an exotic and "foreign" culture and becomes passionate about it.  The fact that he's been confirmed as gay, well that's a separate thing for me.  Perhaps he came to romanticize his relationship with Ashaad, but I never picked up anything outside of a friendship with perhaps a one-sided unrequited crush.  I still don't see them as being in a relationship.

[CuriousArtemis]

I do have to say that I never picked up on the Saemus and Ashaad thing until I read it here on the forums.  I recently went back and replayed DA 2 again and specifically looked for the clues about their relationship and still didn't really see it.  I see it as a privileged young human nobleman who see an exotic and "foreign" culture and becomes passionate about it.  The fact that he's been confirmed as gay, well that's a separate thing for me.  Perhaps he came to romanticize his relationship with Ashaad, but I never picked up anything outside of a friendship with perhaps a one-sided unrequited crush.  I still don't see them as being in a relationship.

 

You don't suffer from chronic "if it moves, ship it" syndrome as some of us do   

[Lumix19]

I do have to say that I never picked up on the Saemus and Ashaad thing until I read it here on the forums.  I recently went back and replayed DA 2 again and specifically looked for the clues about their relationship and still didn't really see it.  I see it as a privileged young human nobleman who see an exotic and "foreign" culture and becomes passionate about it.  The fact that he's been confirmed as gay, well that's a separate thing for me.  Perhaps he came to romanticize his relationship with Ashaad, but I never picked up anything outside of a friendship with perhaps a one-sided unrequited crush.  I still don't see them as being in a relationship.

I see the one-sided crush thing too.

[Mihura]

 

There is another one about Gamlen, overall I think he is a ****** to anyone but there is a part of it that is homophobic and sexist, yes.

[Adam Revlan]

What makes it so hard to know if the feelings were one sided is the fact that Ashaad is always dead by the time Hawke reaches Seamus, seeing things from his point of view would have put things into perspective.
I do not think we can really claim it was one sided, since we never met Ashaad and never knew how he felt.

[dirk5027]

Not every heterosexual, ESPECIALLY in the time period these games take place would know what to say or how to say it, if a man brought home another man

Not everyone here is 20 years old, been out for 40 years, my own father, when i brought home my first boyfriend ask me "which one is the boy and which one is the girl?"  why???  he was trying to break the ice and didn't know the proper thing to say or the way to say it

Everyone may interpret what's in these games anyway they wish but don't come on and emphatically state something is homophobic

i'm thankful for the love and acceptance i had, and my father grasping for what to say was rather sweet actually

[daveliam]

Not every heterosexual, ESPECIALLY in the time period these games take place would know what to say or how to say it, if a man brought home another man

Not everyone here is 20 years old, been out for 40 years, my own father, when i brought home my first boyfriend ask me "which one is the boy and which one is the girl?"  why???  he was trying to break the ice and didn't know the proper thing to say or the way to say it

Everyone may interpret what's in these games anyway they wish but don't come on and emphatically state something is homophobic

i'm thankful for the love and acceptance i had, and my father grasping for what to say was rather sweet actually

 

You seem to be confusing the idea of a homophobic statement and a homophobic person. 

 

A homophobic person could make a statement about homosexuality that is not homophobic, but that doesn't mean that it changes their inner thoughts.

 

A person who is not homophobic can make a homophobic statement, perhaps because they "don't know any better". 

 

The statement that one man is the man and the other is the woman is a homophobic statement.  Without a question.  Perhaps the person making the statement didn't intend to be homophobic, but that doesn't change the nature of the statement.