188 réponses à ce sujet

[Paridave]

It's less that Shepard died, and more that Shepard died in a completely unsatisfying, non-cathartic way for no reason other than the lead writer, lead designer, and project lead wanted Shepard dead.

 

Look at the emotional difference between how Mordin died and how Shepard died.

 

Mordin dies in the process of correcting or attempting to correct a wrong that he, *personally* committed and aided in against the Krogan people. This was a story of personal redemption.

 

Shepard dies in the process of... um.. doing what? What great wrong has Shepard committed against the entire galaxy that requires him or her to die?

 

Right, can't think of anything, can you?

 

That's because Mordin is a Tragic Hero and Shepard *isn't*. Emotionally, the ending of Mass Effect 3 is NOT cathartic as it *needed* to be, and that's why you felt hollow and depressed. The story did not end in catharsis, it ended in emptiness.

This is so true.  The game could have ended with an Armageddon moment but didn't.  Throughout most of these games players are encouraged to personalize their Shepard.  I remember going into the online store the first time I played it and was surprised to discover you could buy hoodies for him to wear on board the Normandy.  For a lot of players, Shepard became a surrogate version of themselves and those writing the ending ignored this.  For them there was no emotional connection, which is terrible writing.  The number one rule in writing is "know your audience," and those responsible for this ending didn't, which is why this backlash is still going on.  No one wants to end a game feeling totally lost and this is what happened to those who connected. 

[Xamalion]

I guess for the "how Shep died" topic we won't commit to each other. I see it different, because it wasn't all about just Shepard. And especially in the Synthesis ending there was this great aspect of sacrificing yourself for all the others. You could decide to do that. And I don't think you can say they forced everyone into being something new. If the only alternatives are total extinction or the same stuff happening over and over again, and by choosing that dooming billions of lifes, well then this is the solution.

 

I also think this is a very good way of reflecting our own society these days. There is an media shaped image of total freedom which is just not true and never will be. EVERYTHING you do has consequences. Some are minor and unnoticed, but great actions always have great consequences. And if they are good, well to tell that you have to ask the people that are touched by them. And as soon as there are more than 2 people in a room you have at least 3 opinions. And so it goes on.

 

I totally understand where you guys come from, I really do. And I would lie saying that I would not love to see Shep live his happy ending. But to say his dead made no sense is in my understanding wrong. Because he did so much good along the way. Really, walk in his shoes. Take his place. Do this now:

 

You are Shepard. You stand there, beaten, exhausted. An ancient AI tells you finally about the way the whole galaxy works. You can't think straight because of the exhaustion and blood loss. But you understand that you have 4 ways to solve all this. You were full paragon all your life. You did so much good. You unified two races. You healed an almost incurable plague. You encouraged everyone to not give up, all the time. You helped teammates in forming relationships and one can finally become a father because of you. You have a lover yourself. All you did in your whole life was healing, connecting, being a good person. Would you now let all of this go to hell?

 

I don't think so. And that's why for me the synthesis ending is the most perfect of them all. Because literally a part of Shep is in every living cell now across the galaxy. That is his legacy. They are not forced to be something they don't want to be. If you can even speak of forcing them into something, then they are forced into being alive. And that's what all the games were about. None of them looked unhappy. Because if you listen carefully, the AI told us that not only they would change, but also that everyone would finally understand what life is and what it can be. That is an evolution, not a burden. That is no violation in my eyes.

And once more: it did matter how you decided along the way. That reflected who you are as a person. Why must that make an impact in the end?

 

And the comparison to Mordins death: Yes, he did good in the end for something bad he did in his life. But once more: Shepard is like Frodo. He was touched by the signal on Eden Prime. That was like wearing the ring. He was chosen. If that was destiny, coincidence, something that was Neo like in the Matrix, who knows? But he decided to go on the journey, knowing that he could die around almost every corner.

 

I would really like to know how the ending should have been in your opinion. Because if it's just about him living, that's not enough for me to justify the whole end as crap.  

 

You wish for an Armageddon? Was that was Shepard was about, even if you play full renegade? I don't think so. In that case they should have made 2 endings, Synthesis and Armageddon. And if you were so evil along your way, than the Armageddon should do what an Armageddon does: wipe out everything including yourself and the galaxy.

 

Psychevore has this link in his profile to a review of the game (I guess most of you know it already, but if not I will post the link at the end), he also quotes the essence of that reviewer and I can't agree more:

 

We were all given a beautiful, articulate, poetic ending to a great story and for many of you, your choice was to spit in its f... face.

 

http://badassdigest....-mass-effect-3/

[Iakus]

I guess for the "how Shep died" topic we won't commit to each other. I see it different, because it wasn't all about just Shepard. And especially in the Synthesis ending there was this great aspect of sacrificing yourself for all the others. You could decide to do that. And I don't think you can say they forced everyone into being something new. If the only alternatives are total extinction or the same stuff happening over and over again, and by choosing that dooming billions of lifes, well then this is the solution.

 

I also think this is a very good way of reflecting our own society these days. There is an media shaped image of total freedom which is just not true and never will be. EVERYTHING you do has consequences. Some are minor and unnoticed, but great actions always have great consequences. And if they are good, well to tell that you have to ask the people that are touched by them. And as soon as there are more than 2 people in a room you have at least 3 opinions. And so it goes on.

 

I totally understand where you guys come from, I really do. And I would lie saying that I would not love to see Shep live his happy ending. But to say his dead made no sense is in my understanding wrong. Because he did so much good along the way. Really, walk in his shoes. Take his place. Do this now:

 

You are Shepard. You stand there, beaten, exhausted. An ancient AI tells you finally about the way the whole galaxy works. You can't think straight because of the exhaustion and blood loss. But you understand that you have 4 ways to solve all this. You were full paragon all your life. You did so much good. You unified two races. You healed an almost incurable plague. You encouraged everyone to not give up, all the time. You helped teammates in forming relationships and one can finally become a father because of you. You have a lover yourself. All you did in your whole life was healing, connecting, being a good person. Would you now let all of this go to hell?

 

I don't think so. And that's why for me the synthesis ending is the most perfect of them all. Because literally a part of Shep is in every living cell now across the galaxy. That is his legacy. They are not forced to be something they don't want to be. If you can even speak of forcing them into something, then they are forced into being alive. And that's what all the games were about. None of them looked unhappy. Because if you listen carefully, the AI told us that not only they would change, but also that everyone would finally understand what life is and what it can be. That is an evolution, not a burden. That is no violation in my eyes.

And once more: it did matter how you decided along the way. That reflected who you are as a person. Why must that make an impact in the end?

 

And the comparison to Mordins death: Yes, he did good in the end for something bad he did in his life. But once more: Shepard is like Frodo. He was touched by the signal on Eden Prime. That was like wearing the ring. He was chosen. If that was destiny, coincidence, something that was Neo like in the Matrix, who knows? But he decided to go on the journey, knowing that he could die around almost every corner.

 

I would really like to know how the ending should have been in your opinion. Because if it's just about him living, that's not enough for me to justify the whole end as crap.  

 

You wish for an Armageddon? Was that was Shepard was about, even if you play full renegade? I don't think so. In that case they should have made 2 endings, Synthesis and Armageddon. And if you were so evil along your way, than the Armageddon should do what an Armageddon does: wipe out everything including yourself and the galaxy.

 

Psychevore has this link in his profile to a review of the game (I guess most of you know it already, but if not I will post the link at the end), he also quotes the essence of that reviewer and I can't agree more:

 

We were all given a beautiful, articulate, poetic ending to a great story and for many of you, your choice was to spit in its f... face.

 

http://badassdigest....-mass-effect-3/

The whole "Shep died" thing is certainly not the whole problem for me.  The fact that it's guaranteed in all endings but one (and that is more easter egg than ending), however, is a major sticking point.  It certainly adds an air of hopelessness to my story that certainly shouldn't exist in a choice-based narrative.  I mean, so many Shepards making so many choices, all to end their personal journey the same way?  I'm not tlaking about the galaxy here, I'm talking about Shephard.  Sure death may be the logical outcome for some stories.  But all?  In some stories, Shepard's death doesn't make any sense.  It's...arbitrary.  A tacked-on consequence to make the ending more bittersweet.

 

Re:  Synthesis.  To my eyes, it does force people to be something they may not wish to be.  I don't know if you have played From Ashes, but if you have, imagine what Javik might think.  Also consider EDI's words about transhumanism, how it's still a contentious issue among humanity.  If anything, everyone looking happy added a chill to the ending.  If everyone is happy and peaceful, how do i know they are not being forced into it?  it reminded me of the soma drug in Brave New World (interestingly, "Brave New World" was apparantly a description in the ending notes for the game)

 

I find there is a world of difference between knowing that you can die around any corner, and knowing you will die at the end of the journey.

 

What I would have chosen?  An ending that gets rid of the Reapers and allows the galaxy to find its own path.  If, on their own, they chose Synthesis at their own pace and on their own terms, then fine.  If they start squabbling and warring with each other again, okay.  If organics and synthetics make peace or go back to fighting, then that was their choice.  But my Shepard fought to free the galaxy from the Reapers, who had been messing with the development of life in the Milky Way for a billion years or more.  Time to let the galaxy devlop along the paths we desire.  Even multiple paths, if differnt people want to diverge from the rest.

 

And in response to the article link provided by Psychevore, I'd recommend investigating the MEHEM ending mod (currently on it's fourth iteration) or JohnP's alternate version.  There's lots of videos of it on Youtube.  Reapers gone.  Shepard lives, no synthetics lost.  There's even an "Armageddon" ending if your EMS is too low.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Psychevore has this link in his profile to a review of the game (I guess most of you know it already, but if not I will post the link at the end), he also quotes the essence of that reviewer and I can't agree more:

 

We were all given a beautiful, articulate, poetic ending to a great story and for many of you, your choice was to spit in its f... face.

 

http://badassdigest....-mass-effect-3/

 

In response to the FILM CRIT HULK link article. People asking for logic and coherence in an ending aren't spitting in it's face. Also, the part about the end being poetic because of 'cycles' is pretty weak considering 'cycles' is such a broad and generic theme almost any story can be said be said to be an articulate statement about 'cycles'.

[StarcloudSWG]

Again, it's not about Shepard dying. It's about Shepard dying *in an emotionally unsatisfying way.* Many people feel the way I do even if they can't articulate exactly why. 

 

Imagine that the entire Catalyst scene never happened. Imagine that the game ended with Shepard and Anderson dead in the central control room as the Crucible fires.

 

Would that have been satisfying? ABSOLUTELY. It was the perfect moment to end the game. Shepard died to get the Crucible hooked up and ready to fire. No problem there.

 

But being convinced to commit suicide at the behest of an AI trapped in a poorly programmed logic loop? One that was clearly insane in ignoring 'reality' in favor of the theoretical model it had constructed in its own head? And one whose 'ideal' solution clearly pointed at plugging everything into the Reaper mind-control network? That line about 'organic energy' is meaningless nonsense. E=MC^2 and it doesn't matter what the M is composed of, whether it is carbon-based or silica or iron or whatnot.

 

If it had been just Shepard, if the Catalyst hadn't been a manipulative liar, I might have accepted the Synthesis ending. It does appeal in the promise of understanding and being a bridge between different ways of thinking. In many ways, it is what a Paragon Shepard strives for. It would take only one organic to be the bridge between organic and synthetic.

 

But everyone, everywhere, whether they wanted to become part of this mind-controlled transsapient experiment or not? No. Especially not when this entire last game was about getting different people with different goals and different perspectives to cooperate and work together to use their differences in order to survive and overcome an enemy intent on galactic genocide.

[dreamgazer]

Imagine that the entire Catalyst scene never happened. Imagine that the game ended with Shepard and Anderson dead in the central control room as the Crucible fires.

 

Would that have been satisfying? ABSOLUTELY. It was the perfect moment to end the game.

 

 

Nah. I'd rather have a tough sacrificial choice at the end of the game, just like ME1 and ME2, than that.  

[SilJeff]

You are forced into scenarios in every games' ending, so being forced to die except in one is nothing new to mass effect.

Want to have shepard sacrifice himself to stop saren? Too bad!

Shepard can only die in one scenario in Mass Effect 2 's ending. And shepard can only live in one scenario in 3.

They have been controlling the outcome of shepard since the first game

[SilJeff]

Nah. I'd rather have a tough sacrificial choice at the end of the game, just like ME1 and ME2, than that.

Exactly. Having the game stop before the story ends like was suggested above is what will truly lead to your choices not mattering and to me that is a lot more important.

[Iakus]

You are forced into scenarios in every games' ending, so being forced to die except in one is nothing new to mass effect.

Want to have shepard sacrifice himself to stop saren? Too bad!

Shepard can only die in one scenario in Mass Effect 2 's ending. And shepard can only live in one scenario in 3.

They have been controlling the outcome of shepard since the first game

 

Being forced to die in a choice based narrative  is rather peculiar.  And obviously less than universally popular, to put it mildly.

 

I'd also avoid conmparing ME1 and ME2's endings, to ME3's given that ME1 and ME2 were not the end of the story.  Better to compare to DAO and DA2, with a different protagonist in each game.  And hey look, the Warden can die!

 

If the Mass Effect games had different protagonists as well, you can bet I'd be okay with the possibility of dying being a possible (but not the only)  outcome to the previous games

[Ctoagu]

You are forced into scenarios in every games' ending, so being forced to die except in one is nothing new to mass effect.

Want to have shepard sacrifice himself to stop saren? Too bad!

Shepard can only die in one scenario in Mass Effect 2 's ending. And shepard can only live in one scenario in 3.

They have been controlling the outcome of shepard since the first game

 

You know, my problem wasn't with the fact that I was forced to make an end-game decision that would affect the future of the entire galaxy. My problem was with the fact that the whole final segment was done in such a way that disconnected it from the entire series. Why were we taken to this place we'd never seen before and talked down to by this plot-device of a character that had absolutely no presence in the story beforehand?

 

The whole final segment could've easily just taken Shepard to the Citadel's Council Chamber / Master Control Unit from the first game, bringing the trilogy full-circle. We could've had our final standoff against the Illusive Man there, and learned from him that the Crucible wasn't just capable of destroying Reapers, but of truly controlling them. We could've watched our battered and dying Shepard crawling to his/her feet at the MCU, and learning that s/he had to make a choice between three options that would be shaped would be shaped by the EMS: destroy the Reapers, but risk killing all synthetics and blowing up the Citadel if your assets aren't high enough? Try to control the Reapers and make them flee the galaxy forever, but risk total failure or a partial success that merely turns the genocidal destroyers into tyrannical slavers instead? A mysterious third option that may not even be present, which promises nothing more than to pave the way for a galactic-scale synthesis of machine and flesh? Or perhaps the choice to do nothing, and Shepard falls unconscious from his/her wounds as the combined might of the galaxy wages its biggest stand against the Reapers; follow up with an ending scene which can either show that the current cycle survived the Reaper war (high EMS) or the standard refuse ending in which Liara's message passes on the knowledge of the Reapers and Crucible to the next cycle (low EMS).

 

Tell me, would my version of the ending written above have been more satisfying than what Walters and Hudson gave us? I like to think so, because I left Shepard's decision to be his/her own, rather than something imposed by a literal Deus Ex Machina. It doesn't take us to this odd dreamlike place we've never seen, but to the last segment of the first game, the chamber in which a council comes together to make decisions on behalf of galactic civilization - and where Shepard returns to make such a decision for a second time as the apocalypse draws near.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You are forced into scenarios in every games' ending, so being forced to die except in one is nothing new to mass effect.

Want to have shepard sacrifice himself to stop saren? Too bad!

Shepard can only die in one scenario in Mass Effect 2 's ending. And shepard can only live in one scenario in 3.

They have been controlling the outcome of shepard since the first game

 

It's why if the series really says anything it's something to do with the illusion of choice, fatalism, or something like that and their conflict (or violent collision) with a narrative that is ostensibly about self determination.

[dreamgazer]

It's why if the series really says anything it's something to do with the illusion of choice, fatalism, or something like that and their conflict (or violent collision) with a narrative that is ostensibly about self determination.

 

Just look at ME1. No matter the chosen background, attitude, or the order you decide to do the game's missions, Commander Shepard of the Alliance Navy and newly-recruited Spectre is still forced into a Sophie's Choice situation on Virmire and required to sacrifice roughly ten-thousand lives to destroy one Reaper, among other things.  Down to something as small as whether it's Kaidan or Ashley that gets tossed away from the beacon on Eden Prime, when you couldn't just leave them alone in a moment of risk management and allow them to absorb the energy. 

 

Rails.  You've been on them from the beginning. It's your tweaked version of BioWare's story and protagonist. 

[Iakus]

Just look at ME1. No matter the chosen background, attitude, or the order you decide to do the game's missions, Commander Shepard of the Alliance Navy and newly-recruited Spectre is still forced into a Sophie's Choice situation on Virmire and required to sacrifice roughly ten-thousand lives to destroy one Reaper, among other things.  Down to something as small as whether it's Kaidan or Ashley that gets tossed away from the beacon on Eden Prime, when you couldn't just leave them alone in a moment of risk management and allow them to absorb the energy. 

 

Rails.  You've been on them from the beginning. It's your tweaked version of BioWare's story and protagonist. 

 

The desire to be allowed to "tweak" the protagonist's ultimate fate beyond a single easter egg is not, imo,  an unreasonable desire.

 

Especially in a story about self-determination

[dreamgazer]

The desire to be allowed to "tweak" the protagonist's ultimate fate beyond a single easter egg is not, imo,  an unreasonable desire.

 

Especially in a story about self-determination

 

I think you're putting too much stock in this being "a story about self-determination", because it's also a story about sacrifice. Always has been. 

 

[andapanda]

I didn't mind the ending in ME3. Shepard went out with a bang regardless of how it ended and saved the galaxy. What I was disappointed with and something that I lacked true closure about was what happened after. I wanted to see his LI (mine was Miranda) and what she was thinking/feeling. Kind of an epilogue of the epilogue. It upsets me that I didn't get to see this and makes me think that Shepard didn't get the warrant he deserved for what he did. Instead it shows the ship crashed and they were rebuilding it. I was also disappointed that Miranda got shelved in ME3. She should have stayed a squad mate and had more romance scenes!

I am hoping in the next game they can give a brief prologue into what happened afterwards, it doesn't have to be long or involve the next game in anyway, just some damn closure about it. Show me what happens to the characters!

I have never felt so strongly about a game before. One of my mates a few weeks back said play Mass Effect. I always knew about the game but couldn't be bothered getting into the story line. Then when I started the game, Jesus Christ it was mind blowing. I was incredibly attached and couldn't put it down until I completed it! I still think about it to this very day, about how Shepard died (or survived), and even thinking of my own head canon (does he go back to Miranda if he lives?). It was incredibly sad, the music makes it even more emotional.

 

Please Bioware, give me closure for this game, I don't care if it is only for 30 seconds before the next game begins, or DLC, or a slideshow, just give me closure!!

[SilJeff]

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=6nINYfgEG2w

[Iakus]

I didn't mind the ending in ME3. Shepard went out with a bang regardless of how it ended and saved the galaxy. What I was disappointed with and something that I lacked true closure about was what happened after. I wanted to see his LI (mine was Miranda) and what she was thinking/feeling. Kind of an epilogue of the epilogue. It upsets me that I didn't get to see this and makes me think that Shepard didn't get the warrant he deserved for what he did. Instead it shows the ship crashed and they were rebuilding it. I was also disappointed that Miranda got shelved in ME3. She should have stayed a squad mate and had more romance scenes!
 

Bolded part right there is about half the problem with the ending.

 

Not everyone wanted that, but were given little choice in the matter.

[themikefest]

I didn't mind the ending in ME3. Shepard went out with a bang regardless of how it ended and saved the galaxy. What I was disappointed with and something that I lacked true closure about was what happened after. I wanted to see his LI (mine was Miranda) and what she was thinking/feeling. Kind of an epilogue of the epilogue. It upsets me that I didn't get to see this and makes me think that Shepard didn't get the warrant he deserved for what he did. Instead it shows the ship crashed and they were rebuilding it. I was also disappointed that Miranda got shelved in ME3. She should have stayed a squad mate and had more romance scenes!


 

Please Bioware, give me closure for this game, I don't care if it is only for 30 seconds before the next game begins, or DLC, or a slideshow, just give me closure!!

When I romanced her back in February, it felt out of place that another character was holding Shepards nameplate instead of Miranda. Too bad she wasn't a squadmate in ME3

 

 

For closure, I posted this as an idea in another thread.  The endings that have Shepard dead, have a slide showing a statue of Shepard in his/her armor with LI standing beside it or the staue by itself if no LI or have a grave with LI standing over it or just show the grave with no LI, and with the breath scene, have a slide with Shepard standing next to his/her LI with their backs to the screen looking at the sunsetting in a field. If ems is below 1750, have it play out the same as what is seen in the game and if the player chooses the refuse ending, have it play out the same as seen in the game

[andapanda]

As I didn't mind how it ended, it wasn't a problem for me. I do understand however, that people can be annoyed at how they were given no choice in whether Shepard lived or died.



themikefest - I was really annoyed that Shepard didn't get to see Miranda much in ME3 and the ending significantly reflected a lack of seeing his LI. I don't understand why they wouldn't put her on the ship during the ceremony. Not sure if you have seen it, but the MEHEM ending on youtube with a Miranda romance was good. its just not real canon though, which is why I cant take it seriously.

 

Quoting doesn't seem to be working on my computer :/

[SilJeff]

Bolded part right there is about half the problem with the ending.

 

Not everyone wanted that, but were given little choice in the matter.

 

And things like that existed since the 1st game. Still, you have more choice in the EC Ending than in most situations, including the other endings in the series

[Paridave]

When I talk to people about ME3 I usually get 2 responses, either they've played the game and think it has a terrible ending, or they don't really want to play the game because it has a terrible ending, and these are people who I consider casual gamers, buying and playing one or two games a year.  Do you think they're going to buy the next game?  For every one comment seen in these Forums there are thousands who say nothing.  There is no way of accounting for every one who felt burned by the ME3 ending, but many feel that number may be as high as 65% of the loyal fan base.  I can not even begin to imagine the marketing nightmare Bioware will face when they start marketing the next game.  I guess that's the price you pay for a bad ending. 

[dreamgazer]

Do you think they're going to buy the next game?

 

Yup. 

[Iakus]

And things like that existed since the 1st game. Still, you have more choice in the EC Ending than in most situations, including the other endings in the series

Shepard doesn't die no matter what you do in the first two games.

 

Well, the stat of the second game, yeah, but that's a different kind of wtf 

[Iakus]

When I talk to people about ME3 I usually get 2 responses, either they've played the game and think it has a terrible ending, or they don't really want to play the game because it has a terrible ending, and these are people who I consider casual gamers, buying and playing one or two games a year.  Do you think they're going to buy the next game?  For every one comment seen in these Forums there are thousands who say nothing.  There is no way of accounting for every one who felt burned by the ME3 ending, but many feel that number may be as high as 65% of the loyal fan base.  I can not even begin to imagine the marketing nightmare Bioware will face when they start marketing the next game.  I guess that's the price you pay for a bad ending. 

 

I do not envy the development team who gets to clean up this mess, that's for sure.