188 réponses à ce sujet

[Xamalion]

I did play Leviathan, but instead of the overall ending, this story has some major plotholes for me. OK, they created the AI and it took its task a bit to serious and started to turn itself against his creators. But as we encountered it, we couldn't argue with it about all the good reasons for breaking the cycle (and by the way getting the end we hoped for). For me that means it didn't evolve into an independent being, and by that being able to think independent. Ultimately that means it is still following its programming, there are 3 (or 4 by doing nothing) ways. So someone must have programmed these options. And this means someone had a least thought about what could happen someday. The Leviathans presumably didn't knew a thing about it. Well at least they didn't mention something about it. And that's where I see a major incohorence in the whole story. In almost every other story about an AI going rampage (Skynet, HAL9000 e.g.) the AI becomes self aware and is able to think for itself and doesn't follow its programming or expands and rewrite it autonomous. This didn't happen here.

[Farangbaa]

What? No.

 

It has only one directive: preserve all life at any cost. The options you get at the end (except refuse) are just solutions to that problem, albeit one of them a very crappy one (destroy). I don't see why they would have to be programmed into the Catalyst for it to recognize them as solutions. The solutions are all it has been looking for since the moment it exists. The search for these solution is the entire reason it exists at all.

 

And it didn't go on a rampage because it's doing exactly what it is programmed to do. (though it's solution could be seen as a rampage against life )

[Iakus]

I did play Leviathan, but instead of the overall ending, this story has some major plotholes for me. OK, they created the AI and it took its task a bit to serious and started to turn itself against his creators. But as we encountered it, we couldn't argue with it about all the good reasons for breaking the cycle (and by the way getting the end we hoped for). For me that means it didn't evolve into an independent being, and by that being able to think independent. Ultimately that means it is still following its programming, there are 3 (or 4 by doing nothing) ways. So someone must have programmed these options. And this means someone had a least thought about what could happen someday. The Leviathans presumably didn't knew a thing about it. Well at least they didn't mention something about it. And that's where I see a major incohorence in the whole story. In almost every other story about an AI going rampage (Skynet, HAL9000 e.g.) the AI becomes self aware and is able to think for itself and doesn't follow its programming or expands and rewrite it autonomous. This didn't happen here.

Leviathan was Bioware's way of retroactively foreshadowing the ending, by giving us more information about how the cycles started.  The plot holes were already there, the DLC just highlighted them.  And yes, it acts more like  a VI than an AI if you ask me.

 

In addition, it also makes clear that the Crucible was designed by neither the Leviathans nor the Reapers, but by someone else.  How it can interface with the Catalyst or provide those options is a question we will probably never have answered.

[Khemikael]

You evidently didn't read the PS.

 

p.s. By "Fun" in this post I meant actually "funny" and "grin provoking" fun, not fun as having a good time in general.

I think this article is more than just a semantic disagreement, and you're kind of missing the point (although maybe it could have been better expressed.) It seems today like there's pressure on developers to make a game that is as "grin developing" as possible... as if our goal should be to make a game where every moment makes you happy. So I think it's worth arguing against that idea

 

[...]

 

If you are going to change genres you should alert your audience.  So, lets look at ME3.  Sci-fi, and you get to choose how you die, except for a token breath scene and some cheese "Did all of that really happen?"  That's not fun for me, because they changed the music, threw all of the genre out of the window.  All they had to do was tell us there is no happy ending, we changed the genre - buy at your own risk.  

 

[...]

I agree with most of your post exept this part. Maybe Bioware should have warned us about the ending but I don’t think it was needed. Look at the Mass Effect Universe and how cute it is. Prisons run by mercs, political schemings, treasons, corruption, indoctrination, slavery, unethical experiments, species lock down on their own planet or expeled from their homeworld, sterilization of a whole species, several genocides, Conrad Verner. This is a damn dark place,imho thiking of a classic happy ending in this type of world is quite naive.

 

Now, the reaction regarding the ending makes me think of Plato’s cave somehow. We, gamers, have been stuck inside this cave, looking at the same stories, the same endings for decades. Bioware tried to bring us in full sunlight, to show us something different and new. A majority of players were not ready, their eyes burned off with the sun and they moved back to the cave. Others stayed outside even if it was disturbing at first, eventually their eyes became acclimated to the light and they were able to see the world. /my2greekcents

The endings are not perfect, but at least Bioware tried something, I don't think we should blame them for that.

[AlanC9]

.
In addition, it also makes clear that the Crucible was designed by neither the Leviathans nor the Reapers, but by someone else.  How it can interface with the Catalyst or provide those options is a question we will probably never have answered.

There was a theory kicking around that this was actually a lie -- something about the leviathan having a "tell" when the Crucible comes up, which is supposed to mean that they did design it, IIRC. I have no idea if the theory is plausible.

[Xamalion]

Ok, but then I don't get why you have to wait thousands of years to get in contact with the AI. It knew already what the Crucible was able to do. It didn't need countless cycles to discover these 3 solutions to that simple problem. Everyone of us would figure them out quite quickly if we spend some time thinking about it. Also this would mean the AI itself must have created the crucible because I see no other way how the interaction would have taken place otherwise. Or do you think the AI would have gone on forever? That would be against any directive, because everyone would try a permanent solution to a problem instead of repeating a cycle that is never really complete. Seriously, why didn't the AI it let the Reapers built the Crucible and start the Synthesis by itself? The more I think about it, the less sense the whole scenario makes. :/

[dreamgazer]

There was a theory kicking around that this was actually a lie -- something about the leviathan having a "tell" when the Crucible comes up, which is supposed to mean that they did design it, IIRC. I have no idea if the theory is plausible.

 

Yeah, the camera deliberately cuts to a close-up of its facial expression after being probed about the Crucible. 

 

http://youtu.be/Pd9h0vUwza0?t=6m23s

[Iakus]

Ok, but then I don't get why you have to wait thousands of years to get in contact with the AI. It knew already what the Crucible was able to do. It didn't need countless cycles to discover these 3 solutions to that simple problem. Everyone of us would figure them out quite quickly if we spend some time thinking about it. Also this would mean the AI itself must have created the crucible because I see no other way how the interaction would have taken place otherwise. Or do you think the AI would have gone on forever? That would be against any directive, because everyone would try a permanent solution to a problem instead of repeating a cycle that is never really complete. Seriously, why didn't the AI it let the Reapers built the Crucible and start the Synthesis by itself? The more I think about it, the less sense the whole scenario makes. :/

 

Not only that, but it actively destroyed every single attempt to build the Crucible. And destroyed any knowledge of it it could find.  It was surprised that copies of the blueprints survived to this cycle.

 

Heck it's got Reapers shooting at the Crucible even as it's talking to Shepard trying to get him/her to choose.

[ImaginaryMatter]

What? No.

 

It has only one directive: preserve all life at any cost. The options you get at the end (except refuse) are just solutions to that problem, albeit one of them a very crappy one (destroy). I don't see why they would have to be programmed into the Catalyst for it to recognize them as solutions. The solutions are all it has been looking for since the moment it exists. The search for these solution is the entire reason it exists at all.

 

And it didn't go on a rampage because it's doing exactly what it is programmed to do. (though it's solution could be seen as a rampage against life )

 

Destroy and possibly Control aren't solutions to the Catalyst's problem at all, they're just options from the Crucible. I'm still not clear why it offered them as choices unless the Crucible has some sort of override for the Catalyst or it no longer complies with its programming.

[Paridave]

Not only that, but it actively destroyed every single attempt to build the Crucible. And destroyed any knowledge of it it could find.  It was surprised that copies of the blueprints survived to this cycle.

 

Heck it's got Reapers shooting at the Crucible even as it's talking to Shepard trying to get him/her to choose.

This is true.. and funny.  For 3 games you have been climbing this mountain of tension and upon reaching the peak, instead of finding this radiant gem crowning the trilogy, you find something soft and gooey that people keep spitting out of their mouths, which, I suspect, was never Bioware's intention.

[Cheviot]

Destroy and possibly Control aren't solutions to the Catalyst's problem at all, they're just options from the Crucible. I'm still not clear why it offered them as choices unless the Crucible has some sort of override for the Catalyst or it no longer complies with its programming.

They are solutions the Catalyst offers to Shepard because Shepard's presence there has shown that the current answer to the Catalyst's problem no longer works. Organic life has shown it can either work with or subdue the Synthetic (depending on how you dealth with the Geth) while keeping it's own house in order. Working on the principle that this can happen again should the Organic-Synthetic conflict recur, the Catalyst gives Shepard the power to decide how the galaxy should be run. 
The Catalyst is ceding the throne to Shepard (Control), though Shepard can choose to get rid of the throne entirely (Destroy) or unite the warring factions (Synthesis)

[ZeroPhoenix94]

Post-game depression is best cured with subsequent playthroughs.

[ImaginaryMatter]

They are solutions the Catalyst offers to Shepard because Shepard's presence there has shown that the current answer to the Catalyst's problem no longer works. Organic life has shown it can either work with or subdue the Synthetic (depending on how you dealth with the Geth) while keeping it's own house in order. Working on the principle that this can happen again should the Organic-Synthetic conflict recur, the Catalyst gives Shepard the power to decide how the galaxy should be run. 
The Catalyst is ceding the throne to Shepard (Control), though Shepard can choose to get rid of the throne entirely (Destroy) or unite the warring factions (Synthesis)

 

I don't think that's the case at all. Granted, this is going to be tough to argue because of all the plot holes surrounding the Crucible/Priority: Earth, but getting the Crucible to the Citadel doesn't seem to disprove the fundamentals of the Cycle plan, merely the Reapers execution of it (if the Reapers turned off the beam, for example, it would be good game for the organics and the cycles could have continued as normal). Plus, the current cycle didn't seem as effective at dealing with AIs as the Prothean cycle or even the Leviathan one (also, peace at Rannoch and the brief time after it seem too brief a set of data points to draw anything conclusive). And even if they did it seems like the Catalyst would have allowed the organics to make a decision much earlier. Furthermore, could the Catalyst have discounted this as a sign of natural growth given the massive amount of Reaper interference in this cycle's organic/AI relationships?

[Iakus]

Post-game depression is best cured with subsequent playthroughs.

I couldn't even get through a second game.  Ended up uninstalling for several months.

 

Digging out my old Jade Empire discs helped, though.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Digging out my old Jade Empire discs helped, though.

 

I think that might be my favorite BioWare game... or at least the one I complain the least about.

 

I wish the later BioWare games had that art team.

[Tonymac]

I couldn't even get through a second game.  Ended up uninstalling for several months.

 

Digging out my old Jade Empire discs helped, though.

 

MEHEM helped a lot, but the only thing that worked for me was not to play the game at all - and I used to play the crap out of the MP.  Sometimes just an ME1 run helped.

[Paridave]

Post-game depression is best cured with subsequent playthroughs.

I actually played through Crysis 1, 2, &3, the change was very cathartic, and I stopped thinking about all of the holes in the ME story line (and there are soooo many).

[FreshRevenge]

I haven't played Mass Effect anything for almost a year. To me the ending of Mass Effect 3 killed it. It is really hard to play through 3 games and reach such a horrible ending. I know they tried to appease fans by fixing some issues but it still feels like a slap and sucker punch to my stomach. It is pretty terrible how 10 minutes can flush all those hours of gameplay down the toilet.

[dreamgazer]

Post-game depression is best cured with subsequent playthroughs.

Wouldn't say "depression", really, but yeah. Four trilogy runs under my belt since ME3's release, and I'm looking forward to a fifth in the near future after chatting about the series recently. Nothing flushed down the toilet here, even with a flawed ending (that could have easily been, and almost was, a LOT worse).

[Linkenski]

Jeez, I must be going through it for the sixth time or something now. I can't believe it, although the 4th and 5th playthroughs were without the DLCs and I didn't feel invested. Ended up with like 9 hours of ME1, 19 hours in ME2 and 23 in ME3 (so it doesn't count lol). I don't feel cool with myself replaying a game so much, but still with each playthrough I discover something new.

 

It's been a year since last time I played the trilogy. Me and a friend is going through it again and I'm in the middle of 3. I'm still getting the feels at all the appropriate moments and strangely I don't hate the game as much as I did the first and second time. Probably because I haven't reached the endgame parts where it starts to get pretty meh, but whatever.

[Voragoras]

I miss the characters, most of all. Only a few fanfics have their characterisation down to a T.

[Linkenski]

Yeah I miss the characters too, but I'm glad it's coming to an end now that there aren't any more comics contributed to ME Trilogy left either.

 

If there is one thing that makes me very excited for ME4, it is getting to know a completely new cast of characters, and hopefully we'll get our usual Mass Effect plot full of heroics, intrugue and also mystery along with it. I kinda hope that the writing team is mostly new, but that Bioware have someone who has a tight grip on the new writers in regards to lore.

 

The Citadel DLC softened the blow of the endings leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth, so I'll take that as a sign that if ME4 ends up being really good, I can rest easy. If ME3 truly was the end of the franchise I would be a little disappointed so I'm glad we're getting another opportunity to explore the universe.

[Voragoras]

Yeah I miss the characters too, but I'm glad it's coming to an end now that there aren't any more comics contributed to ME Trilogy left either.

 

If there is one thing that makes me very excited for ME4, it is getting to know a completely new cast of characters, and hopefully we'll get our usual Mass Effect plot full of heroics, intrugue and also mystery along with it. I kinda hope that the writing team is mostly new, but that Bioware have someone who has a tight grip on the new writers in regards to lore.

 

The Citadel DLC softened the blow of the endings leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth, so I'll take that as a sign that if ME4 ends up being really good, I can rest easy. If ME3 truly was the end of the franchise I would be a little disappointed so I'm glad we're getting another opportunity to explore the universe.

 

The ending was sub par emotionally, for me, but when I played the Citadel DLC, it was the opposite. I felt like that was my goodbye to the characters more than the ending ever could be, because it was written like all of the characters knew they wouldn't be coming back, and it was their last hurrah before going out with a bang. It was just as silly as it expected and needed it to be, and all the more emotional for it.

 

Legit nearly teared up on Mordin's little datapad thing, especially on his science songs and Amazing Grace.

 

You're absolutely right, though. As much as I loved the Trilogy's characters, I loved the closure of getting to say goodbye to them, as well. I look forward to seeing what ME4 has to offer in terms of new squaddies.

[goishen]

It does get better over time, but that's just because they haven't released any new info about ME:N.  I expect that they will around Christmas (although I'm not an insider and have no knowledge) and I'll be right back there playing my Shepard through his 874 billionth playthrough.  Immersed and all.  Black Shepard (where Shepard is completely blacked out, not African American Shepard) and all.  I hear that's got something to do with AMD processors, but...  

 

Yah man.   I'm right there with you.

[Farangbaa]

The ending was sub par emotionally, for me, but when I played the Citadel DLC, it was the opposite. I felt like that was my goodbye to the characters more than the ending ever could be, because it was written like all of the characters knew they wouldn't be coming back, and it was their last hurrah before going out with a bang. It was just as silly as it expected and needed it to be, and all the more emotional for it.

 

Legit nearly teared up on Mordin's little datapad thing, especially on his science songs and Amazing Grace.

 

You're absolutely right, though. As much as I loved the Trilogy's characters, I loved the closure of getting to say goodbye to them, as well. I look forward to seeing what ME4 has to offer in terms of new squaddies.

 

Even without Citadel DLC you spend like an hour saying goodbye to people on Earth.