114 réponses à ce sujet

[Allison_Lightning]

I wouldn't say defending their actions, more that the criticism is overdone and largely tied up with the dislike of liara as a character.

For reference, compare criticism of the inactivity of the salarians who by and large sit back and watch the galaxy burn with that of the asari.

 

Mine isn't and I would cover for the asari in a post war galaxy about their beacon. The asari selectively told people and I don't think they told the councillor at all- and no one wants an entire race punished for the actions of a few. They pitched in, most of the salarians followed the Dalatrass and ignored the fact that they were spiting the galaxy by taking punitive action against curing the genophage. 

 

I felt for Thessia because I had the faith and confidence of the Council, which I had asked for repeatedly. I think Kai Leng is stupid and rigged but do I feel badly about being powerless in that situation. Shepard lamented refusing to accept defeat and being forced to acknowledge that she was wrong and Thessia couldn't have been saved.   

[ImaginaryMatter]

Exactly. Enjoy the characters and the environments. Shoot the bad guys. Bang. Bang. The plot and whether or not anything about it makes any sense is secondary. if the environments are decent, and there's good interaction with the characters, the characters are well developed, a lot of inadequacies in the story can be forgiven.

 

Mass Effect - a great universe with a story built on a bad premise.

 

I wouldn't say the Reaper story was one with a bad premise. It was a story marred by not thinking ahead and not paying attention to the story segments that came before.

[DeinonSlayer]

The mission on Thessia was crap, but the aftermath was really well done. For me, it was more emotionally charged than any other part of the game.
 
And I've never hated a people because of the actions of its government, with maybe the quarians as the only exception because they knew exactly what their government was up to.

Livi14. Knew I forgot someone in my list; I've gone and corrected that.

Also, Julia, the yellow text in your post left my eyes bleeding. Fair warning next time.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Livi14. Knew I forgot someone in my list; I've gone and corrected that.

Also, Julia, the yellow text in your post left my eyes bleeding. Fair warning next time.

 

Sorry about the yellow text... but it was to make a point.

 

I'm through defending any race. The plot is ridiculous. Mass Effect is an Arnold movie in three boxes with some great characters, great voice acting, and some great moments between the characters and Shepard. That's what made the games great. It wasn't the story. So interact with the characters. Kill the bad guys. Have fun. The plot is a distant second.

 

We didn't get invested in the Reapers. We got invested in the characters, and that's what sold the games.

 

Do we replay the games for the plot and the Reapers? No. We replay the games for the characters and their stories. That's why we get mad and sad when one or more characters die.

[ZipZap2000]

They pulled it off nicely for me and having Liara ready to take it out on Javik and then having a crack at her mum was icing on the cake combine that with the brooding warrior general Garrus becomes after Palaven and I think it all fits well. I always leave that mission with the feeling that Cerberus must die Sanctuary makes it worse.

 

I hate Kai Leng, I hearing the asari scream for help and I hate that you have to bug out and leave them to their fate. But I think that's what hypes me up so much about the mission and afterwards sanctuary.

[von uber]

Livi14. Knew I forgot someone in my list; I've gone and corrected that.

The list is built on a false premise though isn't it.

[Farangbaa]

Ah, here we are again.

 

 

Continue.

[von uber]

The whole premise of the hidden VI makes no sense anyway, if the asari are supposed to have used the beacon to get ahead. Surely they would have discovered the program, and if so would have built the crucible.
It's like the lack of investigation into the citadel, or the non-discovery of the crucible plans in the mars archive.
The plot requires a massive amount of contrivances to allow shep to become the space messiah.

[Han Shot First]

The whole premise of the hidden VI makes no sense anyway, if the asari are supposed to have used the beacon to get ahead. Surely they would have discovered the program, and if so would have built the crucible.
It's like the lack of investigation into the citadel, or the non-discovery of the crucible plans in the mars archive.
The plot requires a massive amount of contrivances to allow shep to become the space messiah.

 

 

...or no one figuring out how the mass relays work.

[von uber]

I think Aethyta's dialogue pokes a massive hole in the mass effect universe which the writers are well aware of.

[Barquiel]

 

And here's the kicker. They put another piece of the Crucible puzzle in the Archives on Thessia, which means they knew about the Reapers when they built the Thessia Archives, too. If they had put a warning about the Reapers in there, and plans for the Crucible, the Asari could have built the Crucible 2000 years ago.

 

Under normal circumstances we wouldn't need the beacon on Thessia and Vendetta. The only reason we need them is because not one scientist (the best in our cycle!) noticed that the Crucible (the thing they built for months) has arms that extend from it's main body that dock perfectly with the Citadel's ring. Not one engineer realized that the diameter of the unfolded Crucible happens to be the same as the diameter of the Citadel. It's really ridiculous...

[Vazgen]

I'd like to address the claim about asari using the beacon for ages and not discovering Vendetta. From what I gathered, they couldn't activate the beacon, all they could do is to get some basic readings and information which still (combined with genetic modifications Protheans did to them) put them in front of the whole galaxy. The beacon activated only when Shepard (recognized as a Prothean due to the Cipher) got in the temple (or Javik). That's the reason Kai-Leng waited for Shepard to activate the beacon and that's the reason asari built a statue around it.

[KaiserShep]

Funny thing is that even if the mission was a success, the reapers would have killed many thousands if not millions more while Shepard & co. made their way back with the info to complete the Crucible. Thessia was already in deep sh**; it just wouldn't have been there quite as long.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'd like to address the claim about asari using the beacon for ages and not discovering Vendetta. From what I gathered, they couldn't activate the beacon, all they could do is to get some basic readings and information which still (combined with genetic modifications Protheans did to them) put them in front of the whole galaxy. The beacon activated only when Shepard (recognized as a Prothean due to the Cipher) got in the temple (or Javik). That's the reason Kai-Leng waited for Shepard to activate the beacon and that's the reason asari built a statue around it.

 

And that itself is another big ass pull in the Prothean plan. See they were counting on Humans to figure out the whole thing and a certain sequence of events, like a human to meet up with an Asari who had retrived a cipher from the Thorian on Feros which we wouldn't have known about if it wasn't for a human colony. Then Vendetta tells us the cycle repeated itself countless times. WTF? The galaxy breeds idiots? The entire time, billions of years they were waiting, being reaped cycle after cycle waiting for humans to show up? Bah. Tryiing to make sense out of Drew K and Mac's plot makes my head hurt.

 

Enjoy the characters. Shoot the bad guys. Take the one liners. Have fun. It's an Arnold movie in video game format.

[Farangbaa]

And that itself is another big ass pull in the Prothean plan. See they were counting on Humans to figure out the whole thing and a certain sequence of events, like a human to meet up with an Asari who had retrived a cipher from the Thorian on Feros which we wouldn't have known about if it wasn't for a human colony. Then Vendetta tells us the cycle repeated itself countless times. WTF? The galaxy breeds idiots? The entire time, billions of years they were waiting, being reaped cycle after cycle waiting for humans to show up? Bah. Tryiing to make sense out of Drew K and Mac's plot makes my head hurt.

 

Enjoy the characters. Shoot the bad guys. Take the one liners. Have fun. It's an Arnold movie in video game format.

 

Calm down, breathe, and read again.

 

Also, don't forget about the Cipher.

[eternalshiva]

What bothered me wasn't what happened after with Shepard (the weight of the war is really weighing her down, her hopes all pinned on figuring out what the catalyst was etc, the disapointment, the fear of the unknown,) it's what Liara says and acts.

 

She basically tells you the whole time when all this destruction and horror happens around Shepard - Earth, Mars, Turians, etc - all is falling to s**t and she says to buck up, it's war, crap happens and is very detached from it with her Shadow Broker persona. But then Thessia happens.

 

Liara basically straight up says "This isn't earth, it's Thessia! My pain is worst than yours! I can't just push it aside! My people are dying!" and I remember just having the biggest wtf face at the screen and feeling really insulted that somehow her planet falling was worth more than the entire galaxy. Just total dismissal of Shepard and the rest of the crew struggling with their loss. And she doesn't even appologies for being a total dick afterwards. Seriously.

 

All I could think of was "Great, Bioware shoving Liara's pain down my throat again, how do I kick you off the ship?" Just, ugh.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Calm down, breathe, and read again.

 

Also, don't forget about the Cipher.

 

I mentioned the cipher. I'm calm. Don't worry. This is pretty funny to me now. And I did wake up with a migraine. Ouch. Time to take my med for it.

 

It's why the post with this makes sense about the "Losing Thessia wasn't in the cards."

 

Liara: If we lose Thessia, no sex for a month.

Shepard: Don't worry. I never lose.

 

Post Thessia....

 

Shepard: I lost? Wait. I lost? Sh*t! Noooooooo!

 

And Liara is on your ship. Deal with it. She's and Garrus has have to listen to Shepard say Earth was worse than Palaven.

[Barquiel]

And that itself is another big ass pull in the Prothean plan. See they were counting on Humans to figure out the whole thing and a certain sequence of events, like a human to meet up with an Asari who had retrived a cipher from the Thorian on Feros which we wouldn't have known about if it wasn't for a human colony. Then Vendetta tells us the cycle repeated itself countless times. WTF? The galaxy breeds idiots? The entire time, billions of years they were waiting, being reaped cycle after cycle waiting for humans to show up? Bah. Tryiing to make sense out of Drew K and Mac's plot makes my head hurt.

 

Enjoy the characters. Shoot the bad guys. Take the one liners. Have fun. It's an Arnold movie in video game format.

 

You should assume that everyone plot-important in the MEU is rather...incompetent. The protheans (why didn't they build their crucible before the reapers arrived? They had the plans and knew what the catalyst is), the reapers (who obviously forgot to attack the citadel first), basically every political and military leader (fighting usually involves strategy and tactics, but we know what Shepard says), the idiots who were working on the crucible, Cerberus!,...
 

 

And Liara said on several occasions how sorry she is for Earth, both before and after Thessia. She also asked how Garrus is doing after Palaven. Maybe Liara cares more about her own species/her own homeworld, but so does everyone else.

[Vazgen]

And that itself is another big ass pull in the Prothean plan. See they were counting on Humans to figure out the whole thing and a certain sequence of events, like a human to meet up with an Asari who had retrived a cipher from the Thorian on Feros which we wouldn't have known about if it wasn't for a human colony. Then Vendetta tells us the cycle repeated itself countless times. WTF? The galaxy breeds idiots? The entire time, billions of years they were waiting, being reaped cycle after cycle waiting for humans to show up? Bah. Tryiing to make sense out of Drew K and Mac's plot makes my head hurt.

 

Enjoy the characters. Shoot the bad guys. Take the one liners. Have fun. It's an Arnold movie in video game format.

Protheans didn't count on humans or asari, they kept Javik (and possibly a lot of the others) in stasis pods for a reason. They left beacons "from a galaxy-wide communications network" with a warning about the Reapers but also, the location of Ilos, the last refuge of Prothean people. The beacons were coded specifically for Prothean minds, making them useless for the other races. They didn't count on Thorian though.

Protheans never cared about next cycles, their plan was to sleep until the harvest is over and then regroup, build the Crucible and blow the Reapers to hell when they come back.

[Kabooooom]

Not really. If Reapers came full force and took their Citadel, they would have won without a doubt. I mean, they did come and take the Citadel at the end of ME3. It wouldn't really matter when they come. If the Reapers did lose while coming to get their Citadel, that would be lore breaking of how strong they are. Together, they can destroy the Citadel fleets since the fleets would be at a disarray.

I'm going to assume that you didn't actually read my post, since you totally missed the central point of it - the Citadel would know the Reapers were coming, by hours, and close the arms ahead of time. I explained why this is so. The Reapers could not take the Citadel without the element of surprise. And that is likely the primary reason why they didn't take it. The secondary reason, I also explained in depth.

As for how they take it at the end of ME3 - I explained that too, supported with dialogue from Javik. Taken together, the reasoning is internally consistent and supported by lore and in game dialogue. It really is only players who don't pay attention or are looking for something to nitpick that have a problem with it.

[themikefest]

You should assume that everyone plot-important in the MEU is rather...incompetent. The protheans (why didn't they build their crucible before the reapers arrived? They had the plans and knew what the catalyst is), the reapers (who obviously forgot to attack the citadel first), basically every political and military leader (fighting usually involves strategy and tactics, but we know what Shepard says), the idiots who were working on the crucible, Cerberus!,...
 

 

And Liara said on several occasions how sorry she is for Earth, both before and after Thessia. She also asked how Garrus is doing after Palaven. Maybe Liara cares more about her own species/her own homeworld, but so does everyone else.

Did the Protheans know about the crucible before the reapers arrived? Did they know about the Catalyst before the reapers arrived?

 

I have no problem with Liara being sad about her homeworld after the mission, I have a problem with her yelling at Javik for no reason when she should be yelling at her own people for not revealing the artifact earlier.

[von uber]

Citadel closes its arms? Reapers camp outside until everyone starves to death.

[Excella Gionne]

Citadel closes its arms? Reapers camp outside until everyone starves to death.

Sounds legit... but if the Citadel is impenetrable then why make themselves fallible? It just doesn't make sense...

[SNascimento]

I believe Thessia to be one of the worst main missions on the trilogy, from begining of it to the end after the meeting in the Normandy and its aftermath there are a lot of terrible moments on themselves and a lot of restrain to your Shepard roleplaying options. Not to mention the gameplay in the mission is good at best and it's way too short.

[Zana]

Conspiracy theory time.

 

Small portion of asari population is aware of the beacon.  These asari knew about Reapers and Crucible.  They had no way to act on the knowledge of the Crucible without revealing their beacon (and or attempt to covertly building a massive super-weapon with myriad unknowns), something they were unwilling to do.  Furthermore, they have no reason to not trust Protheans who claim that Reapers are unbeatable.  They use the information to enact other methods of saving their race - ie arc ship(s).  Everything is done covertly and no traces of the information is left to prevent Reapers from following said arc ship(s). 

 

When Reapers arrive, asari do not need to reveal their beacon again - humans (with Liara) present the Crucible, so they simply nod their head and give approval for construction - why not? They have already saved their species, and now they try to save another portion of the population.  Shepard is never told about any of this for a simple reason - there is absolutely no reason for asari to reveal the information to a random human.  Finally when asari realize that knowledge from Marsian archives is insufficient and Shepard has no other way of obtaining the missing pieces, they give Councilor the information to pass to Shepard. 

 

/end conspiracy theory

 

Personally my view on the end of Thessia mission agrees with a few posters above.  It was less a loss of the planet, but more of a 'we were THIS CLOSE to ending this, but we lost'. 

 

Note, that I do not think that asari are all white and fluffy.  They seem to be no better or worse than other races.  Obviously they will attempt to be as self-serving as they can.  However throughout ME this is seen in every race encountered.