114 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Give me flexibility any day...

Why can't we have both?

[DuskWanderer]

Why can't we have both?

 

For the same reason a specialist is better than a general practitioner

[DeinonSlayer]

While both arcs were executed well, I think they are also fan favorites in part because Rannoch and Tuchanka had several missions devoted to them. Part of the problem with the Palaven & Thessia missions is that both are one-and-done.

1) What more would there have been to do on Thessia (or Palaven) to justify staying there? Rannoch and Tuchanka were both the conclusions of trilogy-spanning story arcs, while neither Palaven nor Thessia have such history.
2) Would I have been forced to drag Liara around the entire time we were there, consoling her the whole time? Seriously, we can exterminate the entire Quarian species and immediately find James and Kaidan nonchalantly playing poker in the lounge, but Thessia gets hit and even Adams starts coaching Shepard to check in on Liara?

Just my two cents.

[Barquiel]

Not this nonsense again.

Kaidan says that he's sorry about Tali's death, remarks that she was "one of a kind", and he will miss her. He also says he'll never forgive
the geth for Ashley and now Tali's deaths. If Tali died in ME2, he wonders instead how history will remember the quarians. Ashley is heartbroken over Tali's death and nearly crying, saying "she was like a little sister" and that she needs some time to mourn her death. Garrus gets his "angel behind that mask" line. Donelly and Daniels say that they will miss Tali. Joker is angry. Liara is distressed. Only James doesn't really care.

But people being worried about Liara...now that's going too far.

 

While both arcs were executed well, I think they are also fan favorites in part because Rannoch and Tuchanka had several missions devoted to them. Part of the problem with the Palaven & Thessia missions is that both are one-and-done.

The council races didn't get much love in ME3, that's true (and a bit disappointing).

Tuchanka and Rannoch also have quite a few factors determining how they play out...and they reflect all the important choices from the previous games. Most other missions? I can choose whatever and the end will be the very same. Take for example Thessia. Remember that video about dynamic choices that came out before release which showed Shepard picking one choice and not getting asari support? Well for some reason, they completely eliminated that option. I even reloaded a couple times, seeing if there was anything I could do to save Talon 5. Nothing.

[von uber]

The asari screwed the galaxy because of their selfishness, and we're supposed to forgive them because breasts.

What if they were an all male species? Would you say 'because penises'?

It's funny how it's only the all female species that gets all this abuse isn't, along with a certain female character.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And this continues to around and around and around and around....

 

How did the geniuses working on the Mars Archives miss that there was an Archive in Thessia at XX degrees XX minutes xx seconds longitude, and XX degrees XX minutes and xx seconds lattitude? And The Illusive Man magically found it and was simply waiting for the proper moment to go grab the information?

 

Why? Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb.

 

Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one? Nice ass pull Mac.

 

Liara: We recovered plans of a weapon that can defeat the reapers.

 

Blah blah blah

 

 

 

Cut the stupid dialogue with Councilor Udina at the end and insert new smart dialogue with Liara....

 

Liara: Councilor Tevos, may we have a word with you in private.

 

Councilor Tevos: I am very busy helping prepare the defenses of our worlds.

 

Liara: You will want to see this since it does affect Asari security.

 

CT: Very well. Meet me in my office.

 

Shepard and Liara go to the Asari Councilor's office instead of Udina's

 

CT: What was so important that you need to waste my time?

 

Liara: The Mars Archives gave us the location of a very important component for the Crucible. It is located in another Prothean Archive on Thessia at these coordinates. They are the same as the Temple of Athame. It is the only Temple that receives military funding.

 

CT: How did you know about the military funding?

 

Liara: I paid the Shadow Broker for the information. Your channels are not as secure as you think.

 

Shepard: We need to get in there, now.

 

CT: I will have to clear it with our government. That could take a while.

 

Shepard: (Paragon) Get it, now, or the rest of the Council will find out about your little secret. Do it and help the galaxy rebuild, and maybe they'll overlook the fact that you kept the archive hidden; (Renegade) Get it for us, or Thessia and the rest of the Asari Republics burn with the rest of the galaxy. What good will your secret be then? Rest assured I'll make sure they find out you kept a vital asset hidden. What kind of help will you get then?

 

CT: Very well Shepard. You have your clearance.

[themikefest]

If they were all male, I'm sure I would feel the same way about them that I do with the females if the male version did the exact samething as the female version.

[von uber]

If they were all male, I'm sure I would feel the same way about them that I do with the females if the male version did the exact samething as the female version.

Oh I believe you in that regard, it's just others I wonder about.

[Han Shot First]

1) What more would there have been to do on Thessia (or Palaven) to justify staying there? Rannoch and Tuchanka were both the conclusions of trilogy-spanning story arcs, while neither Palaven nor Thessia have such history.
 

 

Most of the Tuchanka and Rannoch missions aren't really connected to wrapping up trilogy spanning arcs. The main missions are of course, but the side missions aren't. The Turian bomb mission on Tuchanka, while it references the Krogan Rebellions, has little to do with actually curing (or not curing) the genophage. The Cerberus anti-air cannon mission doesn't either. The Rannoch side missions are linked to successfully securing peace between the Geth and Quarians, but that didn't have to be the case. You could have cut one of them and it wouldn't affected the Rannoch arc in the slightest. 

 

In my opinion the Tuchanka and Rannoch arcs should have trimmed down by a mission or two each with side mission content instead shifted to Palaven or Thessia. Both of those planets were far more central to the Reaper War.

 

Or better yet, if I can be greedy I'd like to have seen Mass Effect get another year of development and no content cut from Rannoch or Tuchanka, but either the Palaven or Thessia missions expanded.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The purpose of those side missions were for one thing - shooting mooks for the experience points.

[KaiserShep]

Tuchanka could do just fine without the Cerberus attack mission, but I wouldn't cut anything from Rannoch, since just about everything was relevant to the resolution of the story's arc.

[themikefest]

Most of the Tuchanka and Rannoch missions aren't really connected to wrapping up trilogy spanning arcs. The main missions are of course, but the side missions aren't. The Turian bomb mission on Tuchanka, while it references the Krogan Rebellions, has little to do with actually curing (or not curing) the genophage. The Cerberus anti-air cannon mission doesn't either. The Rannoch side missions are linked to successfully securing peace between the Geth and Quarians, but that didn't have to be the case. You could have cut one of them and it wouldn't affected the Rannoch arc in the slightest. 

 

In my opinion the Tuchanka and Rannoch arcs should have trimmed down by a mission or two each with side mission content instead shifted to Palaven or Thessia. Both of those planets were far more central to the Reaper War.

 

Or better yet, if I can be greedy I'd like to have seen Mass Effect get another year of development and no content cut from Rannoch or Tuchanka, but either the Palaven or Thessia missions expanded.

Or better yet, get rid of the Monastery mission, since asari commandos are supposed to be bada** that can handle their own problems and have that added to Thessia.  I will go along with Cerberus mission on  Tuchanka being removed and add it to Palaven leaving only saving the Platoon and bomb for Tuchanka

 

I do agree that another year would help and add content for Palaven and Thessia. and I would include Earth as well to get a longer version of Priority Earth.

[Jorji Costava]

Most of the Tuchanka and Rannoch missions aren't really connected to wrapping up trilogy spanning arcs. The main missions are of course, but the side missions aren't. The Turian bomb mission on Tuchanka, while it references the Krogan Rebellions, has little to do with actually curing (or not curing) the genophage. The Cerberus anti-air cannon mission doesn't either. The Rannoch side missions are linked to successfully securing peace between the Geth and Quarians, but that didn't have to be the case. You could have cut one of them and it wouldn't affected the Rannoch arc in the slightest. 

 

I'm a bit closer to DeinonSlayer's view on this. It's true that there are a few side missions on Tuchanka and Rannoch that aren't relevant to the Genophage or Morning War arcs, but the problem is that having Thessia and/or Palaven as a hub would involving nothing but such side missions. That type of hub would have been better placed in ME1 or ME2 (something along the lines of Omega or Illium; heck, maybe the Illium content could have just been set on Thessia to begin with), where there isn't yet that urgent drive towards the end of the Reaper War and thus, more time to explore locations that aren't critical to the long-running story arcs.

 

While on a basic plot level, Thessia and Palaven are more central to the Reaper War than Tuchanka or Rannoch, I've always been of the opinion that the Reaper war was really just a pretext to bring the other social, political and personal conflicts of the story to a head. In other words, the narrative purpose of the Rannoch arc isn't to advance the Reaper war plot; rather, the purpose of the Reaper War is to advance conflicts like the Morning War, the Genophage, etc. But like Deinon pointed out, there are no trilogy-spanning arcs of this sort that center around Thessia or Palaven; hence the lack of focus on those worlds.

[DuskWanderer]

What if they were an all male species? Would you say 'because penises'?

It's funny how it's only the all female species that gets all this abuse isn't, along with a certain female character.

 

All-male species are very uncommon in sci-fi. But yes, it would be so if that was the case. 

 

But why do you waste times on "could bes?" Thessia "could be" treated as a casualty of the war, or we could criticize High Command for waiting so long. But we didn't, we were supposed to feel bad about it, for no reason other than the asari? They're a favored race, get over your bias and accept it. 

[DuskWanderer]

Not this nonsense again.

Kaidan says that he's sorry about Tali's death, remarks that she was "one of a kind", and he will miss her. He also says he'll never forgive
the geth for Ashley and now Tali's deaths. If Tali died in ME2, he wonders instead how history will remember the quarians. Ashley is heartbroken over Tali's death and nearly crying, saying "she was like a little sister" and that she needs some time to mourn her death. Garrus gets his "angel behind that mask" line. Donelly and Daniels say that they will miss Tali. Joker is angry. Liara is distressed. Only James doesn't really care.

But people being worried about Liara...now that's going too far.

 

The council races didn't get much love in ME3, that's true (and a bit disappointing).

Tuchanka and Rannoch also have quite a few factors determining how they play out...and they reflect all the important choices from the previous games. Most other missions? I can choose whatever and the end will be the very same. Take for example Thessia. Remember that video about dynamic choices that came out before release which showed Shepard picking one choice and not getting asari support? Well for some reason, they completely eliminated that option. I even reloaded a couple times, seeing if there was anything I could do to save Talon 5. Nothing.

 

So the heck what? You are aware that all of those people who are upset about Tali's death know who Tali is, and have worked with her. Further, they are NPC's. Shepard (and the player) has no right to dictate how they feel about the matter. People are complaining that Shepard is required to say Thessia is all his fault, feel horrible about it. 

 

Further, you get to criticize Han'Gerrel and the like. You do not, however, get to criticize Asari High Command. 

[Jorji Costava]

All-male species are very uncommon in sci-fi. But yes, it would be so if that was the case. 

 

But why do you waste times on "could bes?" Thessia "could be" treated as a casualty of the war, or we could criticize High Command for waiting so long. But we didn't, we were supposed to feel bad about it, for no reason other than the asari? They're a favored race, get over your bias and accept it. 

 

I think it's more that Liara is a favored character than that that the Asari are a favored race, especially if we're looking at the trilogy as a whole.  There is no shortage of Asari mooks to fight (the commandos on Noveria, Eclipse mercenaries) or Asari characters that we're simply supposed to dislike or be opposed to somehow (Enyala, Elnora, Wasea, Tela Vasir, etc.). Heck, we fight way more of them than we ever do of the Turians or Quarians. So I think it's the connection to Liara as a character that gives rise to Thessia's elevated importance.

[Darks1d3]

All-male species are very uncommon in sci-fi. But yes, it would be so if that was the case. 

 

But why do you waste times on "could bes?" Thessia "could be" treated as a casualty of the war, or we could criticize High Command for waiting so long. But we didn't, we were supposed to feel bad about it, for no reason other than the asari? They're a favored race, get over your bias and accept it. 

 

That works both ways. Part of the reason you despise Shepard's reaction Post-Thessia is because of your bias against the Asari.

 

However, despite the fact that I like the Asari, I also think that Shepard's reaction Post-Thessia should have been better handled by the writers. I have no problem with Shepard voicing his concerns over losing the Crucible data, but the writers should not have rail-roaded his thoughts/feelings on "losing" Thessia or on the Asari in General(In fact, even though I'm a fan of the Asari race, I'm still of the opinion that the leaders who hid this information are hypocrites and should be properly punished).

 

But it's also not  the only occurrence of Shepard's character being rail-roaded in ME3, or ME in general.
 

[DuskWanderer]

I think it's more that Liara is a favored character than that that the Asari are a favored race, especially if we're looking at the trilogy as a whole.  There is no shortage of Asari mooks to fight (the commandos on Noveria, Eclipse mercenaries) or Asari characters that we're simply supposed to dislike or be opposed to somehow (Enyala, Elnora, Wasea, Tela Vasir, etc.). Heck, we fight way more of them than we ever do of the Turians or Quarians. So I think it's the connection to Liara as a character that gives rise to Thessia's elevated importance.

 

A distinct possibility, and to an extent, it's true. But mooks are just mooks, and even mooks with names are just elite mooks. There has to be more to it than simply Liara, the asari get talked up so much 

[DuskWanderer]

That works both ways. Part of the reason you despise Shepard's reaction Post-Thessia is because of your bias against the Asari.

 

However, despite the fact that I like the Asari, I also think that Shepard's reaction Post-Thessia should have been better handled by the writers. I have no problem with Shepard voicing his concerns over losing the Crucible data, but the writers should not have rail-roaded his thoughts/feelings on "losing" Thessia or on the Asari in General(In fact, even though I'm a fan of the Asari race, I'm still of the opinion that the leaders who hid this information are hypocrites and should be properly punished).

 

But it's also not  the only occurrence of Shepard's character being rail-roaded in ME3, or ME in general.
 

 

The reason I despise Shepard's reaction is that it was completely unrealistic and flew in the face of how I, the player felt. Such a disconnect is a serious problem, particularly in Western RPGs, where creation of the character invests you in the decisions made. I was angry about Tevos and everyone else hiding what was wrong from me, and I was upset that Shepard had to sit around and pout when I went to talk to my squaddies. 

 

But the asari are a favored race, and Liara is the pet character. That's just a fact. I thought the asari were stereotypes in ME1, but I didn't hate them until the whole Thessia thing. 

[KaiserShep]

I would have preferred to be able to follow-up on Shepard's tone inside the temple, when he/she says that the asari should have shared the information.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hate is such a strong thing for a bunch of pixels. Wow. Hate?

 

In ME3, Shepard is no longer the schizoid brick of ME1 and ME2. They gave Shepard some feelings. Shepard is the writer's character. For some people it worked. For others it didn't.

 

Face it, after Thessia, Mac Walters used THIS.

 

Shepard mopes and whines that all is lost for about 15 minutes. Takes it out on everyone on the ship, blames him/herself for the Asari losing Thessia. (yes, Liara is the canon LI - "no sex for a month, Shepard") And now we have to wait for Shepard to gather the team before "it becomes personal."

 

You have no choice. Enjoy the whining. Enjoy the moping. Just realize Shepard isn't going to get laid for a month, and put that on top of what just happened.

[themikefest]

That's because ME3 is the game to start playing a trilogy. Don't pay attention to what happened in the previous games. They mean nothing. That means, if I'm a new palyer, I have no idea who these species are or characters therefore I have no feelings for them or the character I'm playing, so why should I care if my character mopes about some species I never heard about till I played ME3

[Darks1d3]

I'm actually somewhat surprised to see you post in the ME boards again Street. IIRC, you were rather jaded about the whole trilogy before these new boards came up.

 

Not that I'm complaining of course...