13 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Hey people. 

I initially loved the no healing change because its more challenging. Lukas kristjanson talked about this:

Spoiler

"to counter effectively infinite HP, "balance" meant we needed to hit the player with far more potential damage than their characters could withstand, and do it all but instantly. In effect, replacing HP damage (unknown limits) with death/resurrection (known limits). Or we had to stop them from chaining potions, meaning more enemies that put them to sleep or confused them, or otherwise made the player not able to take action."

(Read all of it here: http://forum.bioware...ever/?bioware=1 and feel free to correct me if Ive misunderstood something or quoted out of inteded meaning or context)

However It struck me that the new mechanics - using mitigation - only moves the problem, it doesent seem to have an actual change. Note that I stilll love this change so Im not trying to bash it in any way, this is merely an observation. 
 

Potions and heals had cooldowns
Mitigation spells and abilities has cooldowns

 

Mitigation abilities are no different than healing if you look at the math. Consider this:

DA:O + DA:2 mechanic example
Bob and his team has 500HP, every 18 seconds they can be healed for 300. The group also has aoe heal which heals everyone for 250HP. 

DAI:
Bob and his team has 500HP which does not replenish normally or through heals, every 18 seconds they can each block 300HP. The group also has an aoe barrier that blocks 250 damage for the whole team.

By opening fights with mitigation skills and using them on CD, this adds the same effective HP as a heal would thereby instead of removing the problem with healing, mitigation simply moves the same effective HP with mitigation.

Im no math-expert so Im very curious if this is correct or not. Could someone come with a counter example/argument? The thing Im wondering is basicly this: Havent mandatory healing spells simply been replaced with mandatorty mitigation spells? Like for example: Barrier now seems like a MANDATORY SKILL in the exact same way healing was mandatory. 

Again, Im not bashing the change - I still love it because it seems more challenging to me. But after all the gameplay videos it seems to me that the problem they were trying to fix has only been moved - effective hp will stay the same? Did I miss something with Lukas's post? (or the math behind this change in game mechanics)

 

[Allan Schumacher]

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.

 

Most of my playtime (probably 95%+) is spent in real time combat mode on normal difficulty when I get a chance to "just play the game."  I have done so recently with a dual wield rogue and a mage.

[Allan Schumacher]

If you have the time and you're at liberty to say: could you share some of the pros and cons and the general "feel" over playing a mitigation+limited health over an unlimited healing (though with cooldowns) playstyle? Maybe just say what you feel is the most fun and challenging side of the new system? Speaking for yourself that is and your preferences

(PS: Im asking you as someone who has played the game, not as a Bioware employee if that makes any difference)

 

The biggest difference I notice is simply taking a moment to recognize how I can control the battle.  Sometimes this means having some strong damage dealers open up with powerful attacks to completely take out some targets (utilizing the first strike to take them out before they can put up their own barriers, if that is a risk).  A lot of the time it's simply paying a bit closer attention to "are there other possible combatants that I'm not aware of" as well as "are these guys significantly higher level than me?"  Sometimes it means coming back later.

 

While I can take out a group that is several levels higher than me, it will likely cause me to consume a lot more resources (i.e. potions).  Now if there's a camp location on the otherside, maybe that is worth it.  But if I'm en route to something else and would prefer to not take that risk, I circumvent or look for some way to exploit the battle via terrain or something, or simply come back later (some areas of maps are gated by simply having higher level enemies at a choke point).

[Allan Schumacher]

I just watched the recent stream with Darrah and Laidlaw. Laidlaw played both real time and tactical. He took enough damage to need 4 out of 8 health potions in just two "fights". Being level 3 vs level 4 enemies. It just seems so very punishing. Playing in tactical, at least when he did, didn't even help mitigate the damage.

 

Can you point me to the video and the time?

[Allan Schumacher]

with no healing things are going to become more expensive and at the start of the game you wont have a lot of money to buy potions with, with most games I found that the only time you have the best armor money loot and so forth is towards the end of the game where you have maxed everything, the middle of the game is the grey area where's you only have a so so amount of items and gold.

 

You do not need to buy basic healing potions, you just need to return to a camp.  You do need to use reagents for the other potions, though depending on the potion you could very well be in large supply (i.e. if it uses elfroot).

[Allan Schumacher]

Sounds like a lot of emphasis on "tactical", to constantly open it up to scout ahead. Sigh.

I think you overstate the moment that I take. But hey, you're unsure of what you're going to get and it's not uncommon for people to take that uncertainty and for their brains to run with it and assume worst possible case.
 

You also mentioned, that your thinking; "is it worth it to attack them, is there a camp nearby". Yet again just reaffirms my worries that these camp sites and the constant running back to them for potions is going to be a nuisance. Not a smart development strategy to annoy the players

You misunderstand. Is there a camp on the other side of them? One that I haven't found already and hence I will be rewarded by enduring a tough fight because it will open up a place for me to fast travel to in the future.
 

If some people want a more easy time playing and not feel punished, but still challenged, the solution is not to limit your progress by running back. Stupid artificially increased "difficulty" only adding frustration that even IF or WHEN you beat a hard enemy you are just left with a Phyrric victory because now you're out of potions and your party sit at 25% health. Then the awesome fun time of running back to camp AGAIN comes up. I know it will infuriate me if that is the case.
 
The more I think about it the more offput I am getting. Seeing that Twitch stream and how he had to chug 4 potions in just 2 insignificant fights was just a "sigh" moment.

Fair enough, wait for release then?

I don't find the game overly difficult, but you've already made up your mind at this point so I think it's safe to say that the only thing that can convince you if it worked is the game, not words I type here.


I just watched the fights. If you're going to gauge the difficulty based upon Mike walking back and forth not actually fighting as he describes the effects of the caltrops while taking hits as being unfairly difficult, then I will admit that standing around not doing anything will make the game more difficult, yes.

Or, Mike had an idea of the types of things that he wanted to show and was deliberately playing a particular way to show things off. A segue into healing potions doesn't do much if you don't actually need healing.

Same goes with Mike sitting there not using Solas' Winter Grasp while talking and describing what's going on.

[Allan Schumacher]

I have to ask, did you guys really think about this before implementing it?


In what world would it be FUN to run back to camp for potions? You have no other means to get them, you are VERY limited, you cannot regen after combat. Healing spells limited to build up of focus IN combat.

At this point you're just being snarky. Yes, we gave it some thought. I do not find the combat overly difficult and I do find it fun.

[Allan Schumacher]

I do like the idea of this change. I've always wanted some meaningful defensive abilities. I admit, though, that this gameplay video with Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah scares me a bit. Not worried about survival, but about the tedium of having to retread old ground repeatedly after fast-traveling to a camp to restock my potion belt. Mostly, though, I'm scared about how the difficult fights will do if these non-critical ones already result in so much damage. 

 

I'm rather tolerant of sub-optimal combat as long as it's not too difficult, but it appears to me that some more balanacing might be necessary. Take this as neutral feedback.

 

Would it help if I ran through the scene and gave a run down on how long/far I could go before running out of potions?  I can't take a video, but if I have the time tomorrow I could run through that area.  I'm pretty sure I did the whole area (and it includes mobs that respawn for plot reasons... though for those same plot reasons you can stop the respawning) without actually needing to return to camp.  There was one hard area which is related to completing a quest which does involve a series of fights which is typically where I find myself using potions when I play.  Although there's a unclaimed camp not far past it so even when I "returned to camp" I was still progressing since I was setting up a new camp and getting fresh potions then.  I can restrain myself by only playing as the Inquisitor too (I don't switch very often anyways).

 

While I have been playing the game which means I won't be raw and new and hence have an idea on what the enemies will do, I don't really consider myself to be doing anything all that ultra tactical while on normal difficulty to keep chugging along.  And I do have faith that you will be able to get the hang of effective ways to fight without that much difficulty, even if you don't swap away from the Inquisitor.

 

 

Keep in mind that while you play, you're not going to be trying to talk about what you're doing, nor are you going to be inactive while trying to show off what you're doing.

 

I don't know.  I think people are seeing "this is different" and their mind is running along imagining the worst possible scenario because hey, brains are dumb and do that (mine does it too).  If I can help assuage the concerns I can, though I can only do it by writing things up.

 

 

At the same time, maybe it's something that can only be really understood after playing the game?  I might not be able to help convince people (which is okay too)

[Allan Schumacher]

So my quasi-experiment today.

 

My constraints:

• Only control the Inquisitor
• Do not use tactical camera
• Do not change from starting equipment
• Level up my characters if they leveled
• Also be a Dual Wield Rogue
• Be aggressive and look to instigate combat by jumping in with my rogue
• Do not intentionally use skill combos (Twin Fangs, for instance, does extra damage to a target frozen by Winter's Grasp)
• Try to leverage flanking by attacking targets from their rear.  This would let my attacks do more damage, and also allows for some bonus effects to happen with Twin Fangs.

 

This was probably about 40 minutes of play time.

 

In the area where Mike/Mark had their first fight (Caltrops) I ran around and got into 8 fights.  Most fights had 3 hostiles (I think 1 had 4).  I used two potions during this time.  The potions were used on myself and knowing more about the game (i.e. things I have learned by simply playing the game) here's how I could have avoided them:

• The first potion I was too aggressive and ended up surrounded by magical wards which actually did quite a number on me.  These wards are casted by spellcasters and have markings on the ground.  I could have assessed the situation better and been more careful to not end up in them.
• The second potion was because I had engaged a tougher enemy while Cassandra was tripped up on a nearby guardsman (the shield guys).  The guardsman kept Cassandra busy and left me to solo a character.  I could have remedied this by changing my target to help burn the guardsman, or using radial target control to quickly tell my entire party to attack my current target.

 

My 9th fight was the one that Mike and Mark did with the tactical camera.  I used one potion here because those archers made me a pin cushion while we all beat up the first guardsman.  I could have better focus fired the archers and leveraged stealth to help me avoid taking damage from them.  If a guardsman is pulling your attention while archers shoot you in the back (I also shouldn't have exposed my back), then you're effectively being tanked

 

 

Fights 10-13 were related to a quest that isn't too far from the 2nd fight Mike and Mark did.  I used 4 potions here.  Cass and Varric both used one, and I used two for my Inquisitor.  The biggest thing I could have done here is focus fire.  I made a huge mistake in fight 12 by effectively swapping targets by mistake, and having aggro on two characters.  I should have looked to kite/disengage more at that point, and have the team focus fire and Cass taunt.  But I did get through it, completed a quest and gained Inquisition power and found a very powerful sword (though I didn't equip it).

 

Fight 14 was against a group of animals.  Used my last potion here (Varric took a heavy hit).  At this point I was, right beside a new camp location which unlocks a new fast travel point for me and replenishes my potions in the process.  So I actually never "returned to camp" since I just found a new camp.

 

 

Now, it is important to note that I'm not new to the game.  So even if I try to play ultra aggressive or even "as a new player" I'm still going to likely have implicit actions that I don't even realize I'm doing.  I'm not really a good judge of my own "mad gamer skills" but it's also possible I am someone that tends to do well with this type of combat anyways.  At the same time, I have also improved my ability to play the game which (at least for me) is a rewarding aspect of the combat.

[Allan Schumacher]

You do realize this makes things so much harder for causal gamers right?

And going back to camp just to get some potions seems idiotic not to mention we can't regain health after battle, I know you guys want realism but this is still a game not an interactive movie, siriously did you guys even think to ask the gamers would they would like more before adding this feature in the game?

Sure I could understand it working for a high level play through like nightmare but  having it while playing on easy mode seems dare I say unfair?

 

I get Bioware wants to make the game more challanging but not all of us are cod players some of us just play the game for the story.

Also what if the camp is far far away from the quest it self?. I don't want to have to stop what I'm doing then go all the way back just to buy potions, no healing for a mage just nuts, it's like asking a warrior to not use a sword.

 

I did not mean to sound rude it just came across that way

 

I have only described the game from Normal difficulty.  We do have an easier difficulty setting which from what I hear Luke's kid was able to play without much issue.

[Allan Schumacher]

Just a slight nitpicking: Shouldn't a target frozen in ice take less damage from a dagger than if not frozen? The target is protected by layers of ice, after all.

 

Because Twin Fangs has a combo ability against targets that are incapacitated and Winter's Grasp is one of the abilities that applies a condition that satisfies this.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fair enough. That bit makes sense too. Just thought it was abit odd that it was really effective against someone inside a block of ice. I am sure you agree.

 

It would depend on what the freezing mechanic is doing because stuff can get brittle after being flash frozen.

 

But in reality it's a person frozen in a block of ice that somehow is able to survive that anyways.  So... magic.

[Allan Schumacher]

Spamming barrier/guard is also gonna' be even worse without automatic healing, because every time you don't do it in combat you are affecting the rest of your travel time. Where as choosing not to spam healing was only a problem during really difficult battles, and not literally 100% of all combat forever.

 

That's also because health regen existed and it meant that if a combat wasn't innately always threatening a complete party wipe, it was irrelevant with no risk.

[Allan Schumacher]

You know, I never really noticed that potion chugging/heal spam in DAO was really an issue. Did someone on the design team play Skyrim by accident and account for that instead?

 

Potion chugging was ridiculous in DAO (doubly so since you could literally craft them while paused as long as you had the mats).  Especially since the cooldown only applied to a specific type of potion meaning you could drink different potions (lesser/greater) in quick succession.

 

I wouldn't say that the heal spell was a huge issue, but the issue here is more the removal of health regen.  Get rid of that but still have a heal spell and you've made people sit there casting a heal spell after fights.