172 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Hey people. 

I initially loved the no healing change because its more challenging. Lukas kristjanson talked about this:

Spoiler

"to counter effectively infinite HP, "balance" meant we needed to hit the player with far more potential damage than their characters could withstand, and do it all but instantly. In effect, replacing HP damage (unknown limits) with death/resurrection (known limits). Or we had to stop them from chaining potions, meaning more enemies that put them to sleep or confused them, or otherwise made the player not able to take action."

(Read all of it here: http://forum.bioware...ever/?bioware=1 and feel free to correct me if Ive misunderstood something or quoted out of inteded meaning or context)

However It struck me that the new mechanics - using mitigation - only moves the problem, it doesent seem to have an actual change. Note that I stilll love this change so Im not trying to bash it in any way, this is merely an observation. 
 

Potions and heals had cooldowns
Mitigation spells and abilities has cooldowns

 

Mitigation abilities are no different than healing if you look at the math. Consider this:

DA:O + DA:2 mechanic example
Bob and his team has 500HP, every 18 seconds they can be healed for 300. The group also has aoe heal which heals everyone for 250HP. 

DAI:
Bob and his team has 500HP which does not replenish normally or through heals, every 18 seconds they can each block 300HP. The group also has an aoe barrier that blocks 250 damage for the whole team.

By opening fights with mitigation skills and using them on CD, this adds the same effective HP as a heal would thereby instead of removing the problem with healing, mitigation simply moves the same effective HP with mitigation.

Im no math-expert so Im very curious if this is correct or not. Could someone come with a counter example/argument? The thing Im wondering is basicly this: Havent mandatory healing spells simply been replaced with mandatorty mitigation spells? Like for example: Barrier now seems like a MANDATORY SKILL in the exact same way healing was mandatory. 

Again, Im not bashing the change - I still love it because it seems more challenging to me. But after all the gameplay videos it seems to me that the problem they were trying to fix has only been moved - effective hp will stay the same? Did I miss something with Lukas's post? (or the math behind this change in game mechanics)

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yep.

 

Next game, watch them try something else to counter "Barrier Spam". 

[In Exile]

The difference is that healing is permanent HP and works to restore people after battle, whereas barrier (and similar abilities) are basically temporary HP and are only useful in combat. It's something that (depending on how barrier works) might actually scale much more favourable with difficulty (if it sponges the same proportional amount of damage even as you get squishier moving toward nightmare). 

 

Temporary HP isn't exactly like permanent HP, though. 

[katerinafm]

With the difference that Barrier has an area of affect and pretty small range, and it instantly starts wearing off as soon as you use it. Depending on how long the cooldowns are, it could be pretty frustrating to use and protect all characters with it. And the fact that health does not regenerate fully even outside of combat (or if it does it happens very slowly), it's an overall much more challenging system this time around rather than just changing healing to barrier.

[Lumix19]

The difference is that healing is permanent HP and works to restore people after battle, whereas barrier (and similar abilities) are basically temporary HP and are only useful in combat. It's something that (depending on how barrier works) might actually scale much more favourable with difficulty (if it sponges the same proportional amount of damage even as you get squishier moving toward nightmare). 
 
Temporary HP isn't exactly like permanent HP, though.

Indeed. In my experience temporary HP punishes mistakes (which I tend to make a lot of). If I miscalculate and lose half of my health then I have a problem if I'm relying on temporary HP. Whereas with heal I can easily recover.

[In Exile]

Indeed. In my experience temporary HP punishes mistakes (which I tend to make a lot of). If I miscalculate and lose half of my health then I have a problem if I'm relying on temporary HP. Whereas with heal I can easily recover.

 

You have to be careful with the timer with temp HP. It can also change the calculation when it's timer based exclusively and sponges anything and everything. Suddenly preserving that barrier to soak obscene amounts of damage becomes very desirable, changing the heal calculus. 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Indeed. In my experience temporary HP punishes mistakes (which I tend to make a lot of). If I miscalculate and lose half of my health then I have a problem if I'm relying on temporary HP. Whereas with heal I can easily recover.

Im glad to read this because my main issue with DA:O + DA:2 has always been the combat being trivially easy with Nightmare feeling more like normal mode. So if temporary HP punishes mistakes more it looks to be a nice change overall.

I was mostly curious in how the "math" behind this change would affect the play due to mitigation CDs + base mitigation (armor + resist) =  potentially "unlimited" effective HP as with healing? 

[coldflame]

Only time will tell whether removing healing in combat is a mistake or not.

[Lumix19]

You have to be careful with the timer with temp HP. It can also change the calculation when it's timer based exclusively and sponges anything and everything. Suddenly preserving that barrier to soak obscene amounts of damage becomes very desirable, changing the heal calculus.

Absolutely and sometimes when I'm playing I'm not paying attention to the temp HP and suddenly I'm taking damage which I won't get back.

Im glad to read this because my main issue with DA:O + DA:2 has always been the combat being trivially easy with Nightmare feeling more like normal mode. So if temporary HP punishes mistakes more it looks to be a nice change overall.
I was mostly curious in how the "math" behind this change would affect the play due to mitigation CDs + base mitigation (armor + resist) =  potentially "unlimited" effective HP as with healing?

It's just my experience from other games, we'll have to see how it actually functions when DA:I comes out but I think it is along those lines.

[leaguer of one]

So basically...The mass effect barrier system was put in dai.

[leaguer of one]

Only time will tell whether removing healing in combat is a mistake or not.

If you play ME multiplayer with a Volas you would see that it works.

[EmperorKarino]

If you play ME multiplayer with a Volas you would see that it works.

 

i love playing as the volus

[coldflame]

If you play ME multiplayer with a Volas you would see that it works.

Yah that's until when the stupid volus shield boost you when you are in the middle of a reload and locks every ability you have got and your weapons too.

 

However, the volus is a very good troll class though. I think a volus vanguard with the brofist gear is the best...

[Kharn-ivor]

"Mitigation abilities are no different than healing if you look at the math. "

Thats the thing, with healing it is just math because it's reactive, where as shielding has to be pro active . In fact you could automate healing by having spells cast at different health levels. Where as with shileding you need to guess or know the ennemy and his likely action, healing allways works but you can fail at shielding. In effect healing isn't often wasted where as shielding/mitigation can be.

 

So yeah preempt every single damage event it could be like healing mathematically but not for the player. And thats assuming the mitigation is total and not percent based.

 

The other side of the coin is that encounters can be designed more effectively by knowing more or less how much damage the players party can take.

 

Thats my take on it anyways ^^

[Thumb Fu]

I saw it as a move to be more proactive rather than reactive. Dragon age at it's core is a tactical game about preparing for each fight and planning ahead. Would you prefer there were no healing or damage mitigating abilities in the game, would this alleviate any perceived issue with "heal spam" or "barrier spam"? It is a better idea to tune those abilities and the combat encounters to provide more depth rather than just remove them entirely.

[finc.loki]

I absolutely hate everything they did with "health".

 

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.

Who was the genius coming up with this crap? 8 potions only, only to be replenished at camps. No health regen between battles, so you are always up Sh*t-creek if you are low on potions running around with a team of 25% health.

 

I am OK with 8 potion limit if, after battle you restore to full health. Without being able to restore to full health after combat, you are now DOUBLY punished.You are also screwed if you ran out of potions. Watching the game play videos of admittedly not very good player (which will account for 90% of all people BUYING this game, dumb move Bioware), all I see is potential frustration. What is their solution, that you have to run back to previous camp to get potions back? Do they realize how aggravating this will be.

 

Who tosses out this "barrier"? A mage? So you are forced to have a mage in your part now? Also, if YOU play the mage you are forced to use this barrier spell removing 1 out of 8 abilities? How does this crap work????????

 

The game looks awesome in all aspects except this. It caters to hardcore players that love the tactical camera. It ruins it for the rest. Expect a lot of upset players Bioware. It will wear very thin to have all these limitations.

Even in Casual you only get 50% health.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

The devs did not remove heal spam because they disliked it or though it made the game too easy or hard. They removed it because it made the game hard to balance. With heal spam and unlimited heal potions in Origins, the devs could never be certain how much effective health your team had. By removing heal spam its easier for them to calculate your effective health. Furthermore, the game isn't balance with each encounter in a vacuum. If the only way to heal your party in between fights is through heath potions then your going to have to be more cautious with each battle. Damage Mitigation abilities won't save you if you start a battle with little health remaining. This gives players a reason to seek out camps (so you can refill you potion count and heal your party) which promotes exploration, another objective of this game.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I absolutely hate everything they did with "health".

 

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.

Who was the genius coming up with this crap? 8 potions only, only to be replenished at camps. No health regen between battles, so you are always up Sh*t-creek if you are low on potions running around with a team of 25% health.

 

I am OK with 8 potion limit if, after battle you restore to full health. Without being able to restore to full health after combat, you are now DOUBLY punished.You are also screwed if you ran out of potions. Watching the game play videos of admittedly not very good player (which will account for 90% of all people BUYING this game, dumb move Bioware), all I see is potential frustration. What is their solution, that you have to run back to previous camp to get potions back? Do they realize how aggravating this will be.

 

Who tosses out this "barrier"? A mage? So you are forced to have a mage in your part now? Also, if YOU play the mage you are forced to use this barrier spell removing 1 out of 8 abilities? How does this crap work????????

 

The game looks awesome in all aspects except this. It caters to hardcore players that love the tactical camera. It ruins it for the rest. Expect a lot of upset players Bioware. It will wear very thin to have all these limitations.

Even in Casual you only get 50% health.

 

We know warriors (at least S&S) have their own damage mitigation abilities while rogues rely on stealth to avoid getting hit. It might be possible to play without a mage. But its always been harder to play without mages in Dragon Age. Origin was much harder without a mage. Also, its possible that if you set barrier to be used in the tactics page then you won't need to equip it on your ability bar. Therefore this might be a non-issue.

 

From the videos we've seen, damage from regular enemies seems reduced compared to previous games to compensate for the lack of health regen. The videos released today shows a casual player who never used the tactical camera and he did just fine. I'd suggest holding your judgement till the game comes out rather than panicking over the few drops of info we have.

[finc.loki]

We know Warriors (at least S&S) have their own damage mitigation abilities while rogues rely on stealth to avoid getting hit. It might be possible to play without a mage. But its always been harder to play without mages in Dragon Age. Origin was much harder without a mage. Also, its possible that if you set barrier to be used in the tactics page then you won't need to equip it as one of your spells. Therefore this might be a non-issue.

 

From the videos we've seen, damage from regular enemies seems reduced compared to previous games to compensate for the lack of health regen. The videos released today shows a casual player who never used the tactical camera and he did just fine. I'd suggest holding your judgement till the game comes out rather than panicking over the few drops of info we have.

I just have this feeling they made a huge mistake with removing any health regeneration after each battle. Really think about this for a second. They also removed the ability to spam potions because they are limited and cannot even be found anywhere. They took it TOO far. If you have several fights and you end up with really low health for your party in several of them, 8 potions means only 2 full heals for each party member. There is no "out of combat healing". You end up screwed if you make a little mistake. How is it even REMOTELY fun to run back to a camp several minutes away to replenish your potions. I predict a lot of people will be royally pissed about this after a while. There is a reason why most these demo players suck. They also represent the vast majority of the players.

Even if you played better, you basically WILL be screwed as a real time player. You simply cannot mitigate away all the damage, damage WILL happen no matter how skilled you are. So it becomes a game where you always end up with no or low potions and a party of 25% health players. Using these barriers and other means only temporarily mask you 25% health. So when it wears off you are still up Sh*t-creek and die from a single blow.

 

It forces people INTO tactical camera and the constant pausing.

 

Even playing on casual you only get 50% health back.  Perhaps it will be different playing the game, I still think they messed up.

 

They could do what they do now, but at least regenerate out of combat health. I can't believe how utterly dumb that decision was to remove it. No one likes to run around with a party at low health and no way to fix it.

 

How would you feel if you messed up or 'tried" and then failed and now out of potions, deep into a mission far from a 'camp' and your party at low health. What will you do? Reload a previous save, run back for ages, because wow that is fun running back to camp all the time.

 

It is clearly evidenced by all the 'casual' players in these recent videos. They ALL fail and their party members always sit on low health. What a giant mistake to balance a game around hardcore players and the tactical camera. Especially since the vast majority expect to just "play the game" and not always worry about playing turn based combat.

[Aimi]

From the videos we've seen, damage from regular enemies seems reduced compared to previous games to compensate for the lack of health regen. The videos released today shows a casual player who never used the tactical camera and he did just fine. I'd suggest holding your judgement till the game comes out rather than panicking over the few drops of info we have.

Emphasis on "casual". One of the guys didn't even seem to be aware that he had auto-attacks, and only ever jumped into a fight when one of his talents was off cooldown. Otherwise he ran around aimlessly letting his companions do all the work. Never mind the tac cam, positioning, pausing, or giving companions orders.

If people can limp through Normal by playing as derpily as that, they can do just fine with an even basic amount of combat awareness. This "only Casual will be possible!!11" doom and gloom is preposterous.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Oh no, he was well aware his rogue had auto attacks. He explained that he wanted a sneaky trap laying medic that stayed out of combat and only used his abilities. This was so he could stealth and raise any of his characters that died. Unfortunately, a lot of the damage a rogue does comes from auto attacks so. Even by gimping himself for roleplaying reasons, he still did pretty well. I suspect this is on normal so theres still easy for people who want some health regen.

[leaguer of one]

I absolutely hate everything they did with "health".

 

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.

Who was the genius coming up with this crap? 8 potions only, only to be replenished at camps. No health regen between battles, so you are always up Sh*t-creek if you are low on potions running around with a team of 25% health.

 

I am OK with 8 potion limit if, after battle you restore to full health. Without being able to restore to full health after combat, you are now DOUBLY punished.You are also screwed if you ran out of potions. Watching the game play videos of admittedly not very good player (which will account for 90% of all people BUYING this game, dumb move Bioware), all I see is potential frustration. What is their solution, that you have to run back to previous camp to get potions back? Do they realize how aggravating this will be.

 

Who tosses out this "barrier"? A mage? So you are forced to have a mage in your part now? Also, if YOU play the mage you are forced to use this barrier spell removing 1 out of 8 abilities? How does this crap work????????

 

The game looks awesome in all aspects except this. It caters to hardcore players that love the tactical camera. It ruins it for the rest. Expect a lot of upset players Bioware. It will wear very thin to have all these limitations.

Even in Casual you only get 50% health.

So, I take it you never played bulder's gate.

[andar91]

Hmmmmmm. I disagree.

 

I'll basically add on to what In Exile first said. The problem with healing wasn't that it kept people alive, it was that it kept them alive indefinitely. Now, that worked fine in earlier games, but in THIS game, health doesn't regenerate...except traditional healing spells would have made that totally irrelevant. Mitigation is different because it's only useful in teh short-term; it doesn't break the system outside of combat.

 

I'll also add that Barrier isn't necessarily the only mitigation ability, depending on how you look at it. Sure, it's the most direct, but I have a very broad definition. Lightning bolts that paralyze an enemy before they can get to you mitigates damage (it prevents it from happening). Fade Step carries Vivienne out of the path of a rampaging Ogre - she takes no damage. A Warrior ability taunts enemies away from the nearly dying - they don't get killed for a few more moments. Stealth hides a rogue from enemies - they aren't hit. Wall of Ice secludes a row of archers and totally strips them of their ability to harm the party. 

 

So on and so on.

 

That said, healing COULD work under certain circumstances, and it may work like this in the game. But still, I could see something like this being a non-focus ability.

 

Healing Wave (Active)

You unleash a wave of healing energy centered on you that refreshes your allies and keeps them fighting longer.

 

Health Regeneration: 25% (Cap at 50% total health)

Size: 10 meters

 

Cooldown: 20 seconds

 

With something like that, you have regular healing, but it can only raise the party up to 50% of their total health, so it's only gonna be so useful.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Funny, I must be an old man. I still remember back in the good old days before regenerating health became mainstream. Nobody seemed to have great difficulty in beating games back then, I'm sure people will get use to the lack of regen once they start playing DA: I

[Aimi]

Oh no, he was well aware his rogue had auto attacks. He explained that he wanted a sneaky trap laying medic that stayed out of combat and only used his abilities. This was so he could stealth and raise any of his characters that dead. Unfortunately, a lot of the damage a rogue does comes from auto attacks so. Even by gimping himself for roleplaying reasons, he still did pretty well. I suspect this is on normal so theres still easy for people who want some health regen.

Huh. I guess that's what happens when you don't watch the "commentary" videos. Since I didn't have to listen to some rando's voice getting in the way of the game, I consider it a fair trade. And yeah, the roleplaying "reason" is bizarre, inconsistent, and doesn't make any sense in terms of the gameplay.

As you say, though: whether he was gimping himself out of ignorance or gimping himself out of...something else, he was still badly underpowering his party, and he still managed to plow through. The point stands.