172 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

How would you feel if you messed up or 'tried" and then failed and now out of potions, deep into a mission far from a 'camp' and your party at low health. What will you do? Reload a previous save, run back for ages, because wow that is fun running back to camp all the time.

 

 

I'm the type of obsessive compulsive player that always quick saves before each and every fight and tries hard to never let any of my characters die ever, on nightmare difficulty. So yeah............I might be the wrong person to ask that question too.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Thanks for putting things more into perspective. As I said I already loved the idea of no healing. Wont know for sure until the game is out but IMO the game will now be harder for the right reasons. One of the problems with NM mode in DA:2 was the burst damage from assassins and saarebas was about the only thing that could kill my characters, it didnt feel hard in the good way just "cheap".

Using tactics and strategy to the max with positioning having major importance, heavy gear customization and tactical camera - coupled with good balance in defensive vs offensive + CC skills in an almost turn-based combat where every decision needs to be heavily weighted in the opportunity cost department against an opponent with a variety of skills and tactics on their own and (hopefully) a good AI is what makes the game challenging in a good way imo. 

I'm not entirely sure why so many people are scared to death over the new combat mechanic with no healing. I guess it just takes them out of the comfort zone of known factors. As for me I found Tank=aggro, Heal tank, DPS until dead rather boring and static.

 

Anyway I made this thread separate from the healing thread because I was afraid of healing simply being moved to barrier spam considering effective health, but I see now how this affects combat differently.

[Adhin]

They weren't removing 'Heal Spam' though they keep mentioning it. It's just there way of saying theres no heal spell you can use all the time. They made the change to make battles have lasting effect, barrier and guard functionally serve the same purpose as healing but can't heal you to full after each fight. This also only works because we don't insta-heal to full at the end of every fight now either.

 

Frankly I wish they would stop saying 'nope, no heal spam now' as its caused all this damn confusion as to why the mechanics are there in the first place.

[finc.loki]

So, I take it you never played bulder's gate.

No I haven't. I haven't played Balder's gate either.

[AlanC9]

So you're a Bauldur's Gate fan, eh?

[finc.loki]

Funny, I must be an old man. I still remember back in the good old days before regenerating health became mainstream. Nobody seemed to have great difficulty in beating games back then, I'm sure people will get use to the lack of regen once they start playing DA: I

Did they have limit to how many potions or other forms of healing you could have/take?

 

See they have a big limitation in this game, so it becomes a double punishment when you can't restore your health outside of combat with a spell or auto-regen. If they actually had a spell that can restore out of combat health, but not in combat, I am all good. That would be great.

 

I do not want any regen IN  combat, and I don't mind the limited potions if I knew that if I succeed in defeating the enemies my party will heal back to full health again.

 

The potion limit already does mitigate a lot. In other ones you could store a gazillion heal potions, have healing spells with mages etc.

 

The problem ends up that if you do have a bad fight or made mistakes you pay for it for the rest of the mission. That isn't fun.

 

Now, I am not talking about Hard or nightmare difficulties. I am talking normal mode. It is too punishing if you want to play "real time" oriented combat.

Sure, most of the players in the videos haven't exactly been stellar or even mediocre. I can still see a possible problem.

 

What bothers me the most though is that they even put this restraint on the absolutely easiest mode "casual mode". By only 50% health back when dead and resurrected etc. Why not let that one easy mode have that?

 

Normal should just be normal play, it is wrong if they want to steer you into tactical camera as a must to "manage".

[finc.loki]

So you're a Bauldur's Gate fan, eh?

No I only play Bolder's gate.

 

I hear Baldur's gate is good though, a little bit too old for me now though.

[AlanC9]

I absolutely hate everything they did with "health".

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.
Who was the genius coming up with this crap? 8 potions only, only to be replenished at camps. No health regen between battles, so you are always up Sh*t-creek if you are low on potions running around with a team of 25% health.

I am OK with 8 potion limit if, after battle you restore to full health. Without being able to restore to full health after combat, you are now DOUBLY punished.You are also screwed if you ran out of potions. Watching the game play videos of admittedly not very good player (which will account for 90% of all people BUYING this game, dumb move Bioware), all I see is potential frustration. What is their solution, that you have to run back to previous camp to get potions back? Do they realize how aggravating this will be.

Who tosses out this "barrier"? A mage? So you are forced to have a mage in your part now? Also, if YOU play the mage you are forced to use this barrier spell removing 1 out of 8 abilities? How does this crap work????????

The game looks awesome in all aspects except this. It caters to hardcore players that love the tactical camera. It ruins it for the rest. Expect a lot of upset players Bioware. It will wear very thin to have all these limitations.
Even in Casual you only get 50% health.

If only it would be this hardcore of an experience. I really don't think it's likely that DAI will be the first Bio game ever to be this tough. (You could get unlucky in BG1, but that's not at all the same thing as being hard.)

[cjones91]

Meh....I've already said my piece about the limited healing thing.I still think it's just a way to artificially increase the difficulty just like the enemy waves in DA2.

[Grayvisions]

If you play ME multiplayer with a Volas you would see that it works.

 

Difference being Barriers in ME recharge over time when you duck for cover. Barriers in DAI have to be recast and there are any number of situations that could change that or make it impractical in the heat of battle.

 

I don't like the way this is being treated as if it was some new thing. It's just a rehash of GW2's system where heals are extremely limited, instead people having to work to avoid/defer the damage in the first place, with some minor healing (usually health leech or heal-on-hit with the exception of Elementalist who has a pretty decent heal rain with a very long CD, meant for emergency situations and skill combos). The problems with GW2's system are why I'm wary of this one; in GW2, you end up in situations where battles are either waaaaay too hard, because healing is limited if not impossible depending on your build and just one mistake is enough to leave you nearly dead (usually boss battles are large waves of enemies at once), or waaaay too easy because the wider, more general enemy population's damage is set with the assumption that players won't spend much time healing.

 

The system encourages two extremes of too much damage, or not enough. And from the gameplay videos I've seen so far, DAI is suffering from the exact same problems. In some battles, HP practically goes from full to nothing nearly instantly, while in others, even Solas can stand there soaking hits like a tank. 

[chrstnmonks]

I have seen Baulder Gate mentioned here a couple of times, I think it is worth noting that in BG you could rest anywhere or sleep at an inn to get health restored and I don't recall there being a limit on health potions or scrolls. Also, you could have a cleric/ranger/paladin  heal you or visit a temple . I wish they would have let full health regen outside of combat.But it is not to be,alas. 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I have seen Baulder Gate mentioned here a couple of times, I think it is worth noting that in BG you could rest anywhere or sleep at an inn to get health restored and I don't recall there being a limit on health potions or scrolls. Also, you could have a cleric/ranger/paladin  heal you or visit a temple . I wish they would have let full health regen outside of combat.But it is not to be,alas. 

 

I keep forgetting thats true. I like to limit my resting to inns for extra challenge in BG1. Then again, I usually don't even take a dedicated mage, instead depending on wands for my spells. I'm an odd ball.

[Adhin]

Yeah you could rest at anytime in most of the Infinity engine games (well mostly, cities often not) but you'd also almost always get ambushed. Was random but it would happen a lot. So people would often save, then rest, reload if it went poorly and so on. It ultimately resulted in 2 things, save and rest spamming through out everything. I always did my best to make sure I didn't do either of those but yeah. Also clerical healing was pretty limited and tricky as hell in combat.

 

Personally I like the changes with healing and the new mitigation stuff. Keeps the feel of each combat being meaningful, theres no poor design issues with spam rest/healing. I just hope it works out like It seems it will.

[Wolfen09]

Difference being Barriers in ME recharge over time when you duck for cover. Barriers in DAI have to be recast and there are any number of situations that could change that or make it impractical in the heat of battle.

 

I don't like the way this is being treated as if it was some new thing. It's just a rehash of GW2's system where heals are extremely limited, instead people having to work to avoid/defer the damage in the first place, with some minor healing (usually health leech or heal-on-hit with the exception of Elementalist who has a pretty decent heal rain with a very long CD, meant for emergency situations and skill combos). The problems with GW2's system are why I'm wary of this one; in GW2, you end up in situations where battles are either waaaaay too hard, because healing is limited if not impossible depending on your build and just one mistake is enough to leave you nearly dead (usually boss battles are large waves of enemies at once), or waaaay too easy because the wider, more general enemy population's damage is set with the assumption that players won't spend much time healing.

 

The system encourages two extremes of too much damage, or not enough. And from the gameplay videos I've seen so far, DAI is suffering from the exact same problems. In some battles, HP practically goes from full to nothing nearly instantly, while in others, even Solas can stand there soaking hits like a tank. 

 

true, but most of the gameplay demos were done by the developers.  Only the recent 2 or 3 videos actually has what looks like actual proportional health.... in the early videos they even said they modded health and stamina/mana just to show off the combat system.  From the previous 3 videos ive seen, it actually looks quite challenging and not really all that easy.

[KoorahUK]

One other aspect of this change which appears to have been overlooked is that you are now expected to decide whether combat is worth engaging to start off with. Traditionally, you went to an area, engaged groups of enemies until they were dead, healed, then went on to the next group. Complete, rinse repeat, until the area was "clear".

 

You ask what will I do if I'm low on potions and health? Maybe not engage every low level thug and henchmen on the way to my destination so they can chip away at my parties health and apply death by a 1000 cuts. Mike said this in the Crestwood demo, just as they were engaging the Red Lyrium demon thing I believe. We also saw plenty of evidence in recent gameplay videos that some fights are avoidable. 

If I have OCD then once I've discovered all the camps through exploring the area I can fast travel between them mopping up remaining bad guys in its radius. Its not just the mechanics that have changed its the entire approach to combat including risk vs reward. 

 

"But thats different to what we used to do!"

 

Yes it is. Thats the point. Whether you like the new direction is a matter of flavour, its will require a paradigm shift in how you approach combat thats true, but if you apply DA:O mindset to DA:I combat you may come a cropper.

[PillarBiter]

I'm going to try taking 2 mages as much as possible

 

BARRRIIIEEEEEERRSSSSSSS!

[Disco Overlord]

I feel like a good reason to have the limited healing system is to extend what is considered a 'fight.' Before, with health regeneration and easy access to healing, every encounter with enemies no matter how easy or hard was a singular isolated fight because you would start every encounter with full health/mana/stamina. An area/dungeon would just be consisted of a bunch of isolated fights.

 

As you progress through an area you would essentially 'forget' the easy trash mobs you fought along the way. This can lead to static and boring gameplay because smaller trash mobs can essentially be considered inconsequential and be reduced to just being there to hack and slash through without any thought.

In order to upgrade these trash mobs to have some kind of gameplay value, you can see how game developers try to remedy this when you look at any typical 'boss' fight in games. You would have the big boss fight you and as he loses HP or time goes by, he might go untargetable and summon his waves of lesser minions at you which you must defeat before he becomes targetable again: an easy example is the dragon fight in Dragon Age 2 with his dragonlings (I'm sure you can think of similar boss fights throughout all games you've played). You have to think about how much damage you might be taking as you fight trash mobs and can't willy nilly play badly and survive with 1 hp because you know you have the big dragon to fight again soon.

 

Now with limited healing, an area/dungeon can now act like a 'boss fight' instead of small isolated fights; the trash mobs are not inconsequential anymore. If the Dragon Age developers realize this it can make for more dynamic areas/dungeons and interesting surprises as you make your way through them.

[CoffeeElemental]

The healing change in DA:I makes it similar to Dark Souls, which would not be a bad thing if it succeeds.

[Chiramu]

I just can't wait to play myself. It is different watching to actually feeling how a game plays, you can watch all the games on twitch and still have no idea how a game plays.

[Allan Schumacher]

It ruined the game for anyone wanting to play in real time. Forcing you to play in Casual.

 

Most of my playtime (probably 95%+) is spent in real time combat mode on normal difficulty when I get a chance to "just play the game."  I have done so recently with a dual wield rogue and a mage.

[The Elder King]

Yeah, I don't think you'll be forced playing the game with tactical camera on Normal, if you're good. If Not, casual is easy enough that a seven years old boy without knowledge of the gameplay system destroyed enemies, including a Pride demon.

[NoForgiveness]

Ya I came from the dark realms of WoW, where I've pretty much always played healers. But I've never played a priest because of the absorption spells. So if I was to choose between "heal spamming" and barrier spamming, I'd much rather have heal spamming. Though a system could've been worked out to have both. But anyway, the point is that this one goes into the "stuffs that worries me" box.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Most of my playtime (probably 95%+) is spent in real time combat mode on normal difficulty when I get a chance to "just play the game."  I have done so recently with a dual wield rogue and a mage.

If you have the time and you're at liberty to say: could you share some of the pros and cons and the general "feel" over playing a mitigation+limited health over an unlimited healing (though with cooldowns) playstyle? Maybe just say what you feel is the most fun and challenging side of the new system? Speaking for yourself that is and your preferences  

(PS: Im asking you as someone who has played the game, not as a Bioware employee if that makes any difference)

 

[finc.loki]

Most of my playtime (probably 95%+) is spent in real time combat mode on normal difficulty when I get a chance to "just play the game."  I have done so recently with a dual wield rogue and a mage.

I just watched the recent stream with Darrah and Laidlaw. Laidlaw played both real time and tactical. He took enough damage to need 4 out of 8 health potions in just two "fights". Being level 3 vs level 4 enemies. It just seems so very punishing. Playing in tactical, at least when he did, didn't even help mitigate the damage.

I do not want an easy game, but it does worries me, being stuck at running "back to camp" to restore party health and replenish potions.

 

Now, I did hear them talk about being able to unlock more potion slots for your character, or even each party member character (I think), if that also means you can dump more health potions in there, that would be helpful, but then again you miss out on others.

 

All in all, I really would have preferred some out of combat heal spell or health regen out of combat. At higher difficulty it makes more sense to have limited potions and so on. 

 

I don't want to end up in limbo of playing normal and being in a constant need of potions  or play casual and it might be too easy. I want some challenge but IN combat, meaning I do not want to go in with low health and be at a disadvantage from start.

Mitigation via barriers do not seem to be all that good, it just temporarily mask low health, as soon as it wears off you are back to being easy bait.

 

Also the level 4 enemies he faced weren't anything else other than plebs, meaning not bosses or anything special and yet he still went from 100% down to 30% health in just 1-2 hits. Automatic potion use needed. Way too squishy with limited means to stay alive.

 

Yes I haven't played the game, but now having seen even developers play the game with inside knowledge and they STILL needed 4 potions in just two insignificant fights, that just screams imbalanced.

 

I will love the game, but it does worry me a lot.

[Allan Schumacher]

If you have the time and you're at liberty to say: could you share some of the pros and cons and the general "feel" over playing a mitigation+limited health over an unlimited healing (though with cooldowns) playstyle? Maybe just say what you feel is the most fun and challenging side of the new system? Speaking for yourself that is and your preferences

(PS: Im asking you as someone who has played the game, not as a Bioware employee if that makes any difference)

 

The biggest difference I notice is simply taking a moment to recognize how I can control the battle.  Sometimes this means having some strong damage dealers open up with powerful attacks to completely take out some targets (utilizing the first strike to take them out before they can put up their own barriers, if that is a risk).  A lot of the time it's simply paying a bit closer attention to "are there other possible combatants that I'm not aware of" as well as "are these guys significantly higher level than me?"  Sometimes it means coming back later.

 

While I can take out a group that is several levels higher than me, it will likely cause me to consume a lot more resources (i.e. potions).  Now if there's a camp location on the otherside, maybe that is worth it.  But if I'm en route to something else and would prefer to not take that risk, I circumvent or look for some way to exploit the battle via terrain or something, or simply come back later (some areas of maps are gated by simply having higher level enemies at a choke point).