I just watched the recent stream with Darrah and Laidlaw. Laidlaw played both real time and tactical. He took enough damage to need 4 out of 8 health potions in just two "fights". Being level 3 vs level 4 enemies. It just seems so very punishing. Playing in tactical, at least when he did, didn't even help mitigate the damage.
Can you point me to the video and the time?
with no healing things are going to become more expensive and at the start of the game you wont have a lot of money to buy potions with, with most games I found that the only time you have the best armor money loot and so forth is towards the end of the game where you have maxed everything, the middle of the game is the grey area where's you only have a so so amount of items and gold.
with no healing things are going to become more expensive and at the start of the game you wont have a lot of money to buy potions with, with most games I found that the only time you have the best armor money loot and so forth is towards the end of the game where you have maxed everything, the middle of the game is the grey area where's you only have a so so amount of items and gold.
You do not need to buy basic healing potions, you just need to return to a camp. You do need to use reagents for the other potions, though depending on the potion you could very well be in large supply (i.e. if it uses elfroot).
The biggest difference I notice is simply taking a moment to recognize how I can control the battle. Sometimes this means having some strong damage dealers open up with powerful attacks to completely take out some targets (utilizing the first strike to take them out before they can put up their own barriers, if that is a risk). A lot of the time it's simply paying a bit closer attention to "are there other possible combatants that I'm not aware of" as well as "are these guys significantly higher level than me?" Sometimes it means coming back later.
While I can take out a group that is several levels higher than me, it will likely cause me to consume a lot more resources (i.e. potions). Now if there's a camp location on the otherside, maybe that is worth it. But if I'm en route to something else and would prefer to not take that risk, I circumvent or look for some way to exploit the battle via terrain or something, or simply come back later (some areas of maps are gated by simply having higher level enemies at a choke point).
Sounds like a lot of emphasis on "tactical", to constantly open it up to scout ahead. Sigh.
Second this whole "enemies higher level and come back to face them later", also not a fan of that. I like to progress in a game and not go backwards to the same area I've been in. I have absolutely NO interest to when I have leveled up to go back to an area I was hours ago to fight some meaningless enemies, yes meaningless if they are just inconsequential enemies standing around, I.E nothing of value can be gained by going there. It just means waste of space in the game.
You also mentioned, that your thinking; "is it worth it to attack them, is there a camp nearby". Yet again just reaffirms my worries that these camp sites and the constant running back to them for potions is going to be a nuisance. Not a smart development strategy to annoy the players.
If some people want a more easy time playing and not feel punished, but still challenged, the solution is not to limit your progress by running back. Stupid artificially increased "difficulty" only adding frustration that even IF or WHEN you beat a hard enemy you are just left with a Phyrric victory because now you're out of potions and your party sit at 25% health. Then the awesome fun time of running back to camp AGAIN comes up. I know it will infuriate me if that is the case.
The more I think about it the more offput I am getting. Seeing that Twitch stream and how he had to chug 4 potions in just 2 insignificant fights was just a "sigh" moment.
Can you point me to the video and the time?
The video Finc.loki refers to is here: http://www.twitch.tv...are/b/576420619
The first fight is at 26:30. The inquisitor has already lost a little health from taking on two wandering, low health enemies. Mr Laidlaw uses one health potion after the fight. The next fight starts at 29:00 or so. He uses two potions after the it and it looks like Cassandra drank a third potion during the fight.
EDIT: (Personally I'm not sure that taking on an equally sized party, each of whom are one level above your party, is an "insignificant fight". I'd guess that he was underleveled for that area. And now that I've rewatched it I can hear that Mr Laidlaw says as much after the first fight.)
Sounds like a lot of emphasis on "tactical", to constantly open it up to scout ahead. Sigh.
Second this whole "enemies higher level and come back to face them later", also not a fan of that. I like to progress in a game and not go backwards to the same area I've been in. I have absolutely NO interest to when I have leveled up to go back to an area I was hours ago to fight some meaningless enemies, yes meaningless if they are just inconsequential enemies standing around, I.E nothing of value can be gained by going there. It just means waste of space in the game.
You also mentioned, that your thinking; "is it worth it to attack them, is there a camp nearby". Yet again just reaffirms my worries that these camp sites and the constant running back to them for potions is going to be a nuisance. Not a smart development strategy to annoy the players.
If some people want a more easy time playing and not feel punished, but still challenged, the solution is not to limit your progress by running back. Stupid artificially increased "difficulty" only adding frustration that even IF or WHEN you beat a hard enemy you are just left with a Phyrric victory because now you're out of potions and your party sit at 25% health. Then the awesome fun time of running back to camp AGAIN comes up. I know it will infuriate me if that is the case.
The more I think about it the more offput I am getting. Seeing that Twitch stream and how he had to chug 4 potions in just 2 insignificant fights was just a "sigh" moment.
Backtracking could be really annoying if the enemies respawn. If I understand corectly you will run into enemies in open world even in areas you have previously cleared, but I guess you can bypass them by using quicktravel.
Can you point me to the video and the time?
http://www.twitch.tv...are/b/576420619
Sure, it starts at 26:30, he talks about preparation etc, drops caltrops and go stealth and attack and he gets hit and go from 100% down to 30%, immediately need to chug a potion. Then they move on and the next fight, now using tactical camera to plan and attack, still lots of damage and in the end just two fights and already down 4 out of 8 potions. That is NOT encouraging, I mean it didn't even help with tactical camera. This is normal mode, it should allow for mistakes.
I am cool with challenging combat, but I want to have health back after a fight so the danger is IN the fight, not feeling forced to run back to camp for potions, are really really poor game mechanic. It's a double punishment and the "mitigation" was pure fail, it goes over too fast and it forces you to use mage in party.
I love everything else I see about the game, combat, story (usually good), big world, crafting, awesome. I hate for it to be marred by a nuisance like this potion debacle.
You do not need to buy basic healing potions, you just need to return to a camp. You do need to use reagents for the other potions, though depending on the potion you could very well be in large supply (i.e. if it uses elfroot).
I have to ask, did you guys really think about this before implementing it?
In what world would it be FUN to run back to camp for potions? You have no other means to get them, you are VERY limited, you cannot regen after combat. Healing spells limited to build up of focus IN combat.
Every single video I have seen just shows the enormous fail of this limitation. I mean we are talking NORMAL game mode. I don't care that some people tossed up videos and they kind of sucked at the game. When I saw actual lead developers like Darrah and Laidlaw that knows the game in and out fail in both real time and tactical and ending up needing 4 out of 8 potions fighting non essential enemies. It scares the crap out of me how infuriating it will be running back to that camp.
Why can't you even find potions in the game world, as loot? So you can replenish that limited amount you can carry.
I can't even begin to imagine the backlash this could have when the vast majority of casual players get their hands on the game. The whole 1 step forward 2 step running back to camp.
I know I sound like a hater right now, I want every developer to know this is my most anticipated game and I love everything else about this.
The video Finc.loki refers to is here: http://www.twitch.tv...are/b/576420619
The first fight is at 26:30. The inquisitor has already lost a little health from taking on two wandering, low health enemies. Mr Laidlaw uses one health potion after the fight. The next fight starts at 29:00 or so. He uses two potions after the it and it looks like Cassandra drank a third potion during the fight.
EDIT: (Personally I'm not sure that taking on an equally sized party, each of whom are one level above your party, is an "insignificant fight". I'd guess that he was underleveled for that area. And now that I've rewatched it I can hear that Mr Laidlaw says as much after the first fight.)
The problem is that I think you will almost always be "underleveled". There haven't been a single video where they are not or sometimes a HUGE amount of underleveled.
Can anyone explain to me why they are underleveled so early and in the general game world. I mean this was just "on the road, near the camp on the way to any imaginable objective".
What do you have to do? Run and hide and slay fennecs until you level up?
Backtracking could be really annoying if the enemies respawn. If I understand corectly you will run into enemies in open world even in areas you have previously cleared, but I guess you can bypass them by using quicktravel.
Even if they don't respawn, how would it not be extremely aggravating running back to the camp you just left, before you can advance again further into the map. Just so you don't feel like you are limited in health and potions, not knowing what lies ahead. There is nothing more infuriating to end up deeper into a map, low on potions and health, coming up against a little mini-boss, having to reload a save or run back to a camp minutes behind you to stock up on potions to then run back to deal with this enemy.
A 2 step forward 1 step back approach.
So casual mode it is then where you might instead face-roll enemies, it seems like it goes from casual to hard in one difficulty mode.
So...you don't like the idea. We can see that. You do also see that others like it which makes it fun for those said other people. There are different people in this world and not everyone is going to like everything. Keep that in mind please and be more polite. If you think an idea is dumb or stupid that is ok, but keep it to yourself and word it better.
Thanks
The problem is that I think you will almost always be "underleveled". There haven't been a single video where they are not or sometimes a HUGE amount of underleveled.
Can anyone explain to me why they are underleveled so early and in the general game world. I mean this was just "on the road, near the camp on the way to any imaginable objective".
What do you have to do? Run and hide and slay fennecs until you level up?
It's a big, openish world with lots of directions to travel in. Think of Fallout: New Vegas - if you travel in the wrong direction you can find yourself in a very scary area less than half an hour away from the starting town. So I guess the solution would be to travel in another direction. Or you could slay fennecs, whatever works 
I wouldn't worry too much about constantly running back to camps either. They seem to be positioned at regular intervals throughout the maps, like checkpoints.
I don't know why people are so scared about the lack of healing. It is not like DAI is going to be impossible to survive or succeed. It will be a game system, and any system can be manipulated and min/maxed. Think about how easy it was to min/max in DAO and DA2. In DAO you could just turn yourself into an infinitely-regenerating disco-ball. In DA2 you could use those harmonic combos to kill everything on the screen. DAI will have its own loopholes and shortcuts and exploits.
I fully expect DAI will be pretty easy to steamroll through once we learn how to use the systems and mechanics to our advantage.
Sounds like a lot of emphasis on "tactical", to constantly open it up to scout ahead. Sigh.
You also mentioned, that your thinking; "is it worth it to attack them, is there a camp nearby". Yet again just reaffirms my worries that these camp sites and the constant running back to them for potions is going to be a nuisance. Not a smart development strategy to annoy the players
If some people want a more easy time playing and not feel punished, but still challenged, the solution is not to limit your progress by running back. Stupid artificially increased "difficulty" only adding frustration that even IF or WHEN you beat a hard enemy you are just left with a Phyrric victory because now you're out of potions and your party sit at 25% health. Then the awesome fun time of running back to camp AGAIN comes up. I know it will infuriate me if that is the case.
The more I think about it the more offput I am getting. Seeing that Twitch stream and how he had to chug 4 potions in just 2 insignificant fights was just a "sigh" moment.
I have to ask, did you guys really think about this before implementing it?
In what world would it be FUN to run back to camp for potions? You have no other means to get them, you are VERY limited, you cannot regen after combat. Healing spells limited to build up of focus IN combat.
At this point you're just being snarky. Yes, we gave it some thought. I do not find the combat overly difficult and I do find it fun.
I do like the idea of this change. I've always wanted some meaningful defensive abilities. I admit, though, that this gameplay video with Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah scares me a bit. Not worried about survival, but about the tedium of having to retread old ground repeatedly after fast-traveling to a camp to restock my potion belt. Mostly, though, I'm scared about how the difficult fights will go if these non-critical ones already result in so much damage.
I'm rather tolerant of sub-optimal combat as long as it's not too difficult, but it appears to me that some more balanacing might be necessary. Take this as neutral feedback. I do want to see this work rather than changed like some others.
The biggest difference I notice is simply taking a moment to recognize how I can control the battle. Sometimes this means having some strong damage dealers open up with powerful attacks to completely take out some targets (utilizing the first strike to take them out before they can put up their own barriers, if that is a risk). A lot of the time it's simply paying a bit closer attention to "are there other possible combatants that I'm not aware of" as well as "are these guys significantly higher level than me?" Sometimes it means coming back later.
While I can take out a group that is several levels higher than me, it will likely cause me to consume a lot more resources (i.e. potions). Now if there's a camp location on the otherside, maybe that is worth it. But if I'm en route to something else and would prefer to not take that risk, I circumvent or look for some way to exploit the battle via terrain or something, or simply come back later (some areas of maps are gated by simply having higher level enemies at a choke point).
This is the point I've been underlining to people and is indicative of the change in approach to combat this game expects. In earlier games you "cleared" areas. In this game you need to decide if its worth doing so. Thsi is even supported in party dialogue. In the Gameplay demo where the Lady Inq was taking on the Avaar, she shouts "More undead". Blackwall responds with "Don't waste time on them, head for the castle".
I like this change. Gives me more purpose that just "moar xp".
I think the only thing that makes me nervous about the difficulty is other people talking about how difficult it looks...
I do like the idea of this change. I've always wanted some meaningful defensive abilities. I admit, though, that this gameplay video with Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah scares me a bit. Not worried about survival, but about the tedium of having to retread old ground repeatedly after fast-traveling to a camp to restock my potion belt. Mostly, though, I'm scared about how the difficult fights will do if these non-critical ones already result in so much damage.
I'm rather tolerant of sub-optimal combat as long as it's not too difficult, but it appears to me that some more balanacing might be necessary. Take this as neutral feedback.
Would it help if I ran through the scene and gave a run down on how long/far I could go before running out of potions? I can't take a video, but if I have the time tomorrow I could run through that area. I'm pretty sure I did the whole area (and it includes mobs that respawn for plot reasons... though for those same plot reasons you can stop the respawning) without actually needing to return to camp. There was one hard area which is related to completing a quest which does involve a series of fights which is typically where I find myself using potions when I play. Although there's a unclaimed camp not far past it so even when I "returned to camp" I was still progressing since I was setting up a new camp and getting fresh potions then. I can restrain myself by only playing as the Inquisitor too (I don't switch very often anyways).
While I have been playing the game which means I won't be raw and new and hence have an idea on what the enemies will do, I don't really consider myself to be doing anything all that ultra tactical while on normal difficulty to keep chugging along. And I do have faith that you will be able to get the hang of effective ways to fight without that much difficulty, even if you don't swap away from the Inquisitor.
Keep in mind that while you play, you're not going to be trying to talk about what you're doing, nor are you going to be inactive while trying to show off what you're doing.
I don't know. I think people are seeing "this is different" and their mind is running along imagining the worst possible scenario because hey, brains are dumb and do that (mine does it too). If I can help assuage the concerns I can, though I can only do it by writing things up.
At the same time, maybe it's something that can only be really understood after playing the game? I might not be able to help convince people (which is okay too)
I think the only thing that makes me nervous about the difficulty is other people talking about how difficult it looks...
Dont let the ignorance of others strike fear in your heart Ajna
I find it amusing how so many people go CRAZY over the "no-healing spells" thing. As if they didnt make other mechanics to substitute. I swear some people are looking for excuses to complain 
Edit: "Looks at own thread title" damn... Im a hippocrite... *Sadface*
Dont let the ignorance of others strike fear in your heart Ajna
I find it amusing how so many people go CRAZY over the "no-healing spells" thing. As if they didnt make other mechanics to substitute. I swear some people are looking for excuses to complain
Edit: "Looks at own thread title" damn... Im a hippocrite... *Sadface*
Koorah Senpai will look after me, but yeah, I think it probably makes others feel anxious too.
Koorah Senpai will look after me, but yeah, I think it probably makes others feel anxious too.
Well multiple devs has already put these concerns to rest so I wouldnt worry too much. Unless you plan to start off DA:I on nightmare mode?
Would it help if I ran through the scene and gave a run down on how long/far I could go before running out of potions? I can't take a video, but if I have the time tomorrow I could run through that area. I'm pretty sure I did the whole area (and it includes mobs that respawn for plot reasons... though for those same plot reasons you can stop the respawning) without actually needing to return to camp. There was one hard area which is related to completing a quest which does involve a series of fights which is typically where I find myself using potions when I play. Although there's a unclaimed camp not far past it so even when I "returned to camp" I was still progressing since I was setting up a new camp and getting fresh potions then. I can restrain myself by only playing as the Inquisitor too (I don't switch very often anyways).
While I have been playing the game which means I won't be raw and new and hence have an idea on what the enemies will do, I don't really consider myself to be doing anything all that ultra tactical while on normal difficulty to keep chugging along. And I do have faith that you will be able to get the hang of effective ways to fight without that much difficulty, even if you don't swap away from the Inquisitor.
Keep in mind that while you play, you're not going to be trying to talk about what you're doing, nor are you going to be inactive while trying to show off what you're doing.
I don't know. I think people are seeing "this is different" and their mind is running along imagining the worst possible scenario because hey, brains are dumb and do that (mine does it too). If I can help assuage the concerns I can, though I can only do it by writing things up.
At the same time, maybe it's something that can only be really understood after playing the game? I might not be able to help convince people (which is okay too)
That's very kind of you Allan, I for one would appreciate this very much. My worries are very similar to Ieldra's. As I've said, it's only when other people mention how difficult it looks that that my anxiety flares up. I think that I'll be okay when I'm actually playing, I learn through doing, but reassurance is always welcome.
Well multiple devs has already put these concerns to rest so I wouldnt worry too much. Unless you plan to start off DA:I on nightmare mode?
Hell no 
It's a big, openish world with lots of directions to travel in. Think of Fallout: New Vegas - if you travel in the wrong direction you can find yourself in a very scary area less than half an hour away from the starting town. So I guess the solution would be to travel in another direction. Or you could slay fennecs, whatever works
Are you talking about the area with bunkers and a giant... creature, by any chance? Because, well, been there, done that. And by "that" I mean dying and being forever traumatized.
This is the point I've been underlining to people and is indicative of the change in approach to combat this game expects. In earlier games you "cleared" areas. In this game you need to decide if its worth doing so. Thsi is even supported in party dialogue. In the Gameplay demo where the Lady Inq was taking on the Avaar, she shouts "More undead". Blackwall responds with "Don't waste time on them, head for the castle".
I like this change. Gives me more purpose that just "moar xp".
I actually wish the companions have a lot of lines like that, because I'm absolutely awful at tactics and planning, and I know it's going to take me a long time to get out of the "kill ALL the enemies" mindset.
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