188 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I think your characters anti chantry views may actually make for more interesting role playing opportunity.

Imagine. Being anti chantry in a devout world is bad enough. But imagine then, that because of events out of your control you have been deemed her Herald by her devotees. Will you just shrug it off? Will you be extra brutal so that people question her wisdom in picking you? Will you say I will be the example of what the chantry should be and not what it isnt?

A lot of role playing is in your motivation. Not in the dialogue you selected.

Absolutely. I'm 100% willing to take up that challenge and let game events influence my character's personality. I would prefer it, however, if I didn't have to deal with this with every character I play. I've done some mental acrobatics to accept "Inquisitor" in spite of its RL connotations and made my peace with it. "Herald of Andraste" takes it one step too far.

[AshesEleven]

I'd prefer to be able to influence if they call me Herald of Whatever or just Inquisitor. I'd also accept my surname.

Playing a character who hates what they're being called is an interesting roleplaying option I'm going to explore, but I'd prefer if the annoyance over this didn't color all of my playthroughs except the one where I play an Inquisitor who embraces it.

 

I don't see how this is different from being the Warden in the first game.  You are forced into it and have no say on what you're called.  It seems that you're just not enjoying the religious aspect of the title.  

[Ieldra]

I don't see how this is different from being the Warden in the first game.  You are forced into it and have no say on what you're called.  It seems that you're just not enjoying the religious aspect of the title.

The Warden doesn't carry an ideology I detest on their back. I'd say that's a very significant difference.

Actually, I am not seeing why people insist I should be ok with this. Would you want to be called a Communist if you actually weren't one? Religious or political, being co-opted by an ideology you detest is something I consider very offensive. I see the typical religious exceptionalism at work. Something's ok that otherwise wouldn't just because it's labeled religious? Not with me.

[Imported_beer]

Absolutely. I'm 100% willing to take up that challenge and let game events influence my character's personality. I would prefer it, however, if I didn't have to deal with this with every character I play. I've done some mental acrobatics to accept "Inquisitor" in spite of its RL connotations and made my peace with it. "Herald of Andraste" takes it one step too far.

Here are some things that I hope will help.

 

1. I feel that the people most likely to call you that will be humans. Think of it this way. Your origin story is a bit fantastic so I'd assume the easiest way for the religious folks to accept it is to link it to their ideology. Humans are going to think you were sent to fix things by their favored religious icon. You cannot change that because it is their nature. However, I am going to assume that dwarves, elves, qunari etc have their own theories as to how you came to be- as it were. So think of it as a "humans only thing".

 

2. There may be safety valves where your discomfort with the title may manifest in your interactions. For example, in DAO you had the chance to dispute the origin story of dark spawn, in DA2 you had the chance to bitterly dispute the chantry's position on magic, and there is no reason to think you won't be able to do it here. Maybe you can also rant about it to your party mates or advisors. Maybe you can have a man executed for spreading the word that you were a herald. You don't know yet if and what "vents" you have. So, no reason to worry too much yet, IMO.

 

3. For extra amusement, think about the position of those humans calling you the herald! If you are a good looking human noble, they are probably ecstatic! You are everything they ever wanted in a herald and are dying to call you that. Imagine however, how disappointed they would be if you were another race or a mage. It is probably cutting them inside too. An elven mage herald? What was Andraste thinking!? How could she choose a bloody Qunari! Andraste got lyrium addled or what to choose a dwarf? I try to imagine things like that to make it more amusing. Whether it works for you or not, is your decision to make.

[AshesEleven]

The Warden doesn't carry an ideology I detest on their back. I'd say that's a very significant difference.

Actually, I am not seeing why people insist I should be ok with this. Would you want to be called a Communist if you actually weren't one? Religious or political, being co-opted by an ideology you detest is something I consider very offensive. I see the typical religious exceptionalism at work. Something's ok that otherwise wouldn't just because it's labeled religious? Not with me.

 

And I don't see why you're making a big fuss.  This presents so many interesting roleplaying opportunities!  You can play as a staunch atheist who detests the title and tries to eliminate all connections to the Chantry!  You can play as an atheist who begrudgingly accepts the title even if he doesn't personally believe!  You can play as someone who hates religion, but as the story progresses gradually comes to learn it has value!  Or you can be vice versa: you start off being a very devout Andrastian but come to hate and despise everything it stands for.  

 

It's not at all comparable to being called a Communist and not being one, since religion and politics are very different beasts.  One is an issue of faith, the other is just plain wrong.  

 

Also, about your "religious exceptionalism" comment.  I think you don't realize that you're doing essentially the same thing but in reverse.  Something's not okay that would be fine if it weren't religious.  

 

I think this is a personal issue of yours, not an issue with the game's story.  The theme of the game has a lot to do with Faith as has been stated, and you will be able to respond to that in the manner which you choose.  

[Mystranna Kelteel]

My concern with this Herald business is that I don't think BioWare will handle it in any amount of depth.

To elaborate, take Hawke. Even if you side with the templars at every opportunity Cassandra will still interrogate Varric thinking you supported and directed the mage rebellion. The game feels like it's actively trying to push you down the mage path while being pro-circle, pro-templar, or generally anti-mage freedom feels like an afterthought to me, like BioWare gave you that choice just for the sake of having choices because we expect choices. The world seems to think Hawke is responsible for or instrumental to the rebellion either way.

Perhaps a better example of what I think BioWare might do is something like they did with Shepard in ME2. Shepard DIES and the game hardly acknowledges it. You're really just supposed to accept it and not ask questions because that's how they wrote the plot ... Yes, one or two characters have lines trying to reassure you that you're still the same person but no depth is given and no attempt to prove it to you is ever made. It's not considered important enough to thoroughly explore.

So, with this Herald thing I am fully expecting BioWare to give us a few throw-away lines about how we don't want to be seen as Andraste's chosen holy icon of the faith, but ultimately the game will continue calling you Herald whether you like it or not and expect you to be okay with the fact that you've already made your feelings clear.

tl:dr
I doubt BioWare has put much effort into exploring your pc's thoughts on being the Herald in order to facilitate a consistent script without a million alternate lines of dialogue. Which is regrettable, but understandable.

Can't expect too much RPing freedom in a narrative like this.

[Tielis]

I understand were you are coming from. It would annoy me to no end if someone starts calling me something that bothers me, and then when I tell them to stop doing it, they just keep going. That can be pretty offensive, actually.

 

Exactly.  My Dalish Inquisitor will ask nicely... once.

[AshesEleven]

My concern with this Herald business is that I don't think BioWare will handle it in any amount of depth.

To elaborate, take Hawke. Even if you side with the templars at every opportunity Cassandra will still interrogate Varric thinking you supported and directed the mage rebellion. The game feels like it's actively trying to push you down the mage path while being pro-circle, pro-templar, or generally anti-mage freedom feels like an afterthought to me, like BioWare gave you that choice just for the sake of having choices because we expect choices. The world seems to think Hawke is responsible for or instrumental to the rebellion either way.

Perhaps a better example of what I think BioWare might do is something like they did with Shepard in ME2. Shepard DIES and the game hardly acknowledges it. You're really just supposed to accept it and not ask questions because that's how they wrote the plot ... Yes, one or two characters have lines trying to reassure you that you're still the same person but no depth is given and no attempt to prove it to you is ever made. It's not considered important enough to thoroughly explore.

So, with this Herald thing I am fully expecting BioWare to give us a few throw-away lines about how we don't want to be seen as Andraste's chosen holy icon of the faith, but ultimately the game will continue calling you Herald whether you like it or not and expect you to be okay with the fact that you've already made your feelings clear.

tl:dr
I doubt BioWare has put much effort into exploring your pc's thoughts on being the Herald in order to facilitate a consistent script without a million alternate lines of dialogue. Which is regrettable, but understandable.

Can't expect too much RPing freedom in a narrative like this.

 

I guess we'll see.  Hopefully this isn't the case but it wouldn't be too surprising.  

[Eterna]

If anything, having the people of Thedas not attribute yourself and actions to their religion because of your sensibilities is immersion breaking. The people of Thedas are a deeply religious people, if you can't handle that then this franchise is not for you. 

[Ieldra]

If anything, having the people of Thedas not attribute yourself and actions to their religion because of your sensibilities is immersion breaking. The people of Thedas are a deeply religious people, if you can't handle that then this franchise is not for you.

I did say it's preference, not a requirement, to be able to tell people not to call me that and have that request mostly followed. That won't change what people believe, most likely, but it will lessen the impression that I'm made complicit in spreading a faith I do not like against my will by fiat of the writers.

As opposed to actually being made a devout Andrastean, or being made to canonically accept the Herald title gladly, which would be important, this is a minor problem. It gets blown up out of proportion by people who insist that I'm wrong for seeing it as problematic at all.

[Muspade]

I want to tell them not to call me "Herald of Andraste". And I would prefer if Bioware made it so that they mostly followed that request. I think that's not an outrageous preference, is it? You wouldn't want to be called what you are not in your own eyes, would you? Of course I'm aware that I ultimately have no control over it.

 

I wouldn't want to be called something I don't like, however what people have heard of me is ultimately out of my control. That you want a feature that stops people from calling you "The herald of Andraste" is strange to me because how will you convince everyone you're not the herald? By failing your objectives? That might help, I suppose or going against the teachings of Andraste might get you some hate, as "Fairbanks" (In the new gameplay video's) briefly scorns the fact that "you" the supposed "Herald" don't believe his information.

You'll have no control of it but it has been said that you can rebuke the title (Or try to.) We'll see.

[Imported_beer]

My concern with this Herald business is that I don't think BioWare will handle it in any amount of depth.

To elaborate, take Hawke. Even if you side with the templars at every opportunity Cassandra will still interrogate Varric thinking you supported and directed the mage rebellion. The game feels like it's actively trying to push you down the mage path while being pro-circle, pro-templar, or generally anti-mage freedom feels like an afterthought to me, like BioWare gave you that choice just for the sake of having choices because we expect choices. The world seems to think Hawke is responsible for or instrumental to the rebellion either way.
 

You could see it that way, but I saw it as very typical of the way people are.

 

If you were a famous person who was present at some pivotal point in history, you become its figure head even if you are not its cause. Think of any important event in history, the famous person was not always the catalyst, but his role in it made him most pivotal in how it was interpreted in history.

 

As for pro-mage, anti-mage, I found both playthroughs interesting because in my anti-mage playthrough, my character looked at what Anders did and thought- see- every mage is one bad day away from being a violent, killing machine. In my pro-mage playthrough, I thought, all mages shouldn't suffer because one mage is psychotic. 

 

I have never played the "mages become this way because they are oppressed" angle yet. 

 

The point though is that not everything you feel, or believe is necessarily going to be represented in a dialogue choice. The things you deem important are not always going to be what the game deems important. However, if the world view fits, broadly, then sometimes you have to let your imagination fill in the blanks because there is no game that intuitive as to be able to respect all motivations. To this day, I find it hard to play MagicHawke (he was my mage) because the idea of him running around in mage-suspicious Kirkwall was too hard. However, I find it incredibly fulfilling to play EpicHawke (my warrior), and let him go either way- pro-mage because of his dad and sister, or anti-mage because he doesn't think magic users are trustworthy, not even his sibling. So, I can accept the world.

 

Of course, if the world view doesn't fit, as in "I don't like it that humans are religious and think a singing chick is the prophet of what is likely David Gaider and I am her Herald" that is completely different problem. However, "I am going to hate being a anti-chantry person in a devoutly religious world and I wonder if the world will reflect my struggle with this title" is a different thing.

[Ieldra]

My concern with this Herald business is that I don't think BioWare will handle it in any amount of depth.

To elaborate, take Hawke. Even if you side with the templars at every opportunity Cassandra will still interrogate Varric thinking you supported and directed the mage rebellion. The game feels like it's actively trying to push you down the mage path while being pro-circle, pro-templar, or generally anti-mage freedom feels like an afterthought to me, like BioWare gave you that choice just for the sake of having choices because we expect choices. The world seems to think Hawke is responsible for or instrumental to the rebellion either way.

Perhaps a better example of what I think BioWare might do is something like they did with Shepard in ME2. Shepard DIES and the game hardly acknowledges it. You're really just supposed to accept it and not ask questions because that's how they wrote the plot ... Yes, one or two characters have lines trying to reassure you that you're still the same person but no depth is given and no attempt to prove it to you is ever made. It's not considered important enough to thoroughly explore.

So, with this Herald thing I am fully expecting BioWare to give us a few throw-away lines about how we don't want to be seen as Andraste's chosen holy icon of the faith, but ultimately the game will continue calling you Herald whether you like it or not and expect you to be okay with the fact that you've already made your feelings clear.

tl:dr
I doubt BioWare has put much effort into exploring your pc's thoughts on being the Herald in order to facilitate a consistent script without a million alternate lines of dialogue. Which is regrettable, but understandable.

Can't expect too much RPing freedom in a narrative like this.

Yeah, that's actually what I expect to happen as well. It's not the end of the world, but it would be annoying. According to the art book, faith and doubt are intended to be main themes of this story. If that's so, it would behoove the writers to not take sides and give equal consideration to skeptics and people of faith, and to do so with a depth that fits the status as a main theme. I am absolutely willing to roleplay both. I will not accept being limited to the faith side.

[Vilegrim]

Wait until the game is out. Then make your judgements.

 

 

 

 

Faith and the chantry are a big part of the world. We only know one person who calls us the herald sao far and Bioware have said we can be completely against the chantry

 

 

no they haven't when I asked to be completely against them, I was told it wasn't possible.

[Tielis]

Yeah, that's actually what I expect to happen as well. It's not the end of the world, but it would be annoying. According to the art book, faith and doubt are intended to be main themes of this story. If that's so, it would behoove the writers to not take sides and give equal consideration to skeptics and people of faith. I am absolutely willing to roleplay both. I will not accept being limited to the faith side.

 

I think if they made it that limiting, why would they have bothered making the elf Dalish-only?  Would it not have been easier to make him/her City Elf only?

[X Equestris]

no they haven't when I asked to be completely against them, I was told it wasn't possible.

I imagine that you can oppose the Chantry's political goals. You just can't obliterate the organization and wipe out all Andrastians, like some people I've seen on these forums desire.

[Muspade]

If it was up to people, they'd kill all three advisors, all nine companions, destroy the inquisition and then just do nothing as everything burns because why not.

[AlanC9]

I've actually been "here" quite a bit longer. That doesn't mean I buy everything Bioware makes. For instance I don't have the NWN games, Jade Empire or SWTOR. You're right that I'm going to stick with a series once I'm in it, but it doesn't go beyond that.

I can see skipping JE and SWTOR, but why NWN? OK, the OC's mostly interesting in the same way that MoO3 is interesting, but the expansions are OK, and there's plenty of good content.

On-topic, are you familiar with the George R.R. Martin short story "The Way of Cross and Dragon"? (SF, despite the title) It's on point.

[Orzammar OG]

I was concerned too, but if you watch all of the gameplay released you'll notice not all of the landmarks have something  to do with Andraste. It's true the one in the first bit of gameplay did, but it was a coincidence.

[PhroXenGold]

I can see skipping JE and SWTOR, but why NWN? OK, the OC's mostly interesting in the same way that MoO3 is interesting, but the expansions are OK, and there's plenty of good content.

 

Bah, skipping JE is far far worse than skipping NWN even taking the latter's player generated content into accout...

[Ieldra]

I think if they made it that limiting, why would they have bothered making the elf Dalish-only?  Would it not have been easier to make him/her City Elf only?

Anyone can be given a token line of protest, which will forever after be ignored by the world and the game.

The thing is, ever since ME1 and excepting DAO, Bioware have become makers of mainstream fiction, and mainstream fiction has always had a pro-faith bias, especially if it originates on the American continent. Just consider how DAI's Big Bad distinguishes himself by rejection of the Maker. It's the first line we hear him speak in the published material. There has also been a tendency for too much movie and too little meaningful roleplaying, culminating in ME3 where it's all too obvious that the writers effectively took away the protagonist from the player. Mike Laidlaw said that they wanted to give the player more freedom in DAI, but I have yet to see that extend to roleplaying.

No, I expect there to be a significant, overpowering pro-faith bias in this story. The only question is whether it's strong enough that it adversely affects my enjoyment of the story. I would love to be proven wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

[pdusen]

The Warden doesn't carry an ideology I detest on their back. I'd say that's a very significant difference.

Actually, I am not seeing why people insist I should be ok with this. Would you want to be called a Communist if you actually weren't one? Religious or political, being co-opted by an ideology you detest is something I consider very offensive. I see the typical religious exceptionalism at work. Something's ok that otherwise wouldn't just because it's labeled religious? Not with me.

 

No, but I imagine I'd learn to live with it if everyone in the world actually thought I was a communist. NPCs do not have perfect knowledge of what your preferences are.

 

I'm just saying, your inquisitor may not want to be called something, but that doesn't mean that the unwashed masses are going to listen.

[Orzammar OG]

Leliana is alive. The maker is real.

 

This is like saying "My grandma recovered from terminal cancer, therefore God." 

 

It's even more muddled since there is healing magic in Thedas.