188 réponses à ce sujet

[Orzammar OG]

Anyone can be given a token line of protest, which will forever after be ignored by the world and the game.

The thing is, ever since ME1 and excepting DAO, Bioware have become makers of mainstream fiction, and mainstream fiction has always had a pro-faith bias, especially if it originates on the American continent. Just consider how DAI's Big Bad distinguishes himself by rejection of the Maker. It's the first line we hear him speak in the published material. There has also been a tendency for too much movie and too little meaningful roleplaying, culminating in ME3 where it's all too obvious that the writers effectively took away the protagonist from the player. Mike Laidlaw said that they wanted to give the player more freedom in DAI, but I have yet to see that extend to roleplaying.

No, I expect there to be a significant, overpowering pro-faith bias in this story. The only question is whether it's strong enough that it adversely affects my enjoyment of the story. I would love to be proven wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

 

The reasons I don't think it will be presenting a "pro-faith" bias as you say is because I think they'll be plenty of people around you who are just as likely to scoff at the idea of the Maker or atleast will be  unconvinced. I mean look at past Dragon Age games. 

 

Morrigan wasn't evil like people like to pretend and she didn't believe. Alistair did believe, but wasn't very devout. Aveline was married to a Templar and still had her doubts about if the Maker was real. Wynne questioned  if it was all allegory. And of course not to mention all the past companions who simply believed in other things.

 

My point is that there is absolutely no reason to assume BioWare is going to push Andrastianism any more than they always have. Yes, it's much more pivotal to the plot this time, but that's natural. Believe me, I don't want my character put in a position of having to be the head of a monotheistic religion either, but I've got to assume BioWare will present me with options so that at least my companions and advisors know my position. If I have to be diplomatic with the people of the world, I'll deal with that as it happens.

[Ieldra]

I can see skipping JE and SWTOR, but why NWN? OK, the OC's mostly interesting in the same way that MoO3 is interesting, but the expansions are OK, and there's plenty of good content.

I didn't buy NWN(1) when it came out because the controls were so much more limited than in the IE games, and I never got into it later when it appeared the content might be worth it. Besides, if I decided to get one of Bioware's games I don't yet have, I'd get JE for its unusual setting, except that I hear they - again - didn't give more than token consideration to the less popular path.

On-topic, are you familiar with the George R.R. Martin short story "The Way of Cross and Dragon"? (SF, despite the title) It's on point.

I have read some of GRRM's SF stories. "A Song for Lya" stands out in my mind, but I don't know "The Way of Cross and Dragon". Is it available anywhere?

[Ieldra]

I'm just saying, your inquisitor may not want to be called something, but that doesn't mean that the unwashed masses are going to listen.

Of course not. However, how they do react is decided by the writers, and I would prefer it if they made them mostly heed my request, except for the few inevitable hardheads you always have.

[Ieldra]

The reasons I don't think it will be presenting a "pro-faith" bias as you say is because I think they'll be plenty of people around you who are just as likely to scoff at the idea of the Maker or atleast will be  unconvinced. I mean look at past Dragon Age games. 
 
Morrigan wasn't evil like people like to pretend and she didn't believe. Alistair did believe, but wasn't very devout. Aveline was married to a Templar and still had her doubts about if the Maker was real. Wynne questioned  if it was all allegory. And of course not to mention all the past companions who simply believed in other things.
 
My point is that there is absolutely no reason to assume BioWare is going to push Andrastianism any more than they always have. Yes, it's much more pivotal to the plot this time, but that's natural. Believe me, I don't want my character put in a position of having to be the head of a monotheistic religion either, but I've got to assume BioWare will present me with options so that t least my companions and advisors know my position. If I have to be diplomatic with the people of the world, I'll deal with that as it happens.

You make a few good points. DAO does not count because it's from another era, but let me put this into perspective:

In your typical mainstream story, Morrigan would turn Andrastean in DAI or die. If she still scoffs at the idea of the Maker in DAI and does not die, I'll concede the point. I would probably accept "She's silent about the topic and evidence indicates she hasn't changed" as valid.

There. We have a testable hypothesis. Now let the game come.

[Kantr]

What RPG's are all about faith?

 

Bioware arent suddenly going to change Morrigan to believe in the maker (or I hope they havent) DA:O may be 5 years old and the events happening about 10 years ago from the setting  it's not from a different era though.

[ziloe]

I can roleplay a devout Andrastean, but I don't want that. Above all, I don't want to be *limited* to that. Also, my dislike of religions is specific, focused on expansionist religions with authoritarian father figures as gods. I might not care much for any religion, but I don't actively dislike all of them and would be much more ok with things if Andrasteanism was different.

Having said that, the signs appear to be just landmarks with random text, and I've been told we can choose our banners. So there may not be significant problems for me after all.

But that is you, based on real world experience. This is a fantasy video game. The whole idea behind the expansion in Thedas, is that they believe that's the only way the Maker will come back. Yes, it's typical of religions to make stories like that, but this is a fantasy world where literally, your character can speak to a dude stuck in a glass box, who's been dead for over a thousand years. So really, in the end, who's to say the Maker wouldn't? This isn't the real world, where magic doesn't exist. And you don't have to pick those things if you don't want to. They are there for those who do.

Either way, I'm sorry if I'm being harsh here, but it's tiring because it's the same reason people want to kill off Leliana and are so upset she's alive in DA2, because they didn't like a religious character in their game. They were so offended, they wanted to kill her off. And to me, that's messed up.

I mean really, this bit of content doesn't even come close to the level of backlash the ME series experienced. One is a potential sidequest that may or may not affect a bit of the Inquisition's power, and the other is an ending that ignored everything we invested in for the last three games.

[AlanC9]

I have read some of GRRM's SF stories. "A Song for Lya" stands out in my mind, but I don't know "The Way of Cross and Dragon". Is it available anywhere?

I just remembered that Omni Magazine issues are available online from the Internet Archive. Here you go.

[Ieldra]

What RPG's are all about faith?

Well, what about those who let their Big Bad's first spoken line be about rejecting the god of the dominant faith, which is mostly presented as good if prone to human imperfections like any other, thereby making this rejection a defining characteristic of the Big Bad?

Bioware arent suddenly going to change Morrigan to believe in the maker (or I hope they havent)

We shall see.

[AshesEleven]

Well, what about those who let their Big Bad's first spoken line be about rejecting the god of the dominant faith, which is mostly presented as good if prone to human imperfections like any other, thereby making this rejection a defining characteristic of the Big Bad?

 

 

He was asking for other RPGs, not this one.  Can you provide another example?  

 

Or actually I may have misunderstood you and you were talking about another game, in which case please provide a name so we know what you're talking about  

[ziloe]

He was asking for other RPGs, not this one.  Can you provide another example?  

 

Or actually I may have misunderstood you and you were talking about another game, in which case please provide a name so we know what you're talking about

I think she's talking about "The Wolf Among Us." The Big Bad Wolf is the main character, and he's a detective.

[AshesEleven]

I think she's talking about "The Wolf Among Us." The Big Bad Wolf is the main character, and he's a detective.

 

Is that game about faith?  I thought it was like a game of "Werewolf"  

 

Shows what I know.  

[wcholcombe]

Of course not. However, how they do react is decided by the writers, and I would prefer it if they made them mostly heed my request, except for the few inevitable hardheads you always have.

Uneducated masses have always prescribed supernatural explanations for things they don't understand.  In DAO people said you were sent by the maker or andraste whether you were of the faith or not, the same will occur in DAI, because that is the nature of the unwashed masses.  The Dalish may say that Fen' hrael or one of their gods sent you or guides your steps. Thedas is a place of faith, people will naturally put their chosen diety or faith as responsible for you whether you say so or not.  Its the way faith works.  Something good happens, you thank your diety, something bad happens you ask why.

 

Well, what about those who let their Big Bad's first spoken line be about rejecting the god of the dominant faith, which is mostly presented as good if prone to human imperfections like any other, thereby making this rejection a defining characteristic of the Big Bad?

We shall see.

We actually don't know the context of that voice over.  For all we know he was speaking to the Divine right before blowing her and everyone at the temple to smithereens.  It also wouldn't be that hard for that voice over to be dependent upon what you do in the game.  If you don't prescribe to the Maker, I wouldn't see any reason for the Elder One to mock you about it.

 

I don't think the elder one is speaking to the Inquisitor at that point, it is just the way it looks in the trailer.

[Tielis]

Anyone can be given a token line of protest, which will forever after be ignored by the world and the game.

The thing is, ever since ME1 and excepting DAO, Bioware have become makers of mainstream fiction, and mainstream fiction has always had a pro-faith bias, especially if it originates on the American continent. Just consider how DAI's Big Bad distinguishes himself by rejection of the Maker. It's the first line we hear him speak in the published material. There has also been a tendency for too much movie and too little meaningful roleplaying, culminating in ME3 where it's all too obvious that the writers effectively took away the protagonist from the player. Mike Laidlaw said that they wanted to give the player more freedom in DAI, but I have yet to see that extend to roleplaying.

No, I expect there to be a significant, overpowering pro-faith bias in this story. The only question is whether it's strong enough that it adversely affects my enjoyment of the story. I would love to be proven wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you.  But the Dalish have their own gods, and one of my Dalish Inquisitors will be deeply religious in that way.  I am really hoping that she will not be steamrolled by Andrasteans.  

[Ieldra]

But that is you, based on real world experience. This is a fantasy video game. The whole idea behind the expansion in Thedas, is that they believe that's the only way the Maker will come back. Yes, it's typical of religions to make stories like that, but this is a fantasy world where literally, your character can speak to a dude stuck in a glass box, who's been dead for over a thousand years. So really, in the end, who's to say the Maker wouldn't? This isn't the real world, where magic doesn't exist. And you don't have to pick those things if you don't want to. They are there for those who do.

Either way, I'm sorry if I'm being harsh here, but it's tiring because it's the same reason people want to kill off Leliana and are so upset she's alive in DA2, because they didn't like a religious character in their game. They were so offended, they wanted to kill her off. And to me, that's messed up.
I mean really, this bit of content doesn't even come close to the level of backlash the ME series experienced. One is a potential sidequest that may or may not affect a bit of the Inquisition's power, and the other is an ending that ignored everything we invested in for the last three games.

As I have repeatedly said, the applicability to the real world is very much the point here. Otherwise they wouldn't have made Andrasteanism as it is. If a fictional ideology shares features I dislike with a real-world one, why the heck would I suddenly dislike the fictional one less? This is not about belief but about authoritarianism. How do I make myself clear? Perhaps like this: If the Maker existed, he wouldn't deserve worship, let's leave it at that to avoid the much, much harsher words I have just deleted.

And btw, I would never kill a character over that.

[Ieldra]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you.  But the Dalish have their own gods, and one of my Dalish Inquisitors will be deeply religious in that way.  I am really hoping that she will not be steamrolled by Andrasteans.  

Yeah, I hope that as well. My Dalish won't be like that, but she will want to have her people's mythology respected.

[wcholcombe]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you.  But the Dalish have their own gods, and one of my Dalish Inquisitors will be deeply religious in that way.  I am really hoping that she will not be steamrolled by Andrasteans.  

 well there is a book you read by a human saying he doesn't believe the chantry history on the March on the dales and is determined to show the truth or what have you. Its in the video without commentary in the villa.

 

So while I disagree with the viewpoint presented in that book, it shows that they the game doesn't just present the andrastian point of view. Also one of the statues has a bit by a revered mother who seems to be condemning the treatment of the elves and such with the fall of the dales.

 

So at the very least without seeing any dalish at all, we are seeing both pro and anti Chantry  view points.

[Ieldra]

I just remembered that Omni Magazine issues are available online from the Internet Archive. Here you go.

Thanks. GRRM never disappoints. Very much worth reading. Better readable on this site though.

I may end up infusing my main Inquisitor with the essence of the last few lines of this story.

[frankf43]

I was turned off from playing humans because you are forced, by your family to support the Chantry at the beginning of the game, with many family members in the priesthood or templars. I don't want my family to have anything to do with the Chantry.

[Equalitas]

I thought the Inquisition was a new group that existed a long long time ago that you recreate with your own set of rules.  And you decide who you want to support. And if you support the chantry they prolly gives you a name like Herald of Andraste. Wonder what the dalish will call you or the dwarfs. PARAGOTUM or something =))

[dekarserverbot]

I just watched the new gameplay video.

I've always had concerns about being forced to be supportive of southern Thedas' dominant religion, ever since the game's title was announced.

Then there was this "Herald of Andraste" business. Even if I can roleplay against it, I'd dislike spending the whole game detesting what other people call me.

Now it appears every time I claim an area, I'll put down a sign inscribed with a line that easily makes it into the top 3 of my reasons why I dislike this religion. Apparently, I'll help spread the faith whether I want it or not. Even if it's just symbolism, the message doesn't lose any impact.

Well, there's no way to be polite about this. If this happens, DAI will be a disaster of ME3-like proportions for me personally. And since this will be the second time in a row Bioware has attached messages I detest to my character without giving me any choice about it, I'll be wary of getting invested in Bioware franchises again in the future. It would be a shame. I love the world and the stories told in it. But if Bioware continues to define my protagonists for me in ways I hate, ultimately they're goling to lose me.

From one moment to the other, I've changed from pleasant anticipation to trepidation. This is all too much like the ME3 story...

 

you sound like if they were forcing you to play "another Hawke" instead of you... from what i have seen is not going to be like that again... or at least it seems so.

You can choose even to favor the dales, being hostile against the chantry or the graywardens and such... don't let a missconception of just a choice (that we didn't see what triggered it anyways) define your expectations. But neither keep your guard down.

Personally, if you are right i will just refund this inquisition game and no longer support bioware in anyway from now, i will pretend that DAO ended in Warden passing through the mirror and never look back

[Ieldra]

I was turned off from playing humans because you are forced, by your family to support the Chantry at the beginning of the game, with many family members in the priesthood or templars. I don't want my family to have anything to do with the Chantry.

Not if you play a mage. Then you're sent to the Circle instead and attend the conclave representing the mages with a history of having fought templars to defend your life during the rebellions on top of it. No mention is made of your family having many members who serve the Chantry.

 

Apart from that, you don't choose your family, in RL as in fiction, and as we see with Sebastian, it's rather common that the third child of a noble family is sent to the Chantry, not necessarily out of any loyalty but because of political expediency. What matters is that I'm not forced to support Andrasteanism and the Chantry while I'm controlling the character. If I can do something to curb its influence, all the better but that's not a requirement.

 

On the other hand, if people keep callng me Herald of Andraste I just know that my grumpiness over that will transfer over to my characters, most of the time, and then I want options to reflect that. Well, maybe with the exception of one of my mages who thinks that if people are prepared to call a mage Herald of Andraste, perhaps it's the better idea to let them.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Depends on the character you create really, whether or not it makes sense for him/her to believe in the Maker and follow the religious principles of HUMANS in Thedas. A qunari, elf, or dwarf would really have no reason to buy into that religion or prosthelytize it around the world (obviously depending on their upbringing) and I really don't see Bioware forcing those three races to simply accept the Maker in order to complete the main story. I believe both DAO and DA2 allowed the protagonist to be an atheist and/or an agnostic (definitely DAO).

 

I don't think this story is about religious crusading tbh. Not for the good guys anyway, seems the Elder One enjoys calling himself a God. Nothing release so far has given me cause to worry about my Inquisitor being a religious zealot or even a believer.

 

I'm not personally against religion at all, but I can see why it would worry someone who really wanted to play as a realistic qunari or dwarf with completely separate beliefs.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  It's an entirely different topic - but I think all art in general has a sort of baseline "pro-faith" bias.

 

Art is feeling - when you examine the world with feeling, you tend to ascribe to it importance beyond what science can measure. 

 

At any rate - I still honestly don't think you're going to have an issue. 

 

On topic - it's interesting that your Dalish character will defend her mythology.  Why is that when you are (notoriously?) Anti-Chantry?  Is it an underdog thing?

[AlanC9]

Thanks. GRRM never disappoints. Very much worth reading. Better readable on this site though.

True, but you can't see those fabulous 1979 ads there Or that ridiculous Omni typeface (nobody ever accused Guccione of having good taste.)

Thanks for the Lightspeed link.