188 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

As I have repeatedly said, the applicability to the real world is very much the point here. Otherwise they wouldn't have made Andrasteanism as it is. If a fictional ideology shares features I dislike with a real-world one, why the heck would I suddenly dislike the fictional one less? This is not about belief but about authoritarianism. How do I make myself clear? Perhaps like this: If the Maker existed, he wouldn't deserve worship, let's leave it at that to avoid the much, much harsher words I have just deleted.

And btw, I would never kill a character over that.

 

Here's the thing, you're not the only one who has complained about this, and while you may personally not want to kill off Leliana, there are plenty of people hoping they can. That said, the developers have made it very clear that you can choose how you respond. But somehow, people won't ever be happy until religion is removed all together.

Yes, the faith is reminiscent of real world faith and Andraste is inspired by Joan D'ark, but that shouldn't matter because the writers reach for places of the real world as inspiration. The difference is, that in this fantasy world, these things could very well have happened as opposed to just being stories. Yes, the characters have their doubts, but they live in a world where magic is the norm, and so they don't have reason to question it. That's just daily life to them.

That said, the problem with your original argument, was that it claimed that the choice of having faith in this game, in whatever shape or form it comes in, is as disastrous as the choices the developers made for the ME series, and that doesn't even come close to the same situation whatsoever.

[Ganzevort]

*snip*

Now it appears every time I claim an area, I'll put down a sign inscribed with a line that easily makes it into the top 3 of my reasons why I dislike this religion. Apparently, I'll help spread the faith whether I want it or not. Even if it's just symbolism, the message doesn't lose any impact.

*snip*

 

Spoiler

Well based on one of the gameplay videos Hrungr shared (as well as what other people said) it seems that you can choose the sign inscribed when you claim an area. That symbol isn't Chantry based right?

[Ieldra]

That said, the problem with your original argument, was that it claimed that the choice of having faith in this game, in whatever shape or form it comes in, is as disastrous as the choices the developers made for the ME series, and that doesn't even come close to the same situation whatsoever.

I didn't claim that. It is the *absence* of choice about character-defining personality traits like faith or its absence, or actions that implied such like spreading the faith with no choice about it, which I would find disastrous. And this was exactly what made ME3 such a disaster for me personally, rather than the ending, which certainly didn't help but wasn't the main problem.

[Ieldra]

Well based on one of the gameplay videos Hrungr shared (as well as what other people said) it seems that you can choose the sign inscribed when you claim an area. That symbol isn't Chantry based right?

Yes. That's why I changed the topic title. I'm still not exactly confident about how we'll be able to distance ourselves from the Chantry and Andrasteanism, but we'll see.

To explain how my initial impression emerged, consider this:

I had been spending some time worrying about whether the game's title indicated I was to support the Chantry and its faith with no choice about it. Bioware came out and said it wasn't the case, and after some deliberation I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Then this "Herald of Andraste" thing came up. Again, Bioware said we could roleplay against that but this time, that was not good enough, since it still left the possibility open that we'll spread the faith by our actions regardless of how we think about it, and that is something that would taint the whole story for me. I'm still not convinced it won't happen.

Then the first uncensored gameplay video came up, meaning the first one not carefully produced by Bioware to include the things they wanted to show and nothing else, and what do I see within the first minute: the Inquisitor is plonking down a banner, and a text comes up with the quote from the Chant saying the Maker will come back once the Chant is sung from all corners of the world.

So yeah, it was just bad luck that showed me this landmark first, rather than another one, but it wouldn't have made me go up the wall immediately if it didn't fit an emerging picture that, well, let's phrase this carefully, doesn't exactly fit my story preferences and was indicative of limiting my ability to shape my character in the worst possible way imaginable - by making my protagonist spread an ideology I detest.

Well, I'll see in a few weeks. I would rather like to be proven wrong. I also regret the loss of my state of pleasant anticipation.

[Ieldra]

On topic - it's interesting that your Dalish character will defend her mythology.  Why is that when you are (notoriously?) Anti-Chantry?  Is it an underdog thing?

She'll not believe in the literal truth of elven mythology either, but I find parts of it appealing. The only god left in the world is a capricious trickster. I think that's a rather apt allegory for how we experience the world. Also, this mythology lacks the aspects which make me dislike Andrasteanism, namely the authoritarian father figure as a god and the focus on expansion and obedience. For all that "The people bend their knees too easily" (Flemeth in DA2), they appear to have a much healthier attitude towards their gods.

I don't quite know if the underdog thing is a part of it. I'm actually not all in agreement with the opinion that a culture necessarily needs preserving, except in form of historical knowledge. If elven culture will fade, it will. However, the means by which this happens are important, i.e. violence versus memetic domination, and preserving the knowledge of your culture - as opposed to the attempt to keep people living by it for the sake of identity - is always a worthy undertaking.

[Farci Reprimer]

I really dont understand all your fuss over the fact that inquisitor and his/her organisation´s power may be heavily tied to the power of Chantry leldra.

 

Really I dont. I understand your strong opinions about Chantry and religions in general and you want to make your character detest everything related to them but.....

So what?

 

If there is a massive hole in the sky capable of destroying the world you probably need all the help you can get. Priorities first right?

The Chantry just happens to be the most influential force in Ferelden and Orlais. Love it or hate it, it is a fact. Exalted marches prove that Andrastism is something people of Thedas will easiest get behind in case of emercancy.

It is not something Inquisitor can just ignore and spit heavy snots in the direction of Chantry when he/she tries to save the world. Agnostic or no thats just common sense.

 

It is only logical in the situation like that in DAI, to make himself/herself a symbol for Chantry´s ideology to get the necessary power to defeat the evil demons. Call it a necessary evil if you want, grind your teeth over it with your character, but probably the whole thing just is an only way available for inquisitor to be succesful against his/her enemies.

Beggars cant really choose right? Especially if you truly are just a nameless guy with the glowing hand at the start of the story. Chantry is your best bet to get the regognition you need.

 

Think of it all this way leldra.

If in DAO the warden treaties would have been instead some documeted promised support for Chantry in case of the Blight and it would have been only way for your agnostic warden, would it been so bad? Of course not! Because the whole point of gathering an army in DAO was that it had to be done with any means necassary. All else was kinda secondary

The treaties in DAO are just as much just means to an end as the allienge with the big and evil Chantry.

 

In medieval europe pretty much all great organisations had to be tied to church. Medical, science, you name it. Not beacuse they liked it, but because church was the dominant power that couldnt be ignored or made enemy.

They made a small compromise and that compromise very likely speeded our civilazitions progress in the end. Science prevailed only when it was strong enough to challenge the religion. Before that it had to bow to its master and act submissive.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I kinda wonder why a dev doesent just jump in on a thread like this saying "You wont be forced into representing a religious figure" and help the OP by resolving the thread in its infancy. Unless ofcourse:

A) The concerns of the OP is real
B ) They enjoy watching the discussion unfold

Confirming or denying this would hardly be even a minor spoiler

[Ieldra]

@Farci:
There is a difference between allying for political expediency and helping to spread the faith. Doing the former is natural. Doing the latter feels like betraying myself. I'd rather put on the mask of a merciless tyrant and go down in history as that, if that's what it takes to avoid being complicit in spreading a faith I detest. That will make my Inquisitor a tragic figure, not exactly a pleasant outcome, but preferable to the alternative.

As for having no pull, well, that's not true. I'm the only one with the glowing hand, that gives me a rather strong bargaining position. I may not be able to walk away because that would mean abandoning the game, but I can certainly threaten to do that if my demands aren't met. If the writers let me.

Maybe I'll restrict myself to mages, though. When people are prepared to call a mage "Herald of Andraste", that's unusual enough that I can roleplay acting towards a reform of the faith. That won't remove the core elements I don't like, but it can be seen as a net improvement.

Edit:
What I would accept was a setup like this: a representative of the Chantry approaches us and offers to support our cause by spreading the word that the Inquisitor is the Herald of Andraste. I can reject or accept that offer. In that case, I would consider accepting, depending on the kind of character I play. The point is that it's my choice.

[Ieldra]

double post deleted

[Farci Reprimer]

As for having no pull, well, that's not true. I'm the only one with the glowing hand, that gives me a rather strong bargaining position.

 

Strong? No not really.

If the Chantry sees you as a threat and they are desperate enough, what is stopping them from simply cutting off your hand and using it themselves?

Not much methinks.

(By the way I call the prediction that the inquisitors hand will be cut off at some point regardless. Because the power is in the mark, not in the hand itself)

[Vilegrim]

I really dont understand all your fuss over the fact that inquisitor and his/her organisation´s power may be heavily tied to the power of Chantry leldra.

 

Really I dont. I understand your strong opinions about Chantry and religions in general and you want to make your character detest everything related to them but.....

So what?

 

If there is a massive hole in the sky capable of destroying the world you probably need all the help you can get. Priorities first right?

The Chantry just happens to be the most influential force in Ferelden and Orlais. Love it or hate it, it is a fact. Exalted marches prove that Andrastism is something people of Thedas will easiest get behind in case of emercancy.

It is not something Inquisitor can just ignore and spit heavy snots in the direction of Chantry when he/she tries to save the world. Agnostic or no thats just common sense.

 

It is only logical in the situation like that in DAI, to make himself/herself a symbol for Chantry´s ideology to get the necessary power to defeat the evil demons. Call it a necessary evil if you want, grind your teeth over it with your character, but probably the whole thing just is an only way available for inquisitor to be succesful against his/her enemies.

Beggars cant really choose right? Especially if you truly are just a nameless guy with the glowing hand at the start of the story. Chantry is your best bet to get the regognition you need.

 

Think of it all this way leldra.

If in DAO the warden treaties would have been instead some documeted promised support for Chantry in case of the Blight and it would have been only way for your agnostic warden, would it been so bad? Of course not! Because the whole point of gathering an army in DAO was that it had to be done with any means necassary. All else was kinda secondary

The treaties in DAO are just as much just means to an end as the allienge with the big and evil Chantry.

 

In medieval europe pretty much all great organisations had to be tied to church. Medical, science, you name it. Not beacuse they liked it, but because church was the dominant power that couldnt be ignored or made enemy.

They made a small compromise and that compromise very likely speeded our civilazitions progress in the end. Science prevailed only when it was strong enough to challenge the religion. Before that it had to bow to its master and act submissive.

 

 

Then Thedas burns.  I would rather the world go down in flames than one more person submits to the evil of the chantry.

[Ieldra]

Then Thedas burns.  I would rather the world go down in flames than one more person submits to the evil of the chantry.

Then you put your personal ideology before the fate of the world. Regardless of how much I dislike the Chantry and its ideology, I could never do that. If it was the Qun, maybe, but then domination by the Qun isn't any better than domination by the Elder One.

[frankf43]

I really dont understand all your fuss over the fact that inquisitor and his/her organisation´s power may be heavily tied to the power of Chantry leldra.

 

Really I dont. I understand your strong opinions about Chantry and religions in general and you want to make your character detest everything related to them but.....

So what?

 

If there is a massive hole in the sky capable of destroying the world you probably need all the help you can get. Priorities first right?

The Chantry just happens to be the most influential force in Ferelden and Orlais. Love it or hate it, it is a fact. Exalted marches prove that Andrastism is something people of Thedas will easiest get behind in case of emercancy.

It is not something Inquisitor can just ignore and spit heavy snots in the direction of Chantry when he/she tries to save the world. Agnostic or no thats just common sense.

 

It is only logical in the situation like that in DAI, to make himself/herself a symbol for Chantry´s ideology to get the necessary power to defeat the evil demons. Call it a necessary evil if you want, grind your teeth over it with your character, but probably the whole thing just is an only way available for inquisitor to be succesful against his/her enemies.

Beggars cant really choose right? Especially if you truly are just a nameless guy with the glowing hand at the start of the story. Chantry is your best bet to get the regognition you need.

 

Think of it all this way leldra.

If in DAO the warden treaties would have been instead some documeted promised support for Chantry in case of the Blight and it would have been only way for your agnostic warden, would it been so bad? Of course not! Because the whole point of gathering an army in DAO was that it had to be done with any means necassary. All else was kinda secondary

The treaties in DAO are just as much just means to an end as the allienge with the big and evil Chantry.

 

In medieval europe pretty much all great organisations had to be tied to church. Medical, science, you name it. Not beacuse they liked it, but because church was the dominant power that couldnt be ignored or made enemy.

They made a small compromise and that compromise very likely speeded our civilazitions progress in the end. Science prevailed only when it was strong enough to challenge the religion. Before that it had to bow to its master and act submissive.

 

 

If the only way to save Thedas from The Old One is to support Mage slavery and abuse then I say he can have the world.

[Super Drone]

If the only way to save Thedas from The Old One is to support Mage slavery and abuse then I say he can have the world.

 

Yeah! screw those millions of other innocent people who never did anything wrong and will die! Mages are the only real people anyway, amirite? Serves those filthy mundanes right for not acknowledging that their safety and happiness is worth nothing compared to all-mighty, flawless and all-deserving Mages!

[Ceoldoren]

It'd be weird if they forced you to be an Andraste Follower when the diverse races are not followers? Pretty sure just because of that you can squash any religious conception people try to force on your inquisitor.

 

Logic would dictate that your worries are based on nothing. Also, as it's been mentioned before, many videos / twitters / etc / it's been said that you can rp against the chantry or go along with it. Same with the Herald title.

Ok, I know this is old, but isn't the Dwarf inquisitor likely to be an atheist or an Andraste Follower ? I'm pretty sure they've lived their entire life on the surface. I doubt they would worship the paragons.

[PhroXenGold]

Yeah! screw those millions of other innocent people who never did anything wrong and will die! Mages are the only real people anyway, amirite? Serves those filthy mundanes right for not acknowledging that their safety and happiness is worth nothing compared to all-mighty, flawless and all-deserving Mages!

 

I do find the obsession with "freeing mages" hillarious. Even given the existence of the Circles, mages still live a hell of a lot better lives than the vast majority of people on Thedas, who are tied to the land as subsistence farmers with no effective freedom. And that's not even touching on groups like the elves...

[Ieldra]

Can we not turn this thread into another mage debate?

[frankf43]

Yeah! screw those millions of other innocent people who never did anything wrong and will die! Mages are the only real people anyway, amirite? Serves those filthy mundanes right for not acknowledging that their safety and happiness is worth nothing compared to all-mighty, flawless and all-deserving Mages!

They don't exist they are only fictional. The thing I am saying is, that if my two options are become the Herald of Andraste or not buy the game, I won't buy the game. There are plenty of good games coming out this fall that I don't have to play as the Herald of a religion I find abhorrent.

 

I have no problem with the idea religion in general, it's the practices of this one in particular that I am not prepared to support. And it's not only the way they treat mages that I have a problem with. They completely destroyed the Elven Nation of The Dales. What they did to the Elves during the Exaulted March is tantamount to genocide. Then they  forced the remaining elves to either be sub-servant to them or wander around in small packs hiding from their Templars. 

[Ceoldoren]

Can we not turn this thread into another mage debate?

A debate on the Andrastian faith will always turn, at least partially, into an argument about mages. Happens every time..

[Ceoldoren]

They don't exist they are only fictional. The thing I am saying is, that if my two options are become the Herald of Andraste or not buy the game, I won't buy the game. There are plenty of good games coming out this fall that I don't have to play as the Herald of a religion I find abhorrent.

 

I have no problem with the idea religion in general, it's the practices of this one in particular that I am not prepared to support. And it's not only the way they treat mages that I have a problem with. They completely destroyed the Elven Nation of The Dales. What they did to the Elves during the Exaulted March is tantamount to genocide. Then they  forced the remaining elves to either be sub-servant to them or wander around in small packs hiding from their Templars. 

It's been said numerous times that you don't have to support the chantry or accept the title. What exactly is the issue ?

[Ieldra]

It's been said numerous times that you don't have to support the chantry or accept the title. What exactly is the issue ?

The issue is that people don't believe that, or that this "not being forced to support" may consist of a token line of displeasure and making you support the Chantry by implication anyway. I mean, like "You can roleplay against the Alliance in ME3". Yeah right. Not that this would've made sense in ME3 as it was, but when people heard this, it was before release and they believed there would be a meaningful way to do that while still following the main objective.

DA hasn't got a history like that, but it makes you wary, especially since the potential problem is much more virulent in DAI.

[frankf43]

It's been said numerous times that you don't have to support the chantry or accept the title. What exactly is the issue ?

I was replying to a post by Farci  that said the only logical option is to become the symbol of the Chantry. All I am saying is if I have to play as the Herald I wont play. I am going to get the EA pass on Xbone and play that for a while and see if I am forced to take up the title. If I am I wont buy the game no matter how good it plays. If I don't have to and the game is good then I will buy the game.

 

I've also said that I won't play as human because their close ties with the Chantry.

[PhroXenGold]

They don't exist they are only fictional. The thing I am saying is, that if my two options are become the Herald of Andraste or not buy the game, I won't buy the game. There are plenty of good games coming out this fall that I don't have to play as the Herald of a religion I find abhorrent.

 

I have no problem with the idea religion in general, it's the practices of this one in particular that I am not prepared to support. And it's not only the way they treat mages that I have a problem with. They completely destroyed the Elven Nation of The Dales. What they did to the Elves during the Exaulted March is tantamount to genocide. Then they  forced the remaining elves to either be sub-servant to them or wander around in small packs hiding from their Templars. 

 

Given that the causes of the events that lead up to the Exalted March against the Dales are still highly disputed and not at all clear, there might well have been a very good reason for it.

 

It might well have been self defense in the face of Elven aggression. And if you are being threatened, then it only makes sense to ensure your enemy is left in no fit state to ever threaten you again.

 

Alternatively, the Exalted March could well have been based on entirely political reasons, with the Andrastean faith just used to give it a faint gloss of respectability. In which case, blame the rulers an policiticians who twisted it, not the religion itself.

 

And, c'mon, you say you're "not against religion" yet are completely opposed to the Andrastean faith based on things no different from that done in the name of pretty much every religion in human history?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I have no problem with the idea religion in general, it's the practices of this one in particular that I am not prepared to support. And it's not only the way they treat mages that I have a problem with. They completely destroyed the Elven Nation of The Dales. What they did to the Elves during the Exaulted March is tantamount to genocide. Then they  forced the remaining elves to either be sub-servant to them or wander around in small packs hiding from their Templars.

Yes, how dare the Chantry defend themselves when the elven armies of the Dales took advantage of the 2nd blights aftermath to start a war with the intention of conquering Orlais AKA the heart of the religion

[KoorahUK]

I didn't want to join the Cerberus terrorist organisation during ME2. Glad I didn't rage quit when i found out, I'd have missed out on one of the best games I've ever played. 

I am reminded that throughout that game, everytime someone said "WTF Shep, you're a terrorist now?" I had the option of saying "Hell No!"

 

People in the world of Thedas have heard that the Chantry has decared the Inquisitor the Herald of Andraste. You may be uncomfortable with that title, just as Jaime Lannister despises being called Kingslayer, but people are going to call you that. Personally I think it'll be role play gold to play a character that hates the notion as much as some people in this thread do.

 

I'm a staunch atheist myself but I'll be playign an Andrastian on my first PT and a complete despier of the Chantry on my second. BioWare isn;t going to force anyone to be an Andrastian, and I can imagine a huge number of options you will have in game to rp that position. 

I admire peoples devotion to their principles but if you choose not to play it because of a plot device thats in the "cut off nose to spite face" category imo.