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[animedreamer]

 

I think this person was on to something even before the citadel DLC came out. I mean, outside of the memory issues it could make sense.

[Kabooooom]

This video should be called, "fan misunderstands medical science, makes idiotic extrapolations".

For anyone wondering, no - Shepard's brain would not "boil in space, destroying all connections between neurons". I had to stop watching there. His level of ignorance was too grating. If I were to guess, he probably Googled most of the stuff he cited in the video, clearly without truly understanding it.

[animedreamer]

This video should be called, "fan misunderstands medical science, makes idiotic extrapolations".

For anyone wondering, no - Shepard's brain would not "boil in space, destroying all connections between neurons". I had to stop watching there. His level of ignorance was too grating. If I were to guess, he probably Googled most of the stuff he cited in the video, clearly without truly understanding it.

 

I don't know anything about the vacuum of the space and its effects on the human body, could to tell me the truth behind his claims im curious.

[Grieving Natashina]

I like some of the Game Theorist stuff, but I have to admit it's one of his weakest episodes.  I didn't really agree with his viewpoint and as Kaboom mentioned, his science was pretty far off.  

 

I would still recommend the rest of the show to anyone.  It's mostly fun Tin Foil Hat stuff.

[Excella Gionne]

SPACE SCIENCE is the answer to everything!

[DeathScepter]

No no It is Cerberus Science...........*a Cerberus Phantom gives him a datapad stating that Cerberus Science is a branch of Space Science; thanks the Cerberus phantom and gives her a pay raise*

[Kabooooom]

I don't know anything about the vacuum of the space and its effects on the human body, could to tell me the truth behind his claims im curious.

I actually spent about twenty minutes writing a reply explaining in detail what happens to a body when exposed to a vacuum - but my damn phone browser crashed and deleted it all (Nokia phones are pieces of ****, by the way. I miss my iPhone). So instead of rewriting it all, I will have NASA explain:

http://imagine.gsfc....ers/970603.html

You also wont instantly freeze, since conduction and convection are negligible in space. You will lose heat via thermal radiation, which is considerably slower. Depending on how you calculate it (with the surface area to volume ratio of a body being the most difficult variable to estimate), you get values from near an hour to several hours in order to "freeze", and much longer to reach thermodynamic equilibrium.

The aspects of his video which were addressing biology and medical science were also horribly butchered. Given that my background is in medicine, I can probably address any questions you have about any of the things he brought up in great detail. Suffice it to say, in my opinion the central premise of his video - that a Lazarus-esque project will someday be possible with advanced medical science, IS indeed plausible in that it will likely be possible to revive an individual after a prolonged period of clinical brain-death (even after repairing severe traumatic injuries while the individual is effectively dead) provided that certain conditions be deliberately met. But are we "nearly there already" (he literally says something to that effect)? Uhhh nope. Herp a derp. However, we are on the fast track to see incredible advances in regenerative and personalized medicine within the coming decades, and a completely transformed landscape of medical practice by mid-century which will make much of what we do today seem quaint and archaic. The 21st century will be a century noted in part for massive advances in biomedical science. And by 2150?...I can't even imagine. Totally unpredictable, at our rate of scientific and technological advancement. But just as there was nothing stopping us in a scientific sense from reaching the moon, barring technological hurdles - so too is there nothing fundamentally stopping us from reviving an individual after a prolonged period of brain-death.

He also cites induced hypothermia via intravenous infusion as a "current" advancement in this direction. He is sort of correct - except that we've known about this for about 25 years. However, this practice is now being done in select hospitals, and one could envision a further modification of this technique with advances in cryopreservation which could potentially increase the revival time by months or years, provided that the central problem of maintaining tissue architecture is resolved (which it will be, since mother nature already solved the problem with several species of amphibians). Now that we've effectively demonstrated that mammals can survive, and indeed have favorable recovery, after prolonged periods of induced hypothermia (this was previously thought to be impossible) - I have no doubt that we will explore the extremes of this concept.

[Grieving Natashina]

I agree with you, completely.

 

Just wanted to mention that by the time Shepard is in action, it's not only over 170+ years into the future, but humanity got a huge boost from the ruins on Mars.  I think Hackett, Miranda or TIM (not sure which, sick and loopy at the moment,) mentions that those ruins jumped humanity's technology forward by something like 300 years.  So in about 400-500 years or so worth of technological advancements, (170 years into the future plus the equivalent of 300 years for the tech leap) I think something like Project Lazarus could happen.

[ZipZap2000]

I love threads like this.

 

@Natashina TIM says it advanced humanity further in it's discovery than the previous 10,000 years combined.

[Grieving Natashina]

I love threads like this.

I love seeing doctors come out of the woodwork on the BSN.  It's also fun when the history professors start showing up as well, which happens from time to time in the DA forums.  

 

I love threads like this.

 

@Natashina TIM says it advanced humanity further in it's discovery than the previous 10,000 years combined.

I think Hackett said 300 years, and I'm more inclined to believe him.  Still, point remains, and gods only know what exactly Cerberus was up to.  Other than probably making sure eezo exposure "accident" happened to produce human biotics.

[ZipZap2000]

I always get a little bit excited about space and history so I'm like Homer Simpson staring at a donut.

[Grieving Natashina]

I always get a little bit excited about space and history so I'm like Homer Simpson staring at a donut.

I couldn't resist:

 

 

I'm sicker than hell and on cold meds, so I'm kinda loopy.  Sorry for the off-topic posts, I'll go back to reading.

[themikefest]

 

I love seeing doctors come out of the woodwork on the BSN.  It's also fun when the history professors start showing up as well, which happens from time to time in the DA forums.  

 

I think Hackett said 300 years, and I'm more inclined to believe him.  Still, point remains, and gods only know what exactly Cerberus was up to.  Other than probably making sure eezo exposure "accident" happened to produce human biotics.

 

It was Anderson who said it  when talking with Nihlus and Shepard before landing on Eden Prime

 

Anderson: This is big Shepard. The last time humanity made a discovery like this, it jumped our technology  forward 200 hundred years

[animedreamer]

Thank you Kaboooom, that was very insightful. I'll have to be more select about which videos I watch in the future.

[TurianRebel212]

lol, pretty much spot on. Had a thread a long time ago in the day's of BSN about Ebullism and what it does to the body. 

 

 

Lets just say this. 

 

 

There are 8 vein networks in the human brain and 2 artery's.

 

Ebullism occurs fairly quickly. It's debatable whether the brain would boil. I think if the subject was exposed long enough it would, after all ebullism boils blood vessels and soft tissues (What the human brain made from again.....). 

 

In Shep 1.0 case, I'd say probably. But even if Shepard was only exposed enough for the lungs to swell and hemorrhage and the artery's to become blocked thus starving brain tissue of oxygen thus resulting in BRAIN DEATH. 

 

 

 

Lets just say...... Shepard, by any and all medical possibilities,was NOT salvageable. Brain death did occur, (I think complete brain destruction), while Shepard was in space before he re-entered the atmosphere. 

 

In short, Shepard had a bad day, lol. 

 

 

Now, many will say that it's impossible then that Proj. Lazarus could even happen. 

 

 

 

However..... 

 

It is not. Nope. Not really The established lore of Mass Effect tells us otherwise. 

 

 

Remember Husks? 

 

Well, husks are BRAIN DEAD Humans that are "rezzed" back to "life"  by reaper cybernetic implants..... 

 

 

See, Reapers are so technologically advanced that they can rezz back brain dead entities. 

 

 

Remember Saren? 

 

 

Yeah, you know. The derpy Spectre who got himself all indoctrinated by Squid Face 1 and tried to let all the reapers in so the "harvest" could happen. 

 

 

 

Well.... It just so happens that at the end of ME1 good ole' Sarenderp gets brainshotted (Possibly twice if you convince him to off himself). Not only does he blow his brains out himself. But then one of Sheps pals puts one more in his dome, just for teh lulz.  Complete brain destruction. 

 

 

 

And yet..... 

 

Saren got back up and started hopping around like Lindsey Lohan at a Beverly hills free base party. And Saren had what done  to him by Sovie between Virmire and the Battle of the Citadel....... 

 

Oh yeah.... Reaper implants. 

 

 

The reapes are the only known entity to possess such knowledge and technological ability 

 

 

 

So Shepard came back. With a little help from Harby and Pals. 

 

 

 

Afterall...... 

 

 

 

Has The Illusive Man ever been exposed to Reaper signals prior to ME2????

 

 

 

"Never question my ability to fight Shepard. I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"

 

 

The truth of things, is that Mass Effect and specifically Shepard, are shall we say..... A bit. Anomalous in nature. 

[Kabooooom]

lol, pretty much spot on. Had a thread a long time ago in the day's of BSN about Ebullism and what it does to the body.


Lets just say this.


There are 8 vein networks in the human brain and 2 artery's.

Ebullism occurs fairly quickly. It's debatable whether the brain would boil. I think if the subject was exposed long enough it would, after all ebullism boils blood vessels and soft tissues (What the human brain made from again.....).

In Shep 1.0 case, I'd say probably. But even if Shepard was only exposed enough for the lungs to swell and hemorrhage and the artery's to become blocked thus starving brain tissue of oxygen thus resulting in BRAIN DEATH.



Lets just say...... Shepard, by any and all medical possibilities,was NOT salvageable. Brain death did occur, (I think complete brain destruction), while Shepard was in space before he re-entered the atmosphere.

In short, Shepard had a bad day, lol.


Now, many will say that it's impossible then that Proj. Lazarus could even happen.



However.....

It is not. Nope. Not really The established lore of Mass Effect tells us otherwise.


Remember Husks?

Well, husks are BRAIN DEAD Humans that are "rezzed" back to "life" by reaper cybernetic implants.....


See, Reapers are so technologically advanced that they can rezz back brain dead entities.


Remember Saren?


Yeah, you know. The derpy Spectre who got himself all indoctrinated by Squid Face 1 and tried to let all the reapers in so the "harvest" could happen.



Well.... It just so happens that at the end of ME1 good ole' Sarenderp gets brainshotted (Possibly twice if you convince him to off himself). Not only does he blow his brains out himself. But then one of Sheps pals puts one more in his dome, just for teh lulz. Complete brain destruction.



And yet.....

Saren got back up and started hopping around like Lindsey Lohan at a Beverly hills free base party. And Saren had what done to him by Sovie between Virmire and the Battle of the Citadel.......

Oh yeah.... Reaper implants.


The reapes are the only known entity to possess such knowledge and technological ability



So Shepard came back. With a little help from Harby and Pals.



Afterall......



Has The Illusive Man ever been exposed to Reaper signals prior to ME2????



"Never question my ability to fight Shepard. I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"


The truth of things, is that Mass Effect and specifically Shepard, are shall we say..... A bit. Anomalous in nature.

The brain would not "boil", like I brought up earlier - the pressure inside the body by the tissues of the body prevent ebullism from causing this to happen. And even if it did, what the guy in the video said is untrue - it is a different sort of "boiling" due to the pressure difference. You cant think of it in the same way as when you cause a phase transition by heating up a pot of water on the stove. Protein would not denature. Synapses would not be destroyed. The microscopic architecture of the brain would still be intact. Furthermore, the confining effect of the cranium makes the brain even more protected from the sort of soft tissue swelling that you see in the skin when it is exposed to a vacuum. Vasodilation due to hypoxia, and subsequent increase in intracranial pressure, would occur - but this would be a minor problem compared to the ischemic damage that would be expected. And this too, is potentially reversible - obviously if the state of vacuum exposure is reversed within a few minutes, but also if hypothermia can be induced quickly following brain death.

Like I said in my first post - "brain death" is not necessarily an irreversible state, although for legal purposes today it is defined as such. This is problematic, because we KNOW that it is not necessarily irreversible. It is the changes that occur following brain death that are irreversible, and these changes can be mitigated. Thus, a person declared clinically brain dead and non-revivable today may be considered revivable fifty years from now.

In Shepard's case, his only chance of preserving the function of his brain would be immediate induced hypothermia. Since he would cool down way too slowly in the vacuum (probably over several hours), exposure to Alchera's frigid atmosphere would be the only way that this could be accomplished. Unfortunately, that requires impacting the ground after re-entry (side note: He would not burn up on re-entry either). Personally, to make sense of the Lazarus project, I headcanon that after death in orbit, he immediately entered the atmosphere and impacted the ground, with his helmet mostly protecting the brain, and reaching thermodynamic equilibrium with the environment preventing irreversible neural damage.

The problem would be the formation of ice crystals disrupting neural architecture. There's no fix for that, unless the tech exists to repair that damage once it occurred. One could envision ways to prevent this via future technology, for example, lets say the computer in your space suit realizes that you are dead and about to enter an atmosphere of a planet that will cause you to freeze - so it pumps an antifreeze solution through your bloodstream which allows your tissues to reach thermodynamic equilibrium at a very cold temperature, but without the formation of ice crystals. This is essentially how some frogs manage to preserve their tissues during a freeze, and likely how we will overcome this with cryonics in the future (they already attempt this with modern cryonics, but that is after cardiac arrest. I can envision the classic sci-fi scenario of deliberately freezing a healthy person for a space voyage by utilizing some semblance of the technique that mother nature has already perfected with evolution).

[StarcloudSWG]

And in the videos on the Cerberus Base just before Priority Earth:

 

Discussing the Lazarus project; "Tissue regeneration is proceeding. The helmet kept [Shepard's] brain intact, for whatever good that will do."

[SwobyJ]

Shepard's brain and mushy body was still there to work with.

 

He may have become brain and body dead, but this material was reconstructed to come to life. We're allowed to take this ME2+ Shepard to be either the return of ME1's Shepard, or as a new Shepard that is still just as good (or even better) than the ME1 one. In either case, to Shepard, he is who he is, and that is Shepard.

 

 

He's kinda a zombie though, sure. Or revenant. ME1 Shepard had his journey, and his memories and body did the rest. In the context of the plot, that's possibly for the best - ME1 Shepard may have never been able to do what was required for ME2-ME3 (in terms of personality/life experiences, medical engineering, reinforcement of the capabilities of the Reapers, etc.)

 

 

In all 3 games, I think Shepard is Shepard. Whatever happens to him, is probably JUST not enough to outright destroy every part of him that would, in human terms, define him as the same person. He's a survivor, at the very core (even when surviving sometimes means the assistance of others, and a hand up). So yeah, Game Theory is wrong. But Shepard is also a changed person after his experiences. The same person, but with more/new parts to him. And we can decide how much to accept that or not, and in what way.

 

It'd be interesting to see what Post-Destroy-Breath Shepard would be. (aside from something stupid like comatose until he dies)

[Display Name Owner]

What happens in a vacuum is kind of moot, isn't it? The bigger issue is that Shepard is implied to have entered an atmosphere and crashed into a planet. There shouldn't have been enough of his left to fill a pint glass, never mind an operating table. I don't know why they didn't just have Shepard be comatose and badly injured  instead of going into this "literally dead" malarkey. 

[Kabooooom]

What happens in a vacuum is kind of moot, isn't it? The bigger issue is that Shepard is implied to have entered an atmosphere and crashed into a planet. There shouldn't have been enough of his left to fill a pint glass, never mind an operating table. I don't know why they didn't just have Shepard be comatose and badly injured instead of going into this "literally dead" malarkey.

Not really. As I mentioned before, most likely he would not have burned up on re-entry, and the material of his suit undoubtedly could offer a great degree of protection on impact (whether you like it or not, the helmet is said to have protected his brain). Still, the Lazarus Project showed almost every bone I his body to be shattered, and he was described as looking like "blood and tubes" or some such effect

[Daemul]

I agree with you, completely.

Just wanted to mention that by the time Shepard is in action, it's not only over 170+ years into the future, but humanity got a huge boost from the ruins on Mars. I think Hackett, Miranda or TIM (not sure which, sick and loopy at the moment,) mentions that those ruins jumped humanity's technology forward by something like 300 years. So in about 400-500 years or so worth of technological advancements, (170 years into the future plus the equivalent of 300 years for the tech leap) I think something like Project Lazarus could happen.

The thing is, in the Cerberus logs about Project Lazarus, we have the doctor literally say "It cannot be done" and later on goes to say, "Sir, Shepard is clinically brain dead. After that much trauma, that long without oxygen.....We cannot overcome nature".

This shows that even with the advancements in technology and with the boost from the mars archives, bringing someone back from the dead is still something which is clearly beyond the capabilities of races in 2183, eitherwise the doctor wouldn't have said what he did. How Miranda managed to pull it off is unknown, and the whole thing is completely swept underneath the rug, and rarely touched upon again. "We spent loads of money" doesn't cut it as an explanation.

I find it ridiculous how Bioware went out of their way to explain to us how stuff like Element Zero and biotics work, but won't tell us a thing about how the hell the Lazarus Project happened. The whole thing was a marketing tool anyway, we knew about it long in advance of the game coming out. It was one of the early signs of Bioware preferring to choose Rule of Cool over what was logical. Shepard being injured and needing cybernetics to survive whilst being in a coma for two years would have had the exact same effect, but NOPE, Bioware couldn't resist.

 

TurianRebel is right, the only thing that would make sense is Reaper tech, and it wouldn't be a stretch since Cerberus have a lot of it, much to their detriment lol. 

[Kabooooom]

I took that quote to be more along the lines of how people at one time said "we cannot put a man on the moon, it cannot be done. We can't overcome nature". This same doctor was later surprised that whatever they did actually worked.

And while we don't know exactly what they did, we do know that they used a combination of tissue regeneration and cybernetics to bring him back, and tissue cloning played a role as well.

[Daemul]

I took that quote to be more along the lines of how people at one time said "we cannot put a man on the moon, it cannot be done. We can't overcome nature". This same doctor was later surprised that whatever they did actually worked.

And while we don't know exactly what they did, we do know that they used a combination of tissue regeneration and cybernetics to bring him back, and tissue cloning played a role as well.

 

The thing is, that would imply no one had ever thought about trying to use tissue regeneration and cybernetics in an attempt to bring someone back from the dead before, which in such an advanced society, seems impossible. Something else was clearly at play. What? I have no idea. I doubt Bioware have any idea either. 

[Kabooooom]

The thing is, that would imply no one had ever thought about trying to use tissue regeneration and cybernetics in an attempt to bring someone back from the dead before, which in such an advanced society, seems impossible. Something else was clearly at play. What? I have no idea. I doubt Bioware have any idea either.

Well, the primary issue is the potential brain damage, not the revival itself. I'm sure other individuals had experimented with reviving a dead body and repairing neural function, but without preservation of the individual. We know in the case of Huerta that they were even satisfied with having a VI run his brain, which seems hilarious to me, but whatever.

Cerberus, however, was much more picky. They wanted Shepard - his memories, his morals, his motor skills - entirely preserved and revived. This would require absolute preservation of neural architecture. THAT is probably what the scientist considered impossible. He even remarks on how they were lucky that the helmet protected his brain, but that hypoxic damage was still probably irreversible. The one caveat to that, as I hypothesized, would be if hypothermia set in immediately - which would require a swift entrance of Alchera's atmosphere once he was spaced.

Likely, the scientist would have no way of knowing exactly how long he was exposed to space, which would be a determinant factor - since it would take at least an hour to cool down significantly in a vacuum, his brain would be accumulating ischemic damage for the entirety of that time.

[Daemul]

Well, the primary issue is the potential brain damage, not the revival itself. I'm sure other individuals had experimented with reviving a dead body and repairing neural function, but without preservation of the individual. We know in the case of Huerta that they were even satisfied with having a VI run his brain, which seems hilarious to me, but whatever.

Cerberus, however, was much more picky. They wanted Shepard - his memories, his morals, his motor skills - entirely preserved and revived. This would require absolute preservation of neural architecture. THAT is probably what the scientist considered impossible. He even remarks on how they were lucky that the helmet protected his brain, but that hypoxic damage was still probably irreversible. The one caveat to that, as I hypothesized, would be if hypothermia set in immediately - which would require a swift entrance of Alchera's atmosphere once he was spaced.

Likely, the scientist would have no way of knowing exactly how long he was exposed to space, which would be a determinant factor - since it would take at least an hour to cool down significantly in a vacuum, his brain would be accumulating ischemic damage for the entirety of that time.

 

Oh, I agree. Did Shepard enter Alchera's atmosphere that quickly, or at all? I know there have been massive discussions over the past 4-5 years over whether he actually did, with I think a dev, or someone who claimed to be a dev at least, coming into one of those discussions during the height of the debate saying Shepard never did fall to the planet and just floated there in space. The cinematic shows what looks to be the beginnings of planetary re-entry, but hey, this is Bioware, cinematic's in the series have been misleading before.