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[Kabooooom]

Oh, I agree. Did Shepard enter Alchera's atmosphere that quickly, or at all? I know there have been massive discussions over the past 4-5 years over whether he actually did, with I think a dev, or someone who claimed to be a dev at least, coming into one of those discussions during the height of the debate saying Shepard never did fall to the planet and just floated there in space. The cinematic shows what looks to be the beginnings of planetary re-entry, but hey, this is Bioware, cinematic's in the series have been misleading before.

The comics do indeed show him entering the atmosphere (even igniting, which would not happen) and subsequently his recovery from the planet's surface. His helmet is also recovered from the planet surface during the game, although this could just be considered an Easter egg.

I imagine the dev said that to counter the protest from some of the less...scientifically adept fans. The dev must not have realized that prolonged exposure to space would not make the situation better - but actually far worse, solely because his body would be comparatively warm for an extended period of time as it slowly lost heat via radiation.

Another line of evidence that he entered the atmosphere and impacted the planet is that the Lazarus Project shows every bone in his body as crushed, and he was described as "so badly damaged that you couldn't tell if he was male or female".

They should have just stuck with their guns. In my opinion, repairing the body after that degree of trauma via future technology is absolutely fascinating to me from a medical standpoint. Because of my understanding of physiology, I found myself often thinking about how this could be done - and if it could be done at all. I came to the conclusion that it actually could, but it would require some extremely impressive techniques, technology, and knowledge, and it would depend on certain specific criteria being met immediately after death.

Side note: I just had a thought. This entire problem could have been avoided, and would have been much more believable, if Shep simply had a graybox all along and this was recovered with his body. Now, the preservation of neural architecture would be inconsequential. All we are is our memories, composing our self, residing within the delicate architecture of the brain. There is no such thing as a "soul" or an immutable "I". There is no ghost in the machine. The dialogue could have simply been "Shepard's brain was severely damaged, but can be repaired with tissue regeneration. Luckily, his graybox was intact, containing the sum total of all his memories. His personality, and what makes him Shepard, is therefore still intact".

This would have further opened up some pretty deep dialogue which Shep only briefly touches upon in the story - would he be the same person, or someone else who merely has the same memories and thinks he is Shepard? Modern neurology suggests that he would be the same person, the same consciousness. But, the question is certainly one to think about...and Bioware missed the opportunity.

[Daemul]

Side note: I just had a thought. This entire problem could have been avoided, and would have been much more believable, if Shep simply had a graybox all along and this was recovered with his body. Now, the preservation of neural architecture would be inconsequential. All we are is our memories, composing our self, residing within the delicate architecture of the brain. There is no such thing as a "soul" or an immutable "I". There is no ghost in the machine. The dialogue could have simply been "Shepard's brain was severely damaged, but can be repaired with tissue regeneration. Luckily, his graybox was intact, containing the sum total of all his memories. His personality, and what makes him Shepard, is therefore still intact".

This would have further opened up some pretty deep dialogue which Shep only briefly touches upon in the story - would he be the same person, or someone else who merely has the same memories and thinks he is Shepard? Modern neurology suggests that he would be the same person, the same consciousness. But, the question is certainly one to think about...and Bioware missed the opportunity.

 

I was thinking along these lines as well, but Bioware, unknowingly I believe, killed all possibility of this, which would have given them a out mind you, by having the Alliance ban the sale and use of grayboxes. Even assuming that Shepard had one implanted as a child, it's unlikely to have gone unnoticed by the Alliance Military. 

 

On the debate about whether he would be the same person or not, it depends on what people believe really, If someone believes in the existence of a soul, then to them, Shepard is dead, the person who woke up from the Cerberus surgery table is nothing but a clone who thinks he's Shepard. I'm of the belied that it is still Shepard, but we live in a world where 95%(pulling numbers from my arse) of people believe that humanity is special, each and every individual is special and unique, so I will probably be in the minority of people who hold this view. 

 

You also touched on something which angered me the most about Lazarus, Bioware didn't take the opportunity to develop Shepard, and those around him as characters. How would Shepard react, how would their LI from Mass Effect 1 feel about this, do they still see them as the same person that they loved? How would society react to Shepard? How would religions? How would Cerberus be viewed after this? As a bunch of Doctor Frankensteins? Would there be complaints from the public about the Alliance allowing Shepard back in, or complains to the Council about reinstating him?

 

You just know that this sort of thing would spark massive discussion across the galaxy, it wouldn't be allowed to slide. Bioware messed it up though, like I said before, it was just a marketing tool, it was never meant to be more. 

[Kabooooom]

On the debate about whether he would be the same person or not, it depends on what people believe really, If someone believes in the existence of a soul, then to them, Shepard is dead, the person who woke up from the Cerberus surgery table is nothing but a clone who thinks he's Shepard. I'm of the belied that it is still Shepard, but we live in a world where 95%(pulling numbers from my arse) of people believe that humanity is special, each and every individual is special and unique, so I will probably be in the minority of people who hold this view.

I am in agreement with you. We are in the minority, but most people don't understand neurology, and cling to ancient beliefs because it makes them feel good. There is absolutely nothing, from our current understanding, that suggests that he would be a different person. There is actually a very interesting logical "thought experiment" that can sort of be viewed as a "proof" of this, but that's a discussion for another time. Really, the sum total of all lines of evidence from modern neurology, neurophysiology and biochemistry, comparative neuroanatomy and neuropathology not only reject any metaphysics - but specifically require the rejection of metaphysics in order to function as explanatory tools at all.

And since Mass Effect is a science fiction story, addressing the philosophical ramifications of the neurological nature of consciousness would have been equivalent, in my opinion, to addressing the philosophical ramifications of the nature of synthetic consciousness. Which they did. In abundance. So I really do think they missed the opportunity there. So, maybe they would have pissed off some religious folks - they could get over it, as they are playing a science fiction game.

This is a comic that touches upon the thought experiment that I mentioned above. It's an amusing read:

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

[JasonShepard]

Information death of the brain.

 

Note that this is not clinical brain death. Instead, it's the point at which the memories, the thought processes, the information that makes up the personality - all of that is gone. The equivalent to a book being burned. A hard-drive being (properly) wiped. The point at which entropy has taken over and the information is irretrievable.

 

Once a letter has been burned, you can't get the words back.

Once the brain has decayed, and the neuron structures have broken down, you can't get the person back.

 

If Shepard has gone past this point, no amount of ridiculous technology will save the Commander. The current medical belief of when this point occurs? A few hours after brain death, if under Earth-like conditions. (That's actually quite thrilling, if you think about it - it's theoretically possible to save someone even if they've been 'dead' for an hour.)

 

The problem, for me, is that regardless of whether Shepard underwent re-entry or stayed in orbit, he or she should have reached this point long before being retrieved by the Blue Suns.

 

In orbit, Shepard's suit is decompressing. The Commander is guaranteed an extreme case of the decompression sickness. Blood boiling, bubbles forming in the veins, that sort of thing. It's going wreak havoc on the brain and I'm pretty sure it would accelerate information death. The Blue Suns' accidental discovery of Shepard would need to be quick.

 

Re-entry... Alchera is roughly the same gravity and atmosphere as Earth, just much colder. Even if we handwave the re-entry and landing via some impressive suit technology, that cold is going to be a problem. You do not want ice-crystals forming in the brain; that would tear open every brain cell Shepard has. Cryonics only avoid this by being very careful and with some clever chemicals. Alchera... isn't a cryonic facility.

 

****

 

But since I've just mentioned cryonics, and since we're already putting in this much effort of thinking about it - maybe Cerberus had Shepard's helmet swapped out. The old one is the one that you find at the crash site. The new one had a cryonic system built in, and that's what saved the Commander. After all, ME2's introduction with Miranda and TIM takes place before the Collector attack.

[StarcloudSWG]

We're not quite sure what medigel does, exactly. And we're absolutely clueless about the interaction of medigel, an inert nitrogen atmosphere, and temperatures near the freezing point of nitrogen.

 

It's a good thing Bioware didn't try to explain it, because figuring out how medigel should work (which is actually a bio-engineered single-cellular organism according to mass effect lore and technically illegal to develop in Council space) would require more scientific knowledge than Bioware has among its employees.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Information death of the brain.

 

Note that this is not clinical brain death. Instead, it's the point at which the memories, the thought processes, the information that makes up the personality - all of that is gone. The equivalent to a book being burned. A hard-drive being (properly) wiped. The point at which entropy has taken over and the information is irretrievable.

 

Once a letter has been burned, you can't get the words back.

Once the brain has decayed, and the neuron structures have broken down, you can't get the person back.

 

If Shepard has gone past this point, no amount of ridiculous technology will save the Commander. The current medical belief of when this point occurs? A few hours after brain death, if under Earth-like conditions. (That's actually quite thrilling, if you think about it - it's theoretically possible to save someone even if they've been 'dead' for an hour.)

 

The problem, for me, is that regardless of whether Shepard underwent re-entry or stayed in orbit, he or she should have reached this point long before being retrieved by the Blue Suns.

 

In orbit, Shepard's suit is decompressing. The Commander is guaranteed an extreme case of the decompression sickness. Blood boiling, bubbles forming in the veins, that sort of thing. It's going wreak havoc on the brain and I'm pretty sure it would accelerate information death. The Blue Suns' accidental discovery of Shepard would need to be quick.

 

Re-entry... Alchera is roughly the same gravity and atmosphere as Earth, just much colder. Even if we handwave the re-entry and landing via some impressive suit technology, that cold is going to be a problem. You do not want ice-crystals forming in the brain; that would tear open every brain cell Shepard has. Cryonics only avoid this by being very careful and with some clever chemicals. Alchera... isn't a cryonic facility.

 

****

 

But since I've just mentioned cryonics, and since we're already putting in this much effort of thinking about it - maybe Cerberus had Shepard's helmet swapped out. The old one is the one that you find at the crash site. The new one had a cryonic system built in, and that's what saved the Commander. After all, ME2's introduction with Miranda and TIM takes place before the Collector attack.

 

Shepard is body with a VI programmed to think it's Commander Shepard. That's why Shepard is a brick. Shepard develops emotional responses at about the rate of EDI.

 

The created will always rebel against their creators.

 

Shepard VI rebelled against Cerberus.

 

This explains why Shepard could not be indoctrinated. Shepard was a machine.

[StarcloudSWG]

Sorry, nope, the problem there is that this is explicitly denied in game.

 

Take Liara on the final Cerberus mission. She outright tells you that 'no, you're not a VI. You are you.'

[Kabooooom]

We're not quite sure what medigel does, exactly. And we're absolutely clueless about the interaction of medigel, an inert nitrogen atmosphere, and temperatures near the freezing point of nitrogen.

It's a good thing Bioware didn't try to explain it, because figuring out how medigel should work (which is actually a bio-engineered single-cellular organism according to mass effect lore and technically illegal to develop in Council space) would require more scientific knowledge than Bioware has among its employees.

You should read my posts, I addressed much of this already. The hypothermia would actually extend the period of viability (provided no ice crystals formed - I proposed a way to circumvent that too) and ebullism would not significantly accelerate information death or greatly disrupt neural architecture. The neural damage comes from hypoxia, which would be inconsequential, since after about thirty seconds, Shep would lose consciousness solely due to vacuum exposure, hypoxic damage would begin and continue after cardiac arrest - regardless of ebullism. I also pointed out that since it takes a considerable amount of time to actually freeze in space, contact with Alchera's atmosphere or surface would actually help Shep in the sense that induced hypothermia would prolong the period before information death - provided the impact didn't destroy his brain.

I'm not sure where all these myths about vacuum exposure come from...hollywood, maybe - I don't know.

[StarcloudSWG]

Yes, I read that part. However, Shepard also has access to medigel. How that changes things is unknown, and may actually be the anomalous factor that keeps the neural connections in Shepard's brain intact for far longer than expected even with the impromptu cryo-cooling before the Lazarus project gets underway.

[JasonShepard]

You should read my posts, I addressed much of this already. The hypothermia would actually extend the period of viability (provided no ice crystals formed - I proposed a way to circumvent that too) and ebullism would not significantly accelerate information death or greatly disrupt neural architecture. The neural damage comes from hypoxia, which would be inconsequential, since after about thirty seconds, Shep would lose consciousness solely due to vacuum exposure, hypoxic damage would begin and continue after cardiac arrest - regardless of ebullism. I also pointed out that since it takes a considerable amount of time to actually freeze in space, contact with Alchera's atmosphere or surface would actually help Shep in the sense that induced hypothermia would prolong the period before information death - provided the impact didn't destroy his brain.

I'm not sure where all these myths about vacuum exposure come from...hollywood, maybe - I don't know.

 

I'm guessing this post was addressed at me? From context, it seems like it, but you've actually quoted the person after me. Just checking.

 

Anyway - yeah, you and I are thinking along similar lines, and yes, you have more expertise on the subject. So I'll defer to your knowledge. (I probably should have given the thread a more thorough read-through before posting. Not doing so is rather unlike me, so I apologise.) I'll note that previously I preferred the "stayed in space" explanation, since it avoided the messy issues of re-entry and impacting the ground, but I have now changed my mind. The cold could actually be useful, properly managed by a decent in-suit life-support system, and re-entry would be less bad than it is for most asteroids, since Shepard is potentially starting from rest. And we already have suits that can parachute you from low earth orbit.

 

I think many of the myths just come from the fact that vacuum exposure isn't really something that the human race has much experience with. The belief that space is cold doesn't help, and Hollywood does have a bad habit of making this stuff up as it goes along, but it's largely just people taking uneducated guesses rather than looking it up.

 

(Heck, I did look it up before my previous post, and I still got some stuff wrong. I forgot that the skull would do a good job at maintaining intra-cranial pressure...)

 

Ice crystals in the brain - do we know that that would lead to information death, or is it the sort of thing that might someday be reversible? After all, freezing is a fairly predictable process.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yes, I read that part. However, Shepard also has access to medigel. How that changes things is unknown, and may actually be the anomalous factor that keeps the neural connections in Shepard's brain intact for far longer than expected even with the impromptu cryo-cooling before the Lazarus project gets underway.

MediGel creates blood clots....

All it does is stop bleeding. 

And it sure as hell can't be applied by the suit to the brain. 
 

[Kabooooom]

I'm guessing this post was addressed at me? From context, it seems like it, but you've actually quoted the person after me. Just checking.

Anyway - yeah, you and I are thinking along similar lines, and yes, you have more expertise on the subject. So I'll defer to your knowledge. (I probably should have given the thread a more thorough read-through before posting. Not doing so is rather unlike me, so I apologise.) I'll note that previously I preferred the "stayed in space" explanation, since it avoided the messy issues of re-entry and impacting the ground, but I have now changed my mind. The cold could actually be useful, properly managed by a decent in-suit life-support system, and re-entry would be less bad than it is for most asteroids, since Shepard is potentially starting from rest. And we already have suits that can parachute you from low earth orbit.

I think many of the myths just come from the fact that vacuum exposure isn't really something that the human race has much experience with. The belief that space is cold doesn't help, and Hollywood does have a bad habit of making this stuff up as it goes along, but it's largely just people taking uneducated guesses rather than looking it up.

(Heck, I did look it up before my previous post, and I still got some stuff wrong. I forgot that the skull would do a good job at maintaining intra-cranial pressure...)

Ice crystals in the brain - do we know that that would lead to information death, or is it the sort of thing that might someday be reversible? After all, freezing is a fairly predictable process.

Oops my bad, yeah I meant to quote you but accidentally quoted the next post but didn't realize.

Ice crystals in the brain would almost certainly lead to information death due to disruption of neural architecture. As ice is less dense than liquid water, it will expand upon freezing, disrupting synapses, displacing or lysing neurons. I think it is safe to say that somehow this would have to be avoided for Lazarus to be plausible at all.