231 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerkules17]

The fact he protected that monster bothered me,but Hawke's sister(along with every mage in the area,my canon wise in my story) needed to be save. I can sympathies with the leader of the templars(besides being a hot gal aka a woman in power with respect,and tragic history,yet kinky...,but still very hot),but I can't doom my sister(who I prefer over my little bro who will always hate me,unless he becomes a warden,dang you Bioware for making human characters that I care for...keep up the good work.) She will live even if it kills Hawke.

[Adanu]

It's imprisonment. Slavery is being owned to carry out labor. There's a difference. 

 

I'm all for less restrictions and mages being responsible enough to police themselves, but the fact that you think there's nothing wrong with blood magic makes me we're not going to see eye to eye on much. I'll just cut it short here. Feel free to have the last word.

 

You're splitting hairs massively, and wrongly.

 

I believe in intent being more important than the means in general, with a few blatant exceptions. Blood magic is not evil, it is simply feared for it's obvious potential stealthy domination.

 

Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

[gottaloveme]

Orsino taking on the quanari at the Keep - gotta admit he's got style

[Bardox9]

I have always placed the full blame of the mess that Kirkwall was left in entirely on Orsino. Every wrong thing he could have done, he did. Sure Meredith was paranoid beyond reason at the end, but it was Orsino's actions, not just the idol, that drove her to that.

 

And the Circle is not a prison and the mages are not enslaved. Or atleast they are not meant to be. The only reason things were as bad as they were in Kirkwall was Orsino's constant refusal to aid the Templars in their attempts to rout the bloodmages and abominations from the circle. He was actively helping that blood mage that carved up Hawke's mother and who knows how many other women.

 

"The Circle's walls protect us as much as they protect others from us." The way the Circle is suppose to function is that the Enchanters train the young mages to use their powers responsibly while the Templars watch over and guard them. Sometimes even from themselves. Of course there are zealots on both sides, but as long as the First Enchanter and Knight Commander work together those forces can be kept in check. The Circle is far from perfect, but of the list of nothing but bad options, this one sucks the least... unless of course the First Enchanter is supporting corrupt mages bent on enslaving the rest of the world. Then things tend to blow up.

[Elite Midget]

That's not a middle way, that's slavery disguised as a solution.

What would you do? Orsino proved without a doubt that Mages simply REFUSE to police their own if it benefited them. He also KNEW about the Blood Mages for years, and that there were those in the Circle that were practicing it, yet he continued to try and cover it up and denied they even existed when it was brought up in public.

[Kenshen]

yes, i do agree with that.

 

Whenever you ask Elthina about anything, she always stay neutral no matter what. She has all the power to remove Meredith, Orsino and even Petrice but she did nothing. Even Petrice who has been asking her to get the people to remove the Qunari, she not only did nothing, but she never remove Petrice as well (in fact, promoted her!!!!). She has no backbone whatsoever.

 

She is the Grand Cleric. Whatever she says, is probably more important than what any of them will say (the only person who has more say is the Divine).

 

she is not that innocent in this.

 

The same thing can be said about Hawke, Varric, and the rest of the clan who knew Anders was dangerous (almost killing a young mage girl who was about to be raped) and was going downhill fast.  For his own good he should have been turned in by the end of chapter 2.  This is especially true of Hawke who tells Anders to move on after almost killing or killing that girl.

[LiquidLyrium]

Actually I dislike Orsino for entirely different reasons than the OP and I find it baffling that Orsino was called 'power hungry.' I think, at most, he wanted fair treatment and at least some autonomy for mages in the Gallows. 

Reason the first: Protecting Quentin. What the **** man.

 

Orsino absolutely knew what type of research Quentin was doing. Orsino was fascinated by it and contragulates Quentin in their correspondance. Orsino absolutely knew that people were being sacrificed in the name of said research. 
 

I have also long suspected that Mharen was actually sent to Quentin by Orsino. Probably in the name of 'greater good for mages' because she was loyal to the Circle, and maybe she found something out that would have made Meredith crack down even harder if she'd reported it. How strongly I believe this depends on how I'm feeling on any particular day, but it's a suspicion I've never been able to quite shake off.

 

Reason the second: Orsino knowing what a harvester is and how to become one. I realize a LOT of people skipped Golems of Amgarrak, but I actually played it. Once.

 

And I had never been angrier at Orsino after playing it.

 

I don't remember all the particulars because it's been so long, but the Harvester is vile. How it was created is vile. How it was researched and developed was vile. Everything surrounding it was vile and there is really almost no way Orsino could know about such a thing, even with Quentin's help unless he was very specifically looking for it.

 

If you side with Meredith, she says Orsino 'did not conjure such a ritual up out of thin air' and she's right. It is incredibly abhorrent magic and frankly I don't think Quentin has anything to do with Orsino knowing how to do that.

[Sir DeLoria]

Anders is an ally and a friend

No

[TheLastArchivist]

During my first playthrough, I always thought of him as someone that is genuinely fighting for the mages under him. Even after he turned on me even though all I ever done was to help and support him.

 

After a third playthrough, I realize that he is nothing but a power-hungry bas**** who uses the mages' plight as a means to justify his power-hungry views.

 

I mean he tried to riot people against Meredith (and the peace of Kirkwall), consulted with a horrible and terrible serial killer Blood Mage (way before Meredith gone completely crazy), turned into a Harvester no matter what and threaten to kill your sister. And he has no sob story or magical items controling him like Meredith does.

 

I should have put him to death long ago.

 

It appears that Elves should never gain power, once they do, they become crazy. Fiona and Orsino are few elves that rose to prominent roles and they are all crazy and power hungry.

Dude, but...but what if he only went batshit crazy for plot reasons?

 

I mean, people already criticized the lyrium idol plot twist as being the reason why Meredith turns on you. It was the lamest excuse for an ending ever. The same thing could've happened to Orsino's development. He only betrays you and turns into that gruesome blob of dead bodies because Bioware couldn't think of a better reason for his betrayal.

 

The two betrayals both stemmed from the same lame attempt to justify neither Orsino, nor Meredith surviving the battle of Kirkwall. So everything you know about elves being in power -or mages or templars, for that matter- is false, if you take the ending of DA2 into account. See the problem here?

 

Whenever I have to decide who will I be defending, I leave the last few moments of the game out of it. Nevermind who you defend, you'l always feel betrayed. And you'll think none of them deserved your support. Which is why I judge based on my Hawke's profile.

If I've established beforehand that he's an apostate, then I'll play the game according to this parameter. If he's a rogue or a warrior, then he might come to defend the mages because of his sister. Or he might come to agree with the Templars after his confrontations with blood mages and come to consider apostates a threat to Kirkwall.

 

It all depends on what you establish as your Hawke's personal truth from the start. Orsino and Meredith both become erratic near the ending, to the point their behaviour is no longer convncent. To make it worse, the game doesn't allow you any other choice rather than go along with their madness, waiting to be stabbed in the back. So choose. Kill innocent mages amongst the dangerous ones or protect them from the Templar Order, risking to allow blood mages to survive? The truth is that, by the end, there are no more choices. You just have to navigate through the shitstorm as best as you can.

[INQUISITOR/Accelerator]

I'm Totally on youre side guys, i honestly though that he was a good man until act 3 and the events happening/uncovering arround him I mean sure Meredith was paranoid beyond good even before the Lyrium Idol, but after you could pretty much blame anything( at least the extremeness) i mean we've see'n what it did to Bartrand , he seriously gone full crazy, so you should pretty much can tell how big the impact off Merediths Paranoia and other issue's should have been, i  seriously could only Lol at the moment where she tells us right in the face after helpin' her all the way up to the end that she thinks we might be the big bad of the whole events

(what isn't even that wrong after all we help'ed Anders) but dont get me started with that ****** after honorouly becoming a Grey Warden and with that a free mage

running away like a whimp, lets face it Anders just a nuissance all the time i mean he isn't satisfied with anything or better say'ed he doesn't understand reality he lives in that phantasy candyland of his, where he doesn't need to follow any rules and you doesn't honor anything (like a lifetime codex of the grey wardens) dont take responsibility and just do what ever the f*** you want in, other words anarchy or something that just doesn't work and will never

[Silfren]

The Grand Cleric is the boss of the Knight-Commander and could replace the KC as and when she pleases.

 

In my opinion, she is so lousy that she did not even bother to sack the two idiots and replace them. She even promoted a stupid racist Sister to Mother and then did not bat an eyelid when the said Mother is killed right in the Chantry.

 

That, and other things she did.  Where some people see an attempt at moderation, or neutrality, and others see incompetence, I see political machinations.  I couldn't really have said what, precisely, Elthina was up to, but I don't think she was some sweet, innocent old lady who was just trying to maintain balance, or too old to properly handle matters.  I think she knew exactly what she was doing.  

 

The fact of how she reacts to Petrice, whom, yes, she DID promote, and how Petrice reacts to her, more importantly, is one of the most telling things about her.  Petrice fully expected to be supported by the Grand Cleric and is shocked nearly speechless when Elthina turns her back.  And that eery way that Elthina takes it in stride when/if Petrice is murdered by the Qunari.  All the signs point toward Elthina being shrewd enough to hide behind the facade of public perception and using it to her advantage while she manipulates everyone.

[TEWR]

Plot twist: Elthina was Flemeth all along.

 

EDIT: Though I say that in jest, it.... actually would make sense....

[dragonflight288]

And do what they Templars say, and get forced into the Narrowing, and never practice blood magic, and never leave the CIrcle without permission, and get forced to leave your home to actually join the Circle once found.... the list goes on.

 

If that isn't slavery, I don't know what is.

 

Hmmm.

 

I think the original Nevarran Accord needs to be brought up here. 

 

According to History of the Chantry, Chapter 4, the mages once were forced into servitude by the Chantry to keep the candles in the cathedrals lit and the lofts clean, pretty much they were glorified janitors, and that was all they were allowed to use magic for. To the surprise of no one, except the Divine, they locked themselves up in the loft and peacefully protested, and the Divine wanted to call an Exalted March on her own Cathedral, but her templars talked her down.

 

Under the original agreement, mages would separate themselves from society, but would be free to govern themselves with a council of senior magi, and they would be allowed to study magic as they chose, but they would live under the watch of the templars who would, as Gregoire says in Origins, watch and advice, but the day to day function of the Circle's would be run by the mages themselves. 

 

It's not exactly slavery, when the mages themselves set up a system where they get to choose their way, and separated themselves from society with the templars keeping watch to keep abominations and blood mages away from people.

 

Now, having said that, I think it's also very safe to say that the Circle's no longer, before they split, actually follow the Nevarran Accord. I don't know where along the line templars learned how to use the Rite of Tranquility, but it and the Right of Annulment have shifted the balance of power from the mages within the Circle's to the Chantry and the templars, so the mages live and die on the templars and the chantry's whim, and the templars even talk about killing mages with glee, and a huge 'us or them' mindset has developed. 

 

Add in the utter lack of scrutiny the templars actually seem to fall under, the failsafe regulations meant to keep the templars from having too much power over mages in the Circle's are quite lacking. Sure, in order to force tranquility on an appentice, you need the First Enchanter's AND the Knight-Commander's approval, and apprentices have to be brought back to the Circle if they run away, but Alrik showed a complete lack of oversight. Not just because of what he was doing and he was keeping it secret from Meredith, but all Meredith would have had to do was look at the number of tranquil, see who is tranquil, and then look at her own records to know that her templars were illegally tranquilizing mages and that would be calls for investigating them, or even calling in the Seekers, yet nothing was done for years. And if mages cry foul, they have no one to complain to. 

 

And in Kirkwall, we see mages can get beaten just for talking to visiting civilians as an official policy. 

 

This is not the original Nevarran Accord as was first agreed. I'm not sure I say mages are slaves, but they are imprisoned, and the conditions have been gradually getting worse for them over the centuries as the templars gained more power over their lives, and more authority over when to kill mages,  and it's come to a point that I feel like the templars as an order have forfeited their right to supervise mages because too many of them, and the culture established by the Chantry in its position to mages and magic, alongside so many templars and seekers choosing to abandon the chantry for idealistic reasons on where they think magic should be, that it's become the Stanford Prison Experiment. 

 

Mages are dangerous, to themselves and to those around them when not trained. But they are also people who at the very least deserve to be treated with dignity, which the templars have been decreasing more and more over time, to the point where they are no longer seen as people and are nothing more than weapons, or even cursed in the sight of the Maker for the high crime of existing. And this attitude is unacceptable, especially by those whose mandate also includes protecting these same people.

 

I often say I'm pro-mage, but I think it's actually more accurate to say I'm pro-reform. 

[dragonflight288]

You're splitting hairs massively, and wrongly.

 

I believe in intent being more important than the means in general, with a few blatant exceptions. Blood magic is not evil, it is simply feared for it's obvious potential stealthy domination.

 

Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

 

Hmm, I'm going to interject into this conversation here. 

 

There is a saying, "the path to hell is paved with good intentions." 

 

Now, I'm not saying intent is wrong, nor am I saying it's unjustifiable, but if the overall results do not, or cannot reflect the intended consequences, then it doesn't matter what the intention is if the action itself makes things worse. 

[Meltemph]

I dunno, after playing through the game again, Orsino came across to me as a pretty incompetent first enchanter, turned a blind eye to mage corruption because Meredith was a wack job, which made the mages more corrupt, which made Meredith more crazy, which made Orsino cover up more bad stuff(which seemed to corrupt him over time as well).

 

However, I think the blame doesnt actually lie with Meredith or Orsino specifically, at all. If you go through the game, between how thin the veil in Kirkwall was, how there were MULTIPLE trapped demons trapped under the city(thanks to tevinter) Legacy(with Corph being close under to the city, potentially adding even more unhealthy temptations to mages in the fade), and how thin the veil was Kirkwall will continually screw mages over as well as everyone else.

 

I think there is enough there to come to the conclusion this had less to do with politics and a lot more to do with the stuff happening underneath the stupid city. So while the political stances of the Circle, Chantry, and Templar are interesting arguments; in relation to kirkwall they require more nuance, imo. Yes, the story in DA2 felt very rushed, but I think there is enough there to explain, while even if you think Orsino doing what he did was completely out of character, why it still made relative sense, considering the massive disadvantage mages are at simply living in Kirkwall. 

[Bardox9]

Orsino...This is what happens when a Libertarian gets control of a Circle. A a weak minded one at that... Everything falls apart. The resurgence of the inquisition can be laid entirely at his feet.

[WarriorOfLight999]

I don't agree with you.

 

Doesn't Anders bear a great deal of responsibility? Or Meredith and the Templars, who are practically dominating the political process in Kirkwall? How about Lambert and the Seekers, or the mages who rushed too quickly to rebel against the Chantry?

 

With respect, your oversimplification of who bears responsibility does no justice to the situation.

[boissiere]

In my opinion, there is a lot of little problems that led to the biggest one and the events of the last year in Kirkwall.

Yes there were some blood mages like Quentin and Orsino let him under cover - he said in order not to make his fellow mages to suffer too much. Yes such a protection is detrimental for the relationships between mages and templars. It is the same for Anders. But it is also true that a lot of templars were clearly increasing the fear of mages that thought they are not any other options that turning in blood mages for defending themselves. It is true that blood magic can't be resisted easily by templars. If you see, in act 1, the relationships between Thrask and Karas (act of mercy), you easily understand that all people have their own sins and the whole led to the tragedy! And, unfortunatly for him, it is his dispair that led Anders to the no return point with the chantry. Killing indiscriminatively is never the best choice either. I think Meredith, even in act 1, made mages suffer and encouraged her templars to threaten mages (do you remember Thrask's daughter?) However, there is one point I'm not completly sure, it was about Wilmod and Keran and how apostates managed to incorporate some demons inside templars (Wilmod for example). Was Wilmod a mage? According to Cullen, he wasn't and that was a lot of questions for me.

[Meltemph]

In my opinion, there is a lot of little problems that led to the biggest one and the events of the last year in Kirkwall.

Yes there were some blood mages like Quentin and Orsino let him under cover - he said in order not to make his fellow mages to suffer too much. Yes such a protection is detrimental for the relationships between mages and templars. It is the same for Anders. But it is also true that a lot of templars were clearly increasing the fear of mages that thought they are not any other options that turning in blood mages for defending themselves. It is true that blood magic can't be resisted easily by templars. If you see, in act 1, the relationships between Thrask and Karas (act of mercy), you easily understand that all people have their own sins and the whole led to the tragedy! And, unfortunatly for him, it is his dispair that led Anders to the no return point with the chantry. Killing indiscriminatively is never the best choice either. I think Meredith, even in act 1, made mages suffer and encouraged her templars to threaten mages (do you remember Thrask's daughter?) However, there is one point I'm not completly sure, it was about Wilmod and Keran and how apostates managed to incorporate some demons inside templars (Wilmod for example). Was Wilmod a mage? According to Cullen, he wasn't and that was a lot of questions for me.

I think the templars had good reason to be fearful, I think Kirkwall had more of an issue then normal with blood magic. The problem was, everyone was trying to blame each other, instead of realizing how incredibly thin the veil is in kirkwall and all the demons trapped under the city. Combine this with Corph from legacy being incredibly close to kirkwall, with his dreams effecting the all sorts of things and you have a reciprocity for disaster. Specially when you throw Anders into the mix, someone who is even more sensitive then normal mages around weak points in the veil. Kirkwall, with everything that has been going on in Thedas was destined to blow up at some point. Combined with the politics going on with the chantry, templars, qunari, and mages at the time and it is clear there was a massive mess brewing. Templars needed to fix or control the issues with the veil and all the trapped demons and before fixing the blood magic issue.

[DahkWaltz]

Honestly?  I'm just annoyed that Orsino could be up for debate.  He had very little screen time in game to really be sort of a player in the Grand Game.  It felt like his 'dark connections' with the infamous killer felt forced.  Sort of like Meredith had to one up and show Hawke that even Orsino was an ass.

 

If we really dig into the story, it felt like everything was pushing Hawke into giving Kirkwall the finger and say 'FU, I'm going home! to LOTHERING.  It might be nothing but smolders, but its better than here!!'

[DahkWaltz]

In all seriousness though.  Take a note one the Four Powers in Act III:

 

The Circle, the Templars, the Chantry, and the Champion (and his/her team of misfits)

 

These are the four swaying powers, each one has strength in their own accord, though some were weakening and another was too focused on the Magi and Templar desput that they weren't there to actually do their job.

 

Everyone talks about how the Circle is being oppressed, and how the Templars are assholes and the Chantry itself is being very useless except for it's random hatred for the Qun (which ended SOOO well...)

 

But what about the people?  The Feraldons of Lowtown and Darktown, the Kirkwallens who were nothing short than innocent to the situations that be.  

 

Who's protecting them?  Who's protecting them from the situation that be, and of all the situations, one would wonder how the Kirkwall rebellion affect the poor souls who never could get the fortune to head back to Feraldon.  

 

Let's face it, I'm going to rub my temples at the entirety of the Templar/Mage conflict because in the end, the damage was done, and the people suffered equally to those of the three factions.  And yeah, to hell with the nobles, I'm talking about the guys who were trying to stay out of the conflict only for their houses to be burned. 

 

And instead of being the freaking CHAMPION that you're suppose to be, instead you have to choose a side.  instead of taking out Meredith and Orsino both without the least amount of bloodshed, you're forced to basically take them both out.

 

And yeah, the Inquisitor, OR the Hero of Feraldon could have done better, but let's face it,  Hawke was rogue to riches, and lacked any good political power.  He only had one job, and the morons of Kirkwall couldn't even give him that chance to do the right thing in the end.

[StarcloudSWG]

The big problem for both Meredith and Orsino.. is that Kirkwall was the absolute worst place in the world to put a Mage Circle.

 

The lore hints at it. The letters about the secret history of Kirkwall. All the blood that was spilled for blood magic, permanently weakening the Veil there. The Forgotten One, Hybris, lairing there. I suspect that Kirkwall is the physical location where the Magisters of Tevinter attempted to breach the Fade and enter the Black City.

[Leliana]

On my first Hawke I supported the mages because I genuinely felt bad for them, and Meredith quickly struck me as crazy but when Orsino resorted to blood magic (not only that but he turned into a ****** harvester), to put it lightly I was pissed. Don't come at me with the old 'mages are pushed to resort to things like blood magic' well that may be the case but Orsino is a First Enchanter and has responsibilities to live up to.

[Ice Cold J]

I'm glad that some people have brought up Meredith's past.

 

I JUST today, after three playthroughs, got to hear her backstory and it really puts all of what she's doing and why into perspective.

 

Not to say she is right, but she does have the city's best interests in mind.

[TEWR]

Orsino...This is what happens when a Libertarian gets control of a Circle. A a weak minded one at that... Everything falls apart. The resurgence of the inquisition can be laid entirely at his feet.

 

Except Orsino isn't a Libertarian. He's not against the Chantry-controlled Circles -- only how Meredith is running the Circles -- and Elthina cites him as a reasonable man. If anything, he's a Lucrosian due to getting the Circles more money or an Aequitarian. Or both.