231 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Okay, two blood mages then. They tend to fall pretty easily for me though, so you don't really pay attention to the names as much.

 

Hardly the cabal of maleficarum MisterJB made them out to be, here and in the past.

[KaiserShep]

Um... Wrong. The hightown meeting actually has a blood mage in their group. And they're completely capable of doing that really strong blood magic spell that can wipe your whole party out in seconds on harder difficulties if everyone is clustered, so the enemy isn't just called a blood mage either... They ARE one. I guess you forgot about the enemy types for that quest.

 

There is no enemy labeled "Blood Mage" in the Hightown Estates battle. They're all listed as "Circle Mage", and that includes the one with the biggest health pool who fights alongside the Templar Lieutenant. The low-health mages that come from behind and from that little alleyway in the estates courtyard are also labeled exactly the same. As for the powerful spell, I'm not sure which one you're talking about, but it seems to me that all mage enemies have powerful wipe-out spells on higher difficulties, with the only real difference is that the bloodmages summon demons or corpses to aid them.

[andy6915]

There is no enemy labeled "Blood Mage" in the Hightown Estates battle. They're all listed as "Circle Mage", and that includes the one with the biggest health pool who fights alongside the Templar Lieutenant. The low-health mages that come from behind and from that little alleyway in the estates courtyard are also labeled exactly the same. As for the powerful spell, I'm not sure which one you're talking about, but it seems to me that all mage enemies have powerful wipe-out spells on higher difficulties, with the only real difference is that the bloodmages summon demons or corpses to aid them.

 

You're wrong. I just finished that section a week or so ago, I remember very clearly that there's a blood mage in that group. I damn near got a gameover because of the blood mage in that battle because everyone grouped together and nearly died to that spinning red vortex thing that blood mages love to do constantly. If it isn't labeled as such on the enemy names, that doesn't change the fact that one was a blood mage.

[KaiserShep]

If the gameplay reflects it, then so be it, but the labeling is all the same. If there is a bloodmage that's actually named such and I missed it, it's one of the "trash" lower tier mages, because mage that's equivalent with the Templar Lieutenant is labeled as "Circle". I typically don't play on higher difficulties, so I never had this attack happen to me. Curiously, on any difficulty, Huon will use that red vortex, while Hadriana, who is a bloodmage, typically uses a similar attack as the Saarebas, but I never recalled getting that vortex either, despite taking a while to kill her. I'm wondering if this was one of those artifacts of DA2's rushed development or not.

[andy6915]

If the gameplay reflects it, then so be it, but the labeling is all the same. If there is a bloodmage that's actually named such and I missed it, it's one of the "trash" lower tier mages, because mage that's equivalent with the Templar Lieutenant is labeled as "Circle". I typically don't play on higher difficulties, so I never had this attack happen to me. Curiously, on any difficulty, Huon will use that red vortex, while Hadriana, who is a bloodmage, typically uses a similar attack as the Saarebas, but I never recalled getting that vortex either, despite taking a while to kill her. I'm wondering if this was one of those artifacts of DA2's rushed development or not.

 

The circle mage is the one, he has the big health bar. He has that annoying long range ice attack as well. I will confess that my memory could be off despite it being so vivid. Human memory is rather... Sketchy. Like, in general. I've done research into human memory, and it's actually really fallible and is quite easy to literally make up fake memories without even meaning to that are indiscernible from real memories. So I could be mistaken. But I remember both the attack and the actual thought of "Orsino was right about there being blood mages it seems" after eating said attack. But I just watched several videos on Youtube of that part, and he didn't use a blood magic attack once in any of them.

 

So... Unsure

[KaiserShep]

I've given up on YouTube videos to really determine how enemies behave, because people seem to be able to wipe out enemies' health bars in seconds flat so they don't even have time to do anything.

[andy6915]

I've given up on YouTube videos to really determine how enemies behave, because people seem to be able to wipe out enemies' health bars in seconds flat so they don't even have time to do anything.

 

I encountered that problem. It's all these damn scrubs playing on casual and normal that causes it. Thankfully I got some better finds once I specified nightmare playthroughs, that started getting me some vids where the mage lasted a bit.

[Mykel54]

" I was one of the foremost expert in the Kirkwall Circle "

 

https://youtu.be/Dcz3IyUFE3A?t=190

 

I studied demon-binding under the great Orsino himself!

 

The kirkwall circle was incredibly corrupt and Orsino was the main person responsible for it. I have no issues with Meredith annuling the circle in DA2 after seeing what an awful place full of bloodmages and abominations it was.

[dragonflight288]

" I was one of the foremost expert in the Kirkwall Circle "

 

https://youtu.be/Dcz3IyUFE3A?t=190

 

I studied demon-binding under the great Orsino himself!

 

The kirkwall circle was incredibly corrupt and Orsino was the main person responsible for it. I have no issues with Meredith annuling the circle in DA2 after seeing what an awful place full of bloodmages and abominations it was.

 

So, does Summoning Science in Origins, summoning hostile spirits under the observation of senior enchanters also count?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The kirkwall circle was incredibly corrupt and Orsino was the main person responsible for it. I have no issues with Meredith annuling the circle in DA2 after seeing what an awful place full of bloodmages and abominations it was.

 

And yet, I agree with this too.

 

Truly a no-win situation at the end. Meredith and the better part of her Templar order were bad, but so was Orsino and the better part of the Circle.

 

It comes down to the post-battle implications and the Hawke in question for me to decide whose side to take. Gaylord, my mage, felt like he could make things better himself and recognized he could ride the Templars' support to the seat of Viscount (ala Vivienne). Ilda, my killer angel, was kind of engaged in an epic estrogen-battle with Meredith from the start. Bethany's life was on the line there, too. And she hated pretty much everything about Kirkwall, so, bringing the city to its knees was just more reason for her.

[KaiserShep]

So, does Summoning Science in Origins, summoning hostile spirits under the observation of senior enchanters also count?

 

No, because you had to run back and forth touching everything. OK now run down the hall and touch that Bestiary book, now touch the statue, not touch the table!

[TEWR]

No, because you had to run back and forth touching everything. OK now run down the hall and touch that Bestiary book, now touch the statue, not touch the table!

 

I still hate that quest for how incredibly tedious it is.

[KaiserShep]

I still hate that quest for how incredibly tedious it is.

 I hate it, yet I always do it in every playthrough. I didn't even bother trying to figure it out myself I just went to the wiki to get it done. What a terrible mini quest lol.

[The Baconer]

Truly a no-win situation at the end. Meredith and the better part of her Templar order were bad, but so was Orsino and the better part of the Circle.

 

If she wants an Annulment, let it be by the book.

 

Casualties on the streets and collateral damage happened because she made it so. In the end, a Viscount Hawke will learn why being an enabler to the slimy-ass Kirkwall Templars was not a good idea.

[dragonflight288]

No, because you had to run back and forth touching everything. OK now run down the hall and touch that Bestiary book, now touch the statue, not touch the table!

 

But the very implication of that quest shows that senior enchanters teach apprentices how to summon hostile spirits. Heck, the final summon in the book outright says that it should not be done without a senior enchanter present. 

 

Even if it's VERY tedious, the very implication of that quest tells us that the Circle teaches mages how to summon spirits. 

 

Thus, that idiot who claims to be the foremost expert on demonology from Kirkwall learning from Orsino doesn't seem to be an indicator of Kirkwall's corruption.

 

It could easily be, but the argument could just as easily be that he learned how to summon and bind demons so they don't kill you, and he's too proud to admit that he didn't summon the spirit he thought he did.

 

Anywho, just playing devil's advocate here. That guy is still an idiot. 

[MisterJB]

Okay, two blood mages then. They tend to fall pretty easily for me though, so you don't really pay attention to the names as much.

 

Hardly the cabal of maleficarum MisterJB made them out to be, here and in the past.

 

The only two named mage characters in that cabal; that is to say, those who matter; are blood mages. Remember Alain?

And some of the other mages sided with an Abomination against the Champion of Kirkwall.

Some of the Templars too, in fact which speaks of the insanity of the people involved in this plot.
 

 

 

 

[Lady Artifice]

I think it becomes very easy to condemn Orsino after that badly implemented Harvester thing, and it casts a shadow over the sense of desperation that had built in the Circle on behalf of both the Mages and the Templars. Both sides suffered abuses under Meredith's reign of terror, and both sides took to rebellion. 

 

That seems to be forgotten a lot when comparing the two of them. 

[TEWR]

The only two named mage characters in that cabal; that is to say, those who matter; are blood mages. Remember Alain?

And some of the other mages sided with an Abomination against the Champion of Kirkwall.

Some of the Templars too, in fact which speaks of the insanity of the people involved in this plot.
 

 

Alain depends entirely on if you view the mere use of blood magic, no matter what the circumstances, as marking one as being one for the rest of their life. In his case, he used blood magic one time in his life to undo what Grace did.

 

Would Finn also count, because he views the use of Ariane's blood as being a definite grey area he wishes to keep hidden from the Templars? What about Malcolm Hawke?

 

As for Grace, I got the sense that she became an Abomination during that battle, rather then having been one the whole time.

 

Regardless, I think you and I can both agree that the quest was poorly written for pro-mage Hawkes for reasons I said on page six.

 

 

The narrative of that quest admittedly didn't help, given that it has this conspiracy as not trusting Orsino, but the game had Thrask agreeing with the First Enchanter earlier if talked to in the Gallows, mentioning how he knows we're siding with Orsino, but then when we confront him go "I dunno why you're supporting Meredith dude".

 

It's clear it was written from a pro-Templar point of view, as that's the only way the quest, as written, makes sense.

 

Like it would've made more sense for the conspiracy to want Orsino to be in the dark so he could maintain plausible deniability, rather then not trusting him in general considering he's anti-Meredith which is the core thing this conspiracy is going for.

 

In essence, they trust him to have their backs, but figure if they fail it's better that the First Enchanter not be involved so it doesn't condemn the Circle itself.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If she wants an Annulment, let it be by the book.

 

With the Grand Cleric dead, Meredith was within her rights to call for the RoA.

 

That's why Anders targeted her. He wanted the ensuing war as much as the Knight-Commander, only difference was which side they were on.

 

Casualties on the streets and collateral damage happened because she made it so. In the end, a Viscount Hawke will learn why being an enabler to the slimy-ass Kirkwall Templars was not a good idea.

 

Eh, not really. I will not disagree that she often aggravated the mages and drove them to the point, but there were cases of demons/abominations/blood-magic that took place without Templar provocation nonetheless. Worse yet, we know that Orsino covered up Quintin, for all we know there may have been many others.

 

Did you notice how all three of the gangs running amok in Act 3 were influenced by some form of corrupt magic? One is led by an apostate and composed of "slave hunters," another is a gang following a desire demon, another is led by a blood-mage and composed of thralls. That these things reared their heads after the Templars were ordered to carry out the RoA is not regrettable. Those were public-security threats being neutralized. Only one thing to do with demons/maleficar.

 

It's the slimy-ass Templars or the slimy-ass mages, in the end. If my decision came down solely to that (it does not) then it is a fairly easy decision. A bad Templar is just a brute. A bad mage is something way worse than that and cannot even be rehabilitated.

[MisterJB]

He had to have studied in order to be able to counter Grace's spell.

 

But sure, that quest should have happened differently for pro-mage Hawkes. For instance, Thrask approachs you, tells you what they are doing and gives you the opportunity to join. Once you reach the meeting place, Grace loses her sh*t due her hatred for Hawke.

Or, even better, you can actually work with the conspiracy for multiple quests in Act 3. Eventually, Thrask proposes Hawke become Viscount once Meredith has been removed and then Grace loses her sh*t.

 

Anyway, I haven't had the time to respond to the larger posts in the previous pages but I intend to.

 

 

 

[TEWR]

 

With the Grand Cleric dead, Meredith was within her rights to call for the RoA.

 

From a purely legal chain-of-command standpoint, sure, though not from an ethical/moral one and she certainly lacked sufficient grounds to call for an RoA on the mages just because of Anders.

 

 

Did you notice how all three of the gangs running amok in Act 3 were influenced by some form of corrupt magic? One is led by an apostate and composed of "slave hunters," another is a gang following a desire demon, another is led by a blood-mage and composed of thralls.

 

I did, though I also noticed that the Templars failed to do anything about the Hightown gang which had at least 2-3 blood mages per large group in an area. The others I can excuse because as far as anyone knew they were simply gangs which would merit simple concern from the City Guard, but as the City Guard would've been going up against Blood Mages and thralls, they surely would've informed the Templars of it and requested assistance, yet they get none. Indeed, Aveline makes it a point to say that she's requisitioned some Templars for assistance but has been denied (I believe this was in Act 2 though).

 

Says a lot about their stance towards the city, if when they go on about protecting it from maleficarum and such they're not actually doing anything about those threats.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

From a purely legal chain-of-command standpoint, sure, though not from an ethical/moral one

 

meh. 
 

and she certainly lacked sufficient grounds to call for an RoA on the mages just because of Anders.

 

She was not wrong, though, and Hawke knows -- by virtue of "Best Served Cold" -- that the Circle is just about hopelessly corrupt.

 

Orsino even admits that it would give Meredith everything she would need to invoke the RoA. If you sided with her in the rally, then she knows about it.

 

I did, though I also noticed that the Templars failed to do anything about the Hightown gang which had at least 2-3 blood mages per large group in an area. The others I can excuse because as far as anyone knew they were simply gangs which would merit simple concern from the City Guard, but as the City Guard would've been going up against Blood Mages and thralls, they surely would've informed the Templars of it and requested assistance, yet they get none. Indeed, Aveline makes it a point to say that she's requisitioned some Templars for assistance but has been denied (I believe this was in Act 2 though).

 

Yup, Meredith failed to do her job. Still, that the RoA weeded this out is a point in its favor, not against it.

[KaiserShep]

But the very implication of that quest shows that senior enchanters teach apprentices how to summon hostile spirits. Heck, the final summon in the book outright says that it should not be done without a senior enchanter present. 

 

Even if it's VERY tedious, the very implication of that quest tells us that the Circle teaches mages how to summon spirits. 

 

Thus, that idiot who claims to be the foremost expert on demonology from Kirkwall learning from Orsino doesn't seem to be an indicator of Kirkwall's corruption.

 

It could easily be, but the argument could just as easily be that he learned how to summon and bind demons so they don't kill you, and he's too proud to admit that he didn't summon the spirit he thought he did.

 

Anywho, just playing devil's advocate here. That guy is still an idiot. 

 

I like how that quest would have had the mages summon a blighted bear in the library. Like oh joy, a bear monster! Enjoy, apprentices!

[The Baconer]

With the Grand Cleric dead, Meredith was within her rights to call for the RoA.

 

That's why Anders targeted her. He wanted the ensuing war as much as the Knight-Commander, only difference was which side they were on.

 

She had the authority, but not the justification. If there is sufficient evidence of corruption within the Circle, then she needs to find it and take suitable action. That is her job, not trying to appease a lynch mob and putting the city in danger as a consequence.

 

The only one stopping Meredith from searching the Circle was Meredith.

 

 

Eh, not really. I will not disagree that she often aggravated the mages and drove them to the point, but there were cases of demons/abominations/blood-magic that took place without Templar provocation nonetheless. Worse yet, we know that Orsino covered up Quintin, for all we know there may have been many others.

 

That's not what I'm talking about. When she declared that the Rite was in effect, while acknowledging that she knew the Circle had nothing to do with it, she instigated a major conflict directly on the streets when the mages would inevitably retaliate (because why shouldn't they?). She is directly responsible for the civilian casualties (and further casualties from the city guard) that occurred during the battle. These are people she's supposed to be sheltering from dangerous magic.

 

Of course, I prefer not to ally with the Templars out of expedience. If the Circle is supposed to be a mutually-beneficial system for mages and non-mages in the interest of maintaining order, people should be reminded of the stakes when a Circle is as improperly managed as the Gallows.

[Mykel54]

She had the authority, but not the justification. If there is sufficient evidence of corruption within the Circle, then she needs to find it and take suitable action. That is her job, not trying to appease a lynch mob and putting the city in danger as a consequence.

 

The only one stopping Meredith from searching the Circle was Meredith.

 

But that is the whole point behind Meredith: she wants to purge the circle because she thinks it is corrupt, even before Anders blows the chantry. Why does she wants that? Because she sees bloodmages and abominations since Act 1, and while she can handle threats outside the circle (see Cullen investigating), she cannot touch mages inside the circle directly, because Orsino is ALWAYS using his powers to stop Meredith investigating.

 

"Can i search the tower for blood magic books?" "No you can´t".

Meredith suspected (correctly, based on the ending) that the corruption in the city was rooted in Kirkwall´s circle, and was annoyed at Orsino because he would not let her investigate the tower, he was boycotting her constantly. At the ending, even AFTER Anders blows up the chantry, Meredith offers Orsino the chance to surrender ("I will entertain a surrender") but he refuses because he is a moron who has a personal grudge with Meredith, and cares little about the mages (see him sacrificing others to become a Harvester and get his petty revenge on her).

 

Meredith cannot investigate the tower as she would want, so what she does is to put more and more restrictions on the circle - in act 3 people talk about how things have become harsher. She is working with what tools she has available, because Orsino won´t let her do the real thing she want. Once Anders blows up the chantry, it is just another proof that rogue mages are out of control, and finally she has the justification to override Orsino´s authority and purge the circle tower.

 

One can argue what is the root of the problem, like Cassandra does in DAI, why did Kirkwall circle mages started using bloodmagic? was it to fight agaisnt the abuses of the templars? (see Alrik) Probably, and that just started a snowball, with Orsino hiding the stuff and Meredith being frustrated and hardening the grip. Remember that in Kirkwall the templars are practically the rulers of the city, the viscount is a nominal figure, the templars can get away with a lot in that city, there was very little oversight for them.

 

I could sympathise with Meredith way more that i ever could with Orsino.