231 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

At the ending, even AFTER Anders blows up the chantry, Meredith offers Orsino the chance to surrender ("I will entertain a surrender") but he refuses because he is a moron who has a personal grudge with Meredith, and cares little about the mages (see him sacrificing others to become a Harvester and get his petty revenge on her).

 

In my playthrough, Orsino offered a surrender and insisted that Meredith search the tower, asking only that she not continue with the plan to kill them all, but Meredith refused. She said that she'll "entertain" the idea, but she certainly doesn't agree to it. One reason she gave at that point was that even if she decided to go that way, the people of Kirkwall would demand retribution.

[Jaison1986]

In my playthrough, Orsino offered a surrender and insisted that Meredith search the tower, asking only that she not continue with the plan to kill them all, but Meredith refused. She said that she'll "entertain" the idea, but she certainly doesn't agree to it. One reason she gave at that point was that even if she decided to go that way, the people of Kirkwall would demand retribution.

 

And some leader she was. True authority figures don't give in to public hysteria. Even if the people wished for retribuition, wich was nothing but an assumption from Meredith, it was her role as leader of Kirkwall to subdue anyone trying to incite chaos. Meredith showed her insanity the moment she demanded the annulment of the circle. When the obvious course of action was to arrest or execute Anders, who openly addmited sole responsability for the attack, and then restore order to the panicked city.

[KaiserShep]

It's funny that everyone ignores Seabass when he insists that they can just deal with Anders rather than argue over the Circle.

[dragonflight288]

It's funny that everyone ignores Seabass when he insists that they can just deal with Anders rather than argue over the Circle.

 

And if Hawke chooses to spare Anders, Sebastian will go to Starkhave, raise an army and invade Kirkwall to punish anyone Anders may have associated with.

[The Baconer]

But that is the whole point behind Meredith: she wants to purge the circle because she thinks it is corrupt, even before Anders blows the chantry. Why does she wants that? Because she sees bloodmages and abominations since Act 1, and while she can handle threats outside the circle (see Cullen investigating), she cannot touch mages inside the circle directly, because Orsino is ALWAYS using his powers to stop Meredith investigating.

 

"Can i search the tower for blood magic books?" "No you can´t".

Meredith suspected (correctly, based on the ending) that the corruption in the city was rooted in Kirkwall´s circle, and was annoyed at Orsino because he would not let her investigate the tower, he was boycotting her constantly. At the ending, even AFTER Anders blows up the chantry, Meredith offers Orsino the chance to surrender ("I will entertain a surrender") but he refuses because he is a moron who has a personal grudge with Meredith, and cares little about the mages (see him sacrificing others to become a Harvester and get his petty revenge on her).

 

Again - nothing is stopping Meredith from searching the tower if she truly wants to. Orsino's impotent whinging can only be as effective as she lets it be, and if he escalates that to violent resistance against the search, he can only incriminate himself.

 

 

Meredith cannot investigate the tower as she would want, so what she does is to put more and more restrictions on the circle - in act 3 people talk about how things have become harsher. She is working with what tools she has available, because Orsino won´t let her do the real thing she want.

 

Meredith can do whatever she wants. She usurps the local government, she doles out Tranquilities like communion wafers for petty infractions. If she's already breaking every Circle regulation, why be cowed by Orsino?

 

 

Once Anders blows up the chantry, it is just another proof that rogue mages are out of control, and finally she has the justification to override Orsino´s authority and purge the circle tower.

 

How is that a justification? It's like purging the elves in the Alienage for something a Dalish elf did. Calling the Right over Ander's actions (and then promptly ignoring the guilty party) was only meant to satiate her demented bloodlust, it had nothing to do with her responsibilities as a Knight Commander.

[Br3admax]

In my playthrough, Orsino offered a surrender and insisted that Meredith search the tower, asking only that she not continue with the plan to kill them all, but Meredith refused. She said that she'll "entertain" the idea, but she certainly doesn't agree to it. One reason she gave at that point was that even if she decided to go that way, the people of Kirkwall would demand retribution.

Which is true. They would want retribution for the death of the Grand Cleric and would sack the Gallows regardless. There's also the fact that five minutes into the Annulment, the mages showed themselves to be far from novices with blood magic. There's already grounds to kill everyone there. 

[Jaison1986]

Which is true. They would want retribution for the death of the Grand Cleric and would sack the Gallows regardless. There's also the fact that five minutes into the Annulment, the mages showed themselves to be far from novices with blood magic. There's already grounds to kill everyone there. 

 

Since when templars do what an emotionally driven mod order them to? Their duty would be to stop people from attacking the Gallows then. Besides, Hawke kills blood mages in the gallows regardless of wich side they take. Killing everyone there is quite the overreaction. 

[Br3admax]

Since when templars do what an emotionally driven mod order them to? Their duty would be to stop people from attacking the Gallows then. 

Except there are more people than there are Templars, which takes away the numerical advantage they have over the mages. The only reason that the Circle system is even possible is that the much larger majority thinks they are safe from mages who are locked in towers. 

 

 

Besides, Hawke kills blood mages in the gallows regardless of wich side they take. Killing everyone there is quite the overreaction. 

It's not an over reaction when finding even a few blood mages is grounds for Annulment. The sheer number of them would be justification enough for wiping them all from the face of Thedas. 

[The Baconer]

Except there are more people than there are Templars, which takes away the numerical advantage they have over the mages.

 

This matters little, as the Gallows is a fortified construction that is isolated from the city by water.

[Br3admax]

This matters little, as the Gallows is a fortified construction that is isolated from the city by water.

Yeah, the city has boats, they probably aren't prepared for a siege, and finally dissension among the ranks over the Grand Cleric makes the Gallows being a "a fortified construction that is isolated from the city by water" pretty moot. 

[The Baconer]

Yeah, the city has boats, they probably aren't prepared for a siege, and finally dissension among the ranks over the Grand Cleric makes the Gallows being a "a fortified construction that is isolated from the city by water" pretty moot. 

 

Why would they not be prepared for a siege when the Gallows is a fortress? Any group endeavoring to try and kill the mages will have to cross the harbor, breach the gates, and assail the largest militant force in Kirkwall. No, b*tchslapped nobles and common rabble are not going to overtake the Gallows.

 

Now, insubordinate Templars do represent a significant threat, but they should not be appeased.

[dragonflight288]

Why would they not be prepared for a siege when the Gallows is a fortress? Any group endeavoring to try and kill the mages will have to cross the harbor, breach the gates, and assail the largest militant force in Kirkwall. No, b*tchslapped nobles and common rabble are not going to overtake the Gallows.

 

Now, insubordinate Templars do represent a significant threat, but they should not be appeased.

 

I would also like to point out, as its stated in the game by that Steward, the templars are the single largest armed force in the city.

 

Add in Aveline and the guard, the distance, water, and fortifications, I'm more than sure that if a mob formed, nothing would come of it, if put down as gently as possible.

 

Regardless of what the people demand, a templars duty is very clear. Protect the world from magic AND protect mages from the world. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Yeah, it's not like the Templars cannot hold off a bunch of commoners with pitchforks. They've seen a Qunari invasion. And it's their duty to.

 

 

At the same token, the argument can be made that the Circle was not really worth saving, at that point.

[Br3admax]

Why would they not be prepared for a siege when the Gallows is a fortress? 

Being a fortress does not make you prepared for a siege. 

 

Any group endeavoring to try and kill the mages will have to cross the harbor, breach the gates, and assail the largest militant force in Kirkwall.

Which would be divided, in disarray, watching mages, while simultaneously dealing with a large mob. This not long after being sacked by the Qunari, no three years is not a long recovery period.

 No, b*tchslapped nobles and common rabble are not going to overtake the Gallows.

The Templars are outnumbered in every way, as well as fractured, but no one's taking the Gallows? Okay. 

 

Now, insubordinate Templars do represent a significant threat, but they should not be appeased.

 

 

Considering Meredith has legal, moral, and logical leverage, yeah they should. Just as the mages have the right to defend themselves, she has the right to follow the law. When it suits her, in her case. 

[The Baconer]

 At the same token, the argument can be made that the Circle was not really worth saving, at that point.

 

Whether or not it was worth saving doesn't matter, they made their oaths. The law is the law; it is not something to be disposed of when emotions get heated or tweaked when it becomes inconvenient, otherwise it is worthless.

 

By all means, search the Circle and annul it if the findings deem it necessary, but declaring it in order to placate a lynch-mob? How do we continue to operate under the pretense of the Circle system protecting both mages and non-mages when something like this occurs? Why even participate in the system if such behavior is permitted and unpunished?

[The Baconer]

Being a fortress does not make you prepared for a siege.

 

When all you have to do is lock up and sit tight, yes it does. Pray tell, what are the common folk even going to ferry across the bay to tear down the Gallows' walls?

 

 

Which would be divided, in disarray, watching mages, while simultaneously dealing with a large mob. This not long after being sacked by the Qunari, no three years is not a long recovery period.

 

The Gallows did not suffer under the Qunari attack.

 

 

Considering Meredith has legal, moral, and logical leverage, yeah they should.

 

It is her responsibility to reign them in, not appease them. As is her responsibility as Knight Commander.

 

 

Just as the mages have the right to defend themselves, she has the right to follow the law. When it suits her, in her case. 

 

Saying "I have the right to follow the law only when it suits me" is not law, it's base anarchy. There's no reason to even acknowledge it as bearing any worth or legitimacy if that is the case.

[KaiserShep]

If a mob can influence the Templars to purge their circle, that shows a glaring weakness with this system. This means that under any circumstances, if an unruly mob that greatly outnumbers the Templars takes it into its collective heads that they feel like lynching, the Templars would have to abide by their wishes, regardless of there being no wrongdoing on the part of the mages in it. The whole mob rule thing is horsehit and I ain't buying.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Whether or not it was worth saving doesn't matter, they made their oaths. The law is the law; it is not something to be disposed of when emotions get heated or tweaked when it becomes inconvenient, otherwise it is worthless.

 

By all means, search the Circle and annul it if the findings deem it necessary, but declaring it in order to placate a lynch-mob? How do we continue to operate under the pretense of the Circle system protecting both mages and non-mages when something like this occurs? Why even participate in the system if such behavior is permitted and unpunished?

 

I agree, but it is kind of a moot point since grounds for annulment did exist and Meredith had reason to suspect it. I mean, there is dark magic running rampant in Kirkwall, and Orsino refuses to let the other part of the Circle investigate for any connection. What is she supposed to think, exactly?

[Riven326]

During my first playthrough, I always thought of him as someone that is genuinely fighting for the mages under him. Even after he turned on me even though all I ever done was to help and support him.

 

After a third playthrough, I realize that he is nothing but a power-hungry bas**** who uses the mages' plight as a means to justify his power-hungry views.

 

I mean he tried to riot people against Meredith (and the peace of Kirkwall), consulted with a horrible and terrible serial killer Blood Mage (way before Meredith gone completely crazy), turned into a Harvester no matter what and decided to kill everyone even if u help him. And he has no sob story or magical items controling him like Meredith does.

 

I should have put him to death long ago.

 

It appears that Elves should never gain power, once they do, they become crazy. Fiona and Orsino are few elves that rose to prominent roles and they are all crazy and power hungry.

The more time I spent in Kirkwall the more I leaned towards supporting the Templars. That's not me ignoring the bad templars that do exist in the order, but Kirkwall is literally bursting at the seams with blood magic. The two extremist views that exist on both sides are right and wrong in their own ways, but I believe the templar view is less wrong and is the one that should be supported despite Meredith's acquiring of the idol and it skewing her views and intentions.

 

Ideally I would support a more democratic process to the problem. But because of the immense danger magic poses to the rest of the world and it's people, I believe leaders like Meredith, who have that hardened resolve to see things through to the end no matter how morally reprehensible the solutions to the problem may be, is what Kirkwall needed the most during that time. And this is why I hate that the idol was even introduced. It sacrificed Meredith's character for a cheap twist in the story.

[The Baconer]

I agree, but it is kind of a moot point since grounds for annulment did exist and Meredith had reason to suspect it. I mean, there is dark magic running rampant in Kirkwall, and Orsino refuses to let the other part of the Circle investigate for any connection. What is she supposed to think, exactly?

 

She should search the Circle. Orsino can't do anything to stop her.

[MisterJB]

She should search the Circle. Orsino can't do anything to stop her.

He can take it up to Elthina, use it as evidence Meredith is unresonable and fanatical and dangerous and he is innocent like the sunrise and she can order her to stop or do nothing. If she does order it and Meredith persists, all she has to do is write to Val Royeaux explaining how a Knight Commander just failed to obey a direct order from a Grand Cleric.

The Divine, unwilling to let the Templars start thinking they can disobey the Chantry's authority, will quickly send Seekers to deal with the problem. And they will deal with it. One way or another.

[The Baconer]

He can take it up to Elthina, use it as evidence Meredith is unresonable and fanatical and dangerous and he is innocent like the sunrise and she can order her to stop or do nothing. If she does order it and Meredith persists, all she has to do is write to Val Royeaux explaining how a Knight Commander just failed to obey a direct order from a Grand Cleric.

The Divine, unwilling to let the Templars start thinking they can disobey the Chantry's authority, will quickly send Seekers to deal with the problem. And they will deal with it. One way or another.

 

Fantasy. Cassandra confirms that the Seekers were fine with Meredith's policies (especially if a search would have indeed yielded evidence of corruption), and a search of the tower wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket compared to the measures she had already taken. Elthina and Orsino were toothless.

[KaiserShep]

I dunno if I'd say that Elthina was toothless. As Grand Cleric, she could probably have leaned her weight against everyone and Meredith would not have been able to do anything about it without getting more attention. Elthina just chose to stay wishy washy about everything.

[MisterJB]

 

Yes, the simple act of Elthina placing herself against Meredith would have lead to conflict within the Templars and nobles wishing to see the Knight Commander removed flocking to her.

[The Baconer]

Yes, the simple act of Elthina placing herself against Meredith would have lead to conflict within the Templars and nobles wishing to see the Knight Commander removed flocking to her.

 

I can see Templars breaking their silence on Meredith's policies in general when given the opportunity (which is her own fault as Knight Commander), but I would see that happening after the search of the Circle had been conducted. They have absolutely no reason to oppose it. Heck, this would be happening just after a conspiracy of rogue Templars colluding with blood mages. Speaking out against the search would quite possibly be seen as incriminating.