15, give or take. Not all talents are active ones and the level cap in Origins is 25.
Say there are 15 stealth skills. When two rogues in Origins take all 15, they will both have the exact same abilities. When those two rogues are limited to 8, they have to make choices. Choices which may lead to the two picking almost entirely different skill loadouts.
More variety.
Fair enough. But you can still do more with the rogue in DAO, than you can in this game.15 is more than 8. Simple as that.
I'm saying that your internal picture and view of the bank that grants you the loan - in a sense, the one you observe - is a part of you. You don't see the bank as it actually physically is, the atoms and wave-coefficients that make up its structure, or even the workforce that makes up its staff, or the ideals that make up its policies. You observe it through a lens of your own biases, interests and the fundamental uselessness of the translation of the brain.
That's your character.
The character, a naked dude on the left. His motivations, personality, goals, views and mental capacities, and physical capabilities. That is the character. On the right are his allies, equipment, assets, and everything else that are outside aid.
That is how I view it.
What you are talking about is the choices he makes with the stuff I listed (on the left).
Fair enough. But you can still do more with the rogue in DAO, than you can in this game.15 is more than 8. Simple as that.
I'll probably prefer rogues in DA:I. imo DA:O rogues were pretty much warriors with backstab, lockpick and stealth.
I'll probably prefer rogues in DA:I. imo DA:O rogues were pretty much warriors with backstab, lockpick and stealth.
I agree. More options for different types of rogues would be ideal. Everyone being a ninja makes them different from the warrior, certainly. But it would have been fun to just play a lock expert, or a fast talking scoundrel too. Just being handed a full-blown anime hero, isn't that big of an improvement.
Fair enough. But you can still do more with the rogue in DAO, than you can in this game.15 is more than 8. Simple as that.
More variety in a single fight or more variety across multiple fights, or even playthroughs.
Either way, certainly not less variety.
More variety in a single fight or more variety across multiple fights, or even playthroughs.
Either way, certainly not less variety.
How is using 8 abilities more variety than 15? That makes no sense.
Variety across multiple fights, that one I can see. But that variety is only there because a game mechanic makes your character just "forget" abilities he knows well, for the duration of the fight.
I agree. More options for different types of rogues would be ideal. Everyone being a ninja makes them different from the warrior, certainly. But it would have been fun to just play a lock expert, or a fast talking scoundrel too. Just being handed a full-blown anime hero, isn't that big of an improvement.
You can pick an inquisition perk that trains rogues of the inquisition in masterful lockpicking techniques. Why not pick dialogue and make the choices that a fast talking scoundrel would?
You can pick an inquisition perk that trains rogues of the inquisition in masterful lockpicking techniques. Why not pick dialogue and make the choices that a fast talking scoundrel would?
He is still a full blown Ninja, no matter what else I decide he can do. That bit should have been aperk too. That is what I am saying.
Good. I may be alone here, but I hated having to d*** around with skill points and I'm an RPG veteran since the original Diablo and Baldur's Gate.
Interestingly, this was mentioned earlier in the thread too. "What's the point of distributing attributes if there's only one optimal method of placing them?"
You countered that people like to experiment, think outside of the box and come up with all sorts of non-standard builds just for the fun of it, and that this was one of the reasons that you enjoy placing attribute points yourself.
Putting aside that you have no evidence there are only eight optimal choices, your own logic applies here as well.
With 8 choices instead of 20+, basic math seens to indicate lesser options. While some like myself may wish to vary which eight, with the lesser choices on which to use for an encounter, options are lessened; more will likely go with the eight abilities most likely to be useful.
I was going to build another Hybrid, and while I still could, switching weapons during combat is not possible. Thus, I will have to switch from Archer Talents to DW Talents per encounter, or will lose the ability to utilize the ones associated with the other weapon. And decreasing options to 8 is enough, IMO.
No choice to distribute base Attributes, no weapon switching, weapon restrictions, eight hotkeys, one Specialization, and only a single casual set of clothes for Skyhold. While less is more may be better for Romance, for the game, it is simply less.
Spot on.
How is using 8 abilities more variety than 15? That makes no sense.
Variety across multiple fights, that one I can see. But that variety is only there because a game mechanic makes your character just "forget" abilities he knows well, for the duration of the fight.
Because entirely different builds enforce an entirely different playstyle. You have 8 active abilities, but your dwarf rogue might play completely different from your elf rogue, despite both of them being dual-dagger rogues. If you play one and fight a boss, then switch to the other and fight the same boss, you'd be fighting completely differently because your entire skillset and its combo's has changed.
Meanwhile the dwarf rogue and the elf rogue with all 15 abilities play exactly the same. They have exactly the same combo's, the same rotation, the same everything. Playing one then switching to the other, there's no difference when you tackle the same encounters.
He is still a full blown Ninja, no matter what else I decide he can do. That bit should have been aperk too. That is what I am saying.
Not really you can pick the talents that would reflect your being a scoundrel and not a ninja, archery, sabotage, artificer would be my definition of a scoundrel.
Because entirely different builds enforce an entirely different playstyle. You have 8 active abilities, but your dwarf rogue might play completely different from your elf rogue, despite both of them being dual-dagger rogues. If you play one and fight a boss, then switch to the other and fight the same boss, you'd be fighting completely differently because your entire skillset and its combo's has changed.
Meanwhile the dwarf rogue and the elf rogue with all 15 abilities play exactly the same. They have exactly the same combo's, the same rotation, the same everything. Playing one then switching to the other, there's no difference when you tackle the same encounters.
Sure it is. Not every player use the excact same combos just because they have access to them. With 15 he can chose to pick whatever he want from 15 options. In the other scenario he can pick only 8.
Not really you can pick the talents that would reflect your being a scoundrel and not a ninja, archery, sabotage, artificer would be my definition of a scoundrel.
I meant the animations. He still moves and bounces around like a Ninja filled with gummiberry juice. Those are constant, way over the top, and tells me he has ninja abilities. Those bits should have been tied to a perk too.
I meant the animations. He still moves and bounces around like a Ninja filled with gummiberry juice.
And characters in DA:O walk like they've pooped their pants while in combat.
Hurrah, Animation's.
I played a d&d rogue once who was a spy. Huge skill in Disguise, bluff, escape artist, and sleight of hand, terrible at disable device, move silently, open locks etc.I agree. More options for different types of rogues would be ideal. Everyone being a ninja makes them different from the warrior, certainly. But it would have been fun to just play a lock expert, or a fast talking scoundrel too. Just being handed a full-blown anime hero, isn't that big of an improvement.
I meant the animations. He still moves and bounces around like a Ninja filled with gummiberry juice. Those are constant, way over the top, and tells me he has ninja abilities. Those bits should have been tied to a perk too.
I picked those trees because they have the least acrobatic abilities there's only 1 in each archery and sabotage. subterfuge would also work if you don't have a problem with stealth.
Because entirely different builds enforce an entirely different playstyle. You have 8 active abilities, but your dwarf rogue might play completely different from your elf rogue, despite both of them being dual-dagger rogues. If you play one and fight a boss, then switch to the other and fight the same boss, you'd be fighting completely differently because your entire skillset and its combo's has changed.
Meanwhile the dwarf rogue and the elf rogue with all 15 abilities play exactly the same. They have exactly the same combo's, the same rotation, the same everything. Playing one then switching to the other, there's no difference when you tackle the same encounters.
With 8 choices instead of 20+, basic math seens to indicate lesser options. While some like myself may wish to vary which eight, with the lesser choices on which to use for an encounter, options are lessened; more will likely go with the eight abilities most likely to be useful.
I was going to build another Hybrid, and while I still could, switching weapons during combat is not possible. Thus, I will have to switch from Archer Talents to DW Talents per encounter, or will lose the ability to utilize the ones associated with the other weapon. And decreasing options to 8 is enough, IMO.
No choice to distribute base Attributes, no weapon switching, weapon restrictions, eight hotkeys, one Specialization, and only a single casual set of clothes for Skyhold. While less is more may be better for Romance, for the game, it is simply less.
Ah, see, you're still seeing archer and dual-wield as the only two possible choices. And in Origins, you'd be right. But in Inquisition, the limitation of 8 abilities means more choices can be made. Do you favour the stealth-and-backstab approach? Or would you rather use debilitating poison? Perhaps a mix of the two? Crits or counters? Traps? elemental damage?
The choices -and by extension, variety- are vast, that's just for the dual-dagger rogue. When you switch to a bow, all the trees are laid out again, and with the advantage of range and entirely different set of options opens up.
Sure it is. Not every player use the excact same combos just because they have access to them. With 15 he can chose to pick whatever he want from 15 options. In the other scenario he can pick only 8.
So you claim. In practice though, players tend to settle into a rotation that works. Start with skill A, follow up with skill B, watch out for a chance to trigger C and so forth.
If you don't switch up the skills, there's no reason for a player to divert from that rotation in the next playthrough. It worked fine on the previous character, why wouldn't it on this one?
Ah, see, you're still seeing archer and dual-wield as the only two possible choices. And in Origins, you'd be right. But in Inquisition, the limitation of 8 abilities means more choices can be made. Do you favour the stealth-and-backstab approach? Or would you rather use debilitating poison? Perhaps a mix of the two? Crits or counters? Traps? elemental damage?
The choices -and by extension, variety- are vast, that's just for the dual-dagger rogue. When you switch to a bow, all the trees are laid out again, and with the advantage of range and entirely different set of options opens up....
Actually, I am more inclined to play as an Archer period. The DW talents were for opponents that managed to close, and since we will be unable to switch weapons, Talents associated with daggers will be ineffective.
In no way that I imagine does fewer choices yield greater results; must be new math....
Have you actually looked at the talents available to disengage from your attacker so you can continue fighting at range or maybe another member of you party can gain their attention. To engage with daggers when you are more proficient with a bow is not the optimal decision. Remember you are part of a squad, would you rather each was a jack of all trades doing their own thing or masterful specialists using teamwork to overcome obstacles.
Have you actually looked at the talents available to disengage from your attacker so you can continue fighting at range or maybe another member of you party can gain their attention. To engage with daggers when you are more proficient with a bow is not the optimal decision. Remember you are part of a squad, would you rather each was a jack of all trades doing their own thing or masterful specialists using teamwork to overcome obstacles.
Optimal does not always beat optional. I prefer to be able to kill at a variety of ranges if possible; from NWN1 onward. And teamwork should go beyond a Warrior having to rely on Rogues and mages for ranged support. And personally, throwing a MMO chained sword is not something I shall be utilizing.
Bioware is emphasizing mastering a combat style per character and team synergy which is far more realistic as a team never gets far without it. Also i recommend heading over to the first page of the skill tree thread to read up on the actual ways rogues drop aggro and escape trouble.
Bioware is emphasizing mastering a combat style per character and team synergy which is far more realistic as a team never gets far without it. Also i recommend heading over to the first page of the skill tree thread to read up on the actual ways rogues drop aggro and escape trouble.
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