3034 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunbartacus]

Thats where I have the biggest problem with. They had such little time for DA2, so I could forgive some stuff there, especially with what they took away. However, with 4 years of development this time around, there is zero excuse for the lack of this or that, especially weapon styles I feel. Even things like different robes for skyhold should have been made. Were stuck with the same blue crap that many dont seem to like.. but no worries, you can change the drapes on your windows! 

 

There was even acknowledgement that DW warriors is a popular request or pther hybrid builds... Maybe come DA4 some variation will come back.

Inquisition was kinda like a reboot of the franchise i mean open world, reinventing combat, crafting etc. plus they're using a new engine that they needed to alter heavily to even support rpg mechanics at all which would have eaten up dev time(not sure how much im not a game developer). also the development wasn't the smoothest they were initially meant to release last October with no tac cam. So yeah heres hoping for Da4  .

[In Exile]

I can't honestly say. Never really played nightmare in general. I did playthrough temple of vulak, which was area created by a mod. It was like nightmare on steroids. It probably meant more cookie cutter builds.  

 

I dont know if the trees are better this time around than DA2, cause DA2 had too much crap abilities that were needed to get ones you wanted.  But one thing I do like, is the abscence of sustained abilities. I never cared for them much as they drained soo much stamina. Only exception was bloodmage like in DA2.  And yes, I want more specs for different weapon styles for more of hybrid builds. I mean mages and rogues get new types of specilizations  while warrior has the same 3 again and again.. I feel they kinda got screwed in that area with nothing new.

 

At least in respect of nightmare, IMO DA2 was superior in every way mechanic-wise. The problem was the **** encounter design, but at least the combat wasn't comically easy to just faceroll like in DA:O. 

 

I can't say DA2 had good combat, but it at least required me to actually try and play the game right if I power-gamed, as opposed to DA:O where I either had the choice of powergaming or, I dunno, taking two poorly build rogues with me to make it a challenge encounter-wise. 

[In Exile]

Thats where I have the biggest problem with. They had such little time for DA2, so I could forgive some stuff there, especially with what they took away. However, with 4 years of development this time around, there is zero excuse for the lack of this or that, especially weapon styles I feel. Even things like different robes for skyhold should have been made. Were stuck with the same blue crap that many dont seem to like.. but no worries, you can change the drapes on your windows! 

 

There was even acknowledgement that DW warriors is a popular request or pther hybrid builds... Maybe come DA4 some variation will come back.

 

Variation for the sake of variation is a worthless feature. All I can think of is DA:O and the volume of trash mage abilities. Mana Clash, for example, is just a 3 level and 4 talent point trudge through pure garbage to get an ability so OP that you have to consciously choose to avoid it to get any challenge out of the game. 

[seraphymon]

At least in respect of nightmare, IMO DA2 was superior in every way mechanic-wise. The problem was the **** encounter design, but at least the combat wasn't comically easy to just faceroll like in DA:O. 

 

I can't say DA2 had good combat, but it at least required me to actually try and play the game right if I power-gamed, as opposed to DA:O where I either had the choice of powergaming or, I dunno, taking two poorly build rogues with me to make it a challenge encounter-wise. 

I can't say that is true. Something that we already gone through. I mean it could just boil down to how we experienced things.  But the only reason I feel DA2 nightmare had any edge was due to the cheapness of friendly fire. Since you had shitty hp in comparison to enemies, it was a huge hurdle.  I had to plan and do alot of stuff for DAO. It was tough even on normal first time around. Its probably why DA2 seemed soo much easier, since I was used to the game series by then. Honestly I never had to really think for that game. I had to turn it up to hard at the beginning for how easy it was.  To me, DAO had the better combat system on a basis level, even if it wasnt perfect by any means with the actual challenge.

 

Variation for the sake of variation is a worthless feature. All I can think of is DA:O and the volume of trash mage abilities. Mana Clash, for example, is just a 3 level and 4 talent point trudge through pure garbage to get an ability so OP that you have to consciously choose to avoid it to get any challenge out of the game. 

The same way change for the sake of change is a worthless feature. Or fixing what isnt really broken.  I agree. DAO had a bunch of trash abilities, as did DA2, which in some ways, the trees and branches in that were even worse.  If it isn't done right, don't do it at all, I would agree with such a thing, but I am not saying add variation just to add it. It needs to be done better this time.  Mana clash was awesome and great for enemy mages, especially the one boss gaxkang I believe. OP, sure. but could have easily been patched to lower the damage, not sure why it still slipped through.

[In Exile]

I can't say that is true. Something that we already gone through. I mean it could just boil down to how we experienced things.  But the only reason I feel DA2 nightmare had any edge was due to the cheapness of friendly fire. Since you had shitty hp in comparison to enemies, it was a huge hurdle.  I had to plan and do alot of stuff for DAO. It was tough even on normal first time around. Its probably why DA2 seemed soo much easier. Honestly I never had to really think for that game. I had to turn it up to hard at the beginning for how easy it was.  To me, DAO had the better combat system on a basis level, even if it wasnt perfect by any means with the actual challenge.

 

The same way change for the sake of change is a worthless feature. Or fixing what isnt really broken.  I agree. DAO had a bunch of trash abilities, as did DA2, which in some ways, the trees and branches in that were even worse.  If it isn't done right, don't do it at all, I would agree with such a thing, but I am not saying add variation just to add it. It needs to be done better this time.  Mana clash was awesome and great for enemy mages, especially the one boss gaxkang I believe. OP, sure. but could have easily been patched to lower the damage, not sure why it still slipped through.

 

I can't say that friendly fire was even remotely a chore. I just cannot wrap my head around how people have any difficulty at all with FF, but I'd wager a lot of it is that I don't use tank and taunt conventionally so I never have a problem with the messy melees that RPGs seem to often devolve into day. DA:O had such overpowered AOE mage abilities that I found it impossible to even experience difficulty encounters because enemies would be obliterated unless I intentionally chose to load up on weak builds or classes. 

 

In terms of abilities, I'm not saying 8 abilities is good. I don't like it. I'm upset about it. I just don't think variance for its own sake is good either. 

[seraphymon]

I can't say that friendly fire was even remotely a chore. I just cannot wrap my head around how people have any difficulty at all with FF, but I'd wager a lot of it is that I don't use tank and taunt conventionally so I never have a problem with the messy melees that RPGs seem to often devolve into day. DA:O had such overpowered AOE mage abilities that I found it impossible to even experience difficulty encounters because enemies would be obliterated unless I intentionally chose to load up on weak builds or classes. 

 

In terms of abilities, I'm not saying 8 abilities is good. I don't like it. I'm upset about it. I just don't think variance for its own sake is good either. 

well thats were we differed. I used three melee because of the way the system was and the characters I liked. I was a 2 hand, so with him and a mage it was hurdle to try and spread things out. This is all without taunt or any sort of gravity spells, trying to avoid clusters.   Really I never thought of mages as OP. I mean they fit in with the lore, they were supposed to take out great numbers as just a few mages are deadly.  If mages are equal to a some normal person, why the need to lock them away?  Even though I know lore and gameplay balancing dont mix at times.  I said it before though, arcane warrior was no more OP then my DW warrior, may not have been as fast aoe wise, but cleared through enemies  like a knife through butter end game.

 

If I need to be clear as far as  my stance goes.  I want variance if it is done with depth and correctly,

[xkg]

People don't smarter, more agile, or stronger as they become more experienced at whatever they do for a living anyway ... they gat more skilled.

 

Yes in many cases they do. But there are activities that enchance your personal, physical or mental attributes, .

Somoene can do stretches every day. His body is getting more flexible - he is more agile - in terms of the game his AGI attribute is growing. He is not any more skilled at gymnastics, he won't win an olympic medal. He just got more agile.

 

Another one can lift at the gym. His body is getting stronger. He doesn't get "lifting" skill since what he gained can be used for hundred of other activities. His body got stronger - again, in terms of the game his STR attribute increased.

 

 

There are many more examples for other attributes. Sit-ups, running and alike excersises for CON, logical and deductive thinking excersises and courses for INT, reading hundred of technical books for WIS ... on and on .

[efd731]

So I'm really confused about this dunbartacus guy. Is he trolling? And if not, is he saying that the 8 ability limit will create a greater focus on tactics (because you'll want to be prepared for most things) or is he saying that only being able to use 8 abilities at a time is literally more tactical/gives you more tactics?
Also, there's an important distinction between tactics and strategy.

[efd731]

So I'm really confused about this dunbartacus guy. Is he trolling? And if not, is he saying that the 8 ability limit will create a greater focus on tactics (because you'll want to be prepared for most things) or is he saying that only being able to use 8 abilities at a time is literally more tactical/gives you more tactics?
Also, there's an important distinction between tactics and strategy.

[LonewandererD]

^A troll on this forum? Such nonsense, we're all perfectly reasonable people who respect each other to death

 

-D-

[xkg]

I wouldn't be so quick to flag someone as a troll. He just believes this mechanics suits his playstyle better, and is standing by it. 

 

From the pure math standpoint being available to use all of your 15 available skills produces more combinations for sure, no one can deny it.

But it is to each individual and his personal preferences if he likes that this way or prefer to be in some way restricted from using all of them.

 

For him this restrictions produces more tactical feel to the game, for me it doesn't. Bot are opinions. Both are right.

[berrieh]

It comes down to freedom vs. balance. DA:I looks to have a remarkably balanced combat system (pretty rare in an RPG) which I find impressive. I feel like most of the "restrictive" changes that bother people were done for the sake of this balance. They offer freedom in new areas, but not in ways that might be detrimental to game balance. No RPG offers perfect freedom, but with all the new freedoms DA:I is adding I don't understand why adding attributes - which never seemed exactly "fun" to me, unlike selecting talents - is that big a deal to anyone. I think it makes sense for you to get the attributes based on what you're actually good at doing - presumably, your rogue hasn't been studying magic. You are acting as a rogue and thus gain attributes related, naturally, as it would happen IRL. It feels *more* immersive to me. Roleplaying is about choice, yes, but it's also about immersion. That's another thing to balance. I don't understand how someone would go around sword-and-boarding and then improve their cunning on level up and feel immersed or like what happened was realistic at all, since they used no abilities and selected no options that increased cunning. 

 

As to 8 ability slots, I think it very much has to do with game balance. Game balance does require some parity; they have made a UI specifically for PCs, but the overall game mechanics have to be the same in every version of the game if you are to get true balance. So, yes, there will be parity. Unlike graphical parity, which is just a cop out, this kind of parity makes sense for developing a game and ensuring that versions have consistent play experiences as well as that balance remains in combat. So maybe it was due to controller restraints, I don't know, or maybe it was to make combat choices feel more strategic, or perhaps both. But either way, it's clearly a balance issue. I like freedom, but game balance is a really important part of game design. Bioware taking steps to balance their game with a new combat system seems like a good step to me. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@xkg:  Fantastic post.  For me - it has a sum of zero.  If I could use a thousand skills or one I'd be totally fine as I don't consider combat to be a major player in my fun.  It "can" be more or less fun - but it has less to do with the number of abilities and more to do with their utility.

 

I think the only time I ever feel the need to respond is when it's:  "This is fact, and you're wrong." instead of "Both are opinions. Both are right." 
 

[PhroXenGold]

I wouldn't be so quick to flag someone as a troll. He just believes this mechanics suits his playstyle better, and is standing by it. 

 

From the pure math standpoint being available to use all of your 15 available skills produces more combinations for sure, no one can deny it.

But it is to each individual and his personal preferences if he likes that this way or prefer to be in some way restricted from using all of them.

 

For him this restrictions produces more tactical feel to the game, for me it doesn't. Bot are opinions. Both are right.

 

Yeah. Personally I'm cautiously optimistic about the 8 ability limitation, because it has the potential to result in more interesting combat situations (whether it will depends on the implementation). The more abilities, the more freedom you have in combat, the more likely there is a "right" answer to the problem the tactical situation is presenting you. By limiting the number of abilities, it increases the chances of you encountering a situation where you don't have the perfect answer, and are instead forced to come up with a non-perfect solution with what you have, which to me is far more interesting. 

 

Of course, I can understand why some people prefer to have the freedom to use all their abilities.

[Medhia_Nox]

I wonder - would it have been better for some people if the game had only given you the opportunity to choose 8 powers out of a list instead of letting you choose X amount but only use 8?
 

In other words - split Abilities and Passives into two different trees and let you only pick 8 powers out of the Abilities - and then X out of Passives. 

[Dunbartacus]

So I'm really confused about this dunbartacus guy. Is he trolling? And if not, is he saying that the 8 ability limit will create a greater focus on tactics (because you'll want to be prepared for most things) or is he saying that only being able to use 8 abilities at a time is literally more tactical/gives you more tactics?
Also, there's an important distinction between tactics and strategy.

Not sure how you got troll out of my posts. i don't think I've ever said the 8 ability limit creates makes for more tactical combat, i think it increases strategy to a certain degree once you get more than 8 assuming all abilities do different and worthwhile things. I also don't think the 8 ability limit is the best thing ever i'm just not worried as the game was designed with the limit in mind plus we get 32 party wide which imo is plenty for fun and tactical game-play. 

[Elhanan]

Gonna go by paragraph:
 
1: Crafting is an essential part if you want to min / max in inquisition or create bizzare builds otherwise you should be able to utilize looted equipment which the evidence points to being hand placed so no rng to worry about. Crafting materials you pick up are abundant everywhere or have specific areas so you know where to find them. Bear pelts for example hopefully drop every-time you kill one. The last sentence is your opinion as i and probably a lot of other people love crafting systems and this looks to be the best I've used(loved it in skyrim despite the grinding).
 
2. The game is built around the 8 ability limit if these were the origins or even da:2 skill trees i'd have a big problem with it. Even at level 30 you will find it hard to reach more than 10-11 abilities if you take full advantage of upgrades and passives, some of the extra actives are hopefully super useful versus certain enemies. On the other hand i wouldn't be against having all our actives available in combat its just a non issue with me at the moment. The last point i would rather didn't happen, factions should be rather consistent with their vulnerabilities and resistances also you have 3 other members to eliminate any weaknesses in your character build if need be. 
 
3. This is just speculation, it could prove correct but i doubt it judging by the info on customization and gameplay we've seen where crafting materials are abundant along quest paths.
 
4. Also speculation maybe if there was no tactical camera and it was a solo game and we were at the mercy of rnjesus i'd agree but on the current information its a massive tactical party based rpg with an in depth story that has meaningful choices. I recommend watching some of bioware's twitch streams and then tell me if the combat looks anything like a hack and slash.

* While Crafting seems to allow for wide customization, due to restrictions on Classes with weapons, weapon switching, and the system determining base Attributes, the variations to said template will unlikely be viable. While one could build a STR Rogue, the build itself has apparently been gutted and left to die. If STR allows a Rogue to do nothing with it, then there is no reason to try it.

* Basing the new game around lesser Active choices does not equate to higher customization to me. Having less need for more slots is not a bonus.

* Many things I and some others are criticizing are confirmed as features; not only speculation based from them.

* While I love Tactical camera, many do not, and the auto-attack feature has many finger-sore at the mechanics implemented. And while I am enjoying the scenery and appearances seen in game, the FX prove too distracting and overwhelming at times to gather much data during combat (am hoping to decrease FX and remove floating damage indicators via Settings; will have to see).

[Elhanan]

All i'm gonna say is different game, different systems, different options. im sorry you didn't get all the features you wanted.

Yes; what appears to be received is a better looking game with the bells and whistles for customized gameplay, except for the characters themselves.

[Elhanan]

I can't honestly say. Never really played nightmare in general. I did playthrough temple of vulak, which was area created by a mod. It was like nightmare on steroids. It probably meant more cookie cutter builds.  
 
I dont know if the trees are better this time around than DA2, cause DA2 had too much crap abilities that were needed to get ones you wanted.  But one thing I do like, is the abscence of sustained abilities. I never cared for them much as they drained soo much stamina. Only exception was bloodmage like in DA2.  And yes, I want more specs for different weapon styles for more of hybrid builds. I mean mages and rogues get new types of specilizations  while warrior has the same 3 again and again.. I feel they kinda got screwed in that area with nothing new.

DA2 seemed to have better tiers for my choices; seemed to be fewer unused Talents or Spells to gather desired ones. And I never used Blood magic in DA2; simply chose to give my characters higher WILL. Also would not expect to see the same choices for Spec's, as other mechanics have been altered.

[Alejandrawrr]

I'm a little lost on the current discussion as I haven't been following the trailers that much in the past couple months (I've seen a few gameplay and CC ones, of course) and the first page doesn't contain any info, but can someone summarize to me what the "8 ability slots" you guys are talking about means? Does it mean we can choose any number of active and passive abilities while leveling up, just like in previous DA's, but when it comes to selecting the shortcuts in combat we only have 8 shortcut slots? (ie: How we could set fireball to square, cone of cold to triangle, winter's grasp to circle, and then three more spells to the same buttons while holding R1 or something?)

Or does this mean we can only selected 8 abilities when leveling up, as a cap of some sort? If there's a video I missed that explains this, that would be appreciated. I've only ever played DA on consoles, for what it's worth.

[Elhanan]

So After like reading 20 page of this I realize you guys have some serious problems. 
Yes you don't get to manually boost your attribute points when you level up but they still do gain points.
Yes many of us would like to manually put 2 point on this and 1 point on that but Its the same damn thing. 
And Ofcourse  Mages will gain more points in Will power than other Class and Warrior will gain more in strength and Constitution everybody should realize that.[/size]
 
So as you level up you do grow in power . and abilities you choose also affect attribute gains. And than you have your armor stats and weapon which was also in DAO and DA2 ..and In DAI you have adden Crafting to boost it up even higher....It is not at all dependant on Crafting, I would even argue its not that dependant on armour either. People always equip the armor and weapon with the best Stat..Seriously people are arguing about this....All RPG Armor and Weapons give you added stat...and people mostly pick the one thats the best suited for that class..
But since Bioware lets talk about how this destroys the good old days of RPGS...[/size]

Yep; we still gain pts, but in pre-determined Attributes. We lose the freedom of choice.

No; many of us that manually used Attributes did not choose the same thing at all. Past discussions of this on the forums is evidence to the contrary.

And while my Mages did have higher magic, they also had decent DEX and CON; the latter for Blood magic. Now Blood magic is removed (fine by me, as I did not care for it, but many others have differing views), and everyone will have the same base stats. Shepard; the Enchanter.

It seems that the reading listed may have missed some details....

[xkg]

I'm a little lost on the current discussion as I haven't been following the trailers that much in the past couple months (I've seen a few gameplay and CC ones, of course) and the first page doesn't contain any info, but can someone summarize to me what the "8 ability slots" you guys are talking about means? Does it mean we can choose any number of active and passive abilities while leveling up, just like in previous DA's, but when it comes to selecting the shortcuts in combat we only have 8 shortcut slots? (ie: How we could set fireball to square, cone of cold to triangle, winter's grasp to circle, and then three more spells to the same buttons while holding R1 or something?)

Or does this mean we can only selected 8 abilities when leveling up, as a cap of some sort? If there's a video I missed that explains this, that would be appreciated. I've only ever played DA on consoles, for what it's worth.

 

In short , what You said (underlined ^) is true.

Thread is about auto allocation of attributes (Strength, Cunning, Dexterity etc). On Level up you can't assign them manually, the game is going to do that for you.

[LeBurns]

I played DA:O 20+ times and near the end it was pretty obvious that I was specing my classes exactly the same way every time.  There is an optimum way to spec a class, and to deviate from that can add some variety, but isn't necessary IMO.  I'd rather focus more now on the things we can change through crafting and such.

 

To me this is nothing compared to attributes being taken out of TES-V, so if I can survive that I'm sure I'll get over this quickly enough.

[Alejandrawrr]

In short , what You said (underlined ^) is true.

Thread is about auto allocation of attributes (Strength, Cunning, Dexterity etc). On Level up you can't assign them manually, the game is going to do that for you.

Alright, thanks for the clarification. From a console player's perspective, 8 slots (as opposed to 6 previously) is great.

The lack of assigning stats is a little bit of a letdown, I'd hope there is at least some way we could influence them moving forward, as it doesn't appear that way in DAI based on the trailers I've seen. Using a very different RPG, but in Fire Emblem Awakening they had growth rates, and when creating our Avatar we could at least vaguely guide the growths in the direction we wanted while still generally adhering to the growth rates of our selected class, giving slight variation (but not total control) as they leveled up. IMO, generally speaking, a pacifistic female elf warrior should not have the exact same strength or constitution as a violent, hulking male qunari warrior, just because they have the same gear equipped. I do like the addition of passive skills having an effect on stats, but eh... A simple choice when creating your character, selecting their single best and worst stat (again, like in FE:A) would go a long way in a potential DA4.

[azarhal]

The lack of assigning stats is a little bit of a letdown, I'd hope there is at least some way we could influence them moving forward

 

You get full control over your stats via gears (and crafting). The gear bonus is a lot larger than the passives increase or what ever breadcrumbs comes with leveling up.