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No attribute points on level up


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#2851
Elhanan

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It comes down to freedom vs. balance. DA:I looks to have a remarkably balanced combat system (pretty rare in an RPG) which I find impressive. I feel like most of the "restrictive" changes that bother people were done for the sake of this balance. They offer freedom in new areas, but not in ways that might be detrimental to game balance. No RPG offers perfect freedom, but with all the new freedoms DA:I is adding I don't understand why adding attributes - which never seemed exactly "fun" to me, unlike selecting talents - is that big a deal to anyone. I think it makes sense for you to get the attributes based on what you're actually good at doing - presumably, your rogue hasn't been studying magic. You are acting as a rogue and thus gain attributes related, naturally, as it would happen IRL. It feels *more* immersive to me. Roleplaying is about choice, yes, but it's also about immersion. That's another thing to balance. I don't understand how someone would go around sword-and-boarding and then improve their cunning on level up and feel immersed or like what happened was realistic at all, since they used no abilities and selected no options that increased cunning. 
 
As to 8 ability slots, I think it very much has to do with game balance. Game balance does require some parity; they have made a UI specifically for PCs, but the overall game mechanics have to be the same in every version of the game if you are to get true balance. So, yes, there will be parity. Unlike graphical parity, which is just a cop out, this kind of parity makes sense for developing a game and ensuring that versions have consistent play experiences as well as that balance remains in combat. So maybe it was due to controller restraints, I don't know, or maybe it was to make combat choices feel more strategic, or perhaps both. But either way, it's clearly a balance issue. I like freedom, but game balance is a really important part of game design. Bioware taking steps to balance their game with a new combat system seems like a good step to me.


This is biased, so I preface with it: seems that this balance may have been done for DA-MP, and not for solo play.

I and others here enjoyed manually allocating points to Attributes, while others could choose to let the game select them. Now the former group is forced to use the latter mechanic. And some of the latter group does not empathize as to why this is something to complain about for DAI. Yet I doubt the forums would have remained empty if the latter system had been the one removed for the former.

And I quite like immersion, and playing the role. One STR Rogue of mine was named Bronto; an armored, 1H weapon toting thug from Dust Town with a penchant for swapping purses from those that lacked respect. IN DAI, all Rogues will have the same base stats, so while they look the same, there is no longer any room for Bronto. While some may have limited vision on RP, there are generally others with a different perspective.

Freedom of choice was added and is promoted for a more Open World, more Talents, higher CC options, and many other areas, but the character designs now lack those freedoms. Of course, such characters may be easier to balance for DA-MP, but I play solo games as a rule. At least we do not have to worry about PvP; then the after-Nerfing can likely be avoided.

Note: This is my own opinion, but based on what I have read, this may be shared by others.

#2852
Dunbartacus

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* While Crafting seems to allow for wide customization, due to restrictions on Classes with weapons, weapon switching, and the system determining base Attributes, the variations to said template will unlikely be viable. While one could build a SRE Rogue, the build itself has apparently been gutted and left to die. If STR allows a Rogue to do nothing with it, then there is no reason to try it.

* Basing the new game around lesser Active choices does not equate to higher customization to me. Having less need for more slots is not a bonus.

* Many things I and some others are criticizing are confirmed as features; not only speculation based from them.

* While I love Tactical camera, many do not, and the auto-attack feature has many finger-sore at the mechanics implemented. And while I am enjoying the scenery and appearances seen in game, the FX prove too distracting and overwhelming at times to gather much data during combat (am hoping to decrease FX and remove floating damage indicators via Settings; will have to see).

Just fyi my previous post was a response to Kleon didn't really factor the less or more customization discussion we were having at the time.

 

1: I should let you know i had no problem with DA:2 attributes, the distinction between warriors and rogues that took place or the restriction of weapon types as they had a bunch of non weapon based trees which i prefer. The builds i am talking about are possible within the framework of this games systems( im assuming that dai attributes are similar to da2 not dao) for some examples crit chance mages are now supported through a passive in the inferno tree, crit chance warriors are also a thing through gear now without having to dump points into cunning like in da2 and i have an insane damage knight enchanter that is exceptionally hard to kill build planned that was in no way possible in either of the last two entries. 

 

2: This is subjective, i would feel the same way if not for all the passives and upgrades but as of the info i have now i prefer inquisitions skill trees over origins.

 

3: They were saying bioware's goal was to infuriate people the new crafting system which im pretty sure wasn't the reason for its inclusion. The cookie cutter builds argument is just speculation at this point and as for crafting i foresee myself enjoying creating a bunch of kick-ass equipment for my squad so long as drop rates of crafting materials are 100% but others may have different views.

 

Basically all im saying is yes bioware has removed things from origins but things have been added in there place thus we'll know which has greater customization soon either through reviews and the internet or by actually playing the game ourselves.

 

I'm all for having an auto attack feature even if its absence doesn't affect me i recommend macros as i think they can simulate auto attack if your playing on pc otherwise ask bioware politely or maybe start an internet petition illuminating to bioware that those with arthritis or similar will have trouble with the current attack method so it is maybe added in a patch like was done with da2. You can remove floating dmg numbers not sure about FX though.


Modifié par Dunbartacus, 29 octobre 2014 - 02:48 .


#2853
Elhanan

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I played DA:O 20+ times and near the end it was pretty obvious that I was specing my classes exactly the same way every time.  There is an optimum way to spec a class, and to deviate from that can add some variety, but isn't necessary IMO.  I'd rather focus more now on the things we can change through crafting and such.
 
To me this is nothing compared to attributes being taken out of TES-V, so if I can survive that I'm sure I'll get over this quickly enough.


Me, too! More than a score of playthroughs, and then my character choices for dialogue and major decisions were pretty much the same. Kill Loghain, kill Bhelen, kill Branka, etc. There were some exceptions, for usually only a single time to explore those avenues.

But as for builds, I had Rogues that excelled in Archery, DW, or utilized both. My Mages varied across many of the Schools. Even my Warriors varied a little. Guess this is where we may have a different focused view of the game.

As for TES, I started with Skyrim, and still enjoy it, though I now have the same kind of issues. I doubt I would have liked it as much if the game chose Health, Magika, or Stamina for me.

#2854
Salaya

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The lack of assigning stats is a little bit of a letdown, I'd hope there is at least some way we could influence them moving forward

 

You get full control over your stats via gears (and crafting). The gear bonus is a lot larger than the passives increase or what ever breadcrumbs comes with leveling up.

 

Keep in mind, though, that is not true that you have full control over your stats through gear and crafting, since both things depend on item findings that may or may not occur or may or may not be adequate to your stat allocation wishes. As a player, you only have an indirect control over attributes.



#2855
Dunbartacus

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Keep in mind, though, that is not true that you have full control over your stats through gear and crafting, since both things depend on item findings that may or may not occur or may or may not be adequate to your stat allocation wishes. As a player, you only have an indirect control over attributes.

The same could be said of origins and da2 maybe i wanted 4 attributes per level. You get a retarded amount of attributes from equipment a staff in a screenshot gave +36 magic which is a lot imo. The crafting system allows full control over what attributes go onto gear all you need is the right materials.



#2856
Lennard Testarossa

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The same could be said of origins and da2 maybe i wanted 4 attributes per level. You get a retarded amount of attributes from equipment a staff in a screenshot gave +36 magic which is a lot imo. The crafting system allows full control over what attributes go onto gear all you need is the right materials.

 

God, that would be awful.



#2857
Dunbartacus

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God, that would be awful.

what would be awful?



#2858
Salaya

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The same could be said of origins and da2 maybe i wanted 4 attributes per level. You get a retarded amount of attributes from equipment a staff in a screenshot gave +36 magic which is a lot imo. The crafting system allows full control over what attributes go onto gear all you need is the right materials.

 

You may want to have 50 point per level up, or 120, or 2. That's irrelevant to the adjective: wheter you have 3 or 100, you allocate your points directly, by your wish at leveling up. That's a direct relation between the player and the attributes.

 

In the new system you don't have that direct relation between player and attributes. You may or may not have the required items to do so. If you wish to level up str points, the action of finding the necessary items is not related to the allocation. That is an indirect relation.

 

So, no, you don't have full control over it.


  • Kleon aime ceci

#2859
Lennard Testarossa

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what would be awful?

 

Your attributes being mostly (or even equally) based on your equipment. I'm already pissed that spell damage is based on weapon damage. If the magic attribute is mostly determined by equipment, then lorewise that is essentially saying that the difference between an arch-mage and a novice is in what staves and robes they wear.


  • Kleon et Elhanan aiment ceci

#2860
Dunbartacus

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You may want to have 50 point per level up, or 120, or 2. That's irrelevant to the adjective: wheter you have 3 or 100, you allocate your points directly, by your wish at leveling up. That's a direct relation between the player and the attributes.

 

In the new system you don't have that direct relation between player and attributes. You may or may not have the required items to do so. If you wish to level up str points, the action of finding the necessary items is not related to the allocation. That is an indirect relation.

 

So, no, you don't have full control over it.

Really so you can't directly control going to find the material desired for your gear if you don't have it. You still have full control you just prefer the old method which is fine i just don't share your opinion.



#2861
Salaya

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Your attributes being mostly (or even equally) based on your equipment. I'm already pissed that spell damage is based on weapon damage. If the magic attribute is mostly determined by equipment, then lorewise that is essentially saying that the difference between an arch-mage and a novice is in what staves and robes they wear.

 

What? This is official? Confirmation anywhere?

 

If that's true... well, pretty dissapointing. Another step to Diablo Age Skyrim Connection :(


  • Kleon aime ceci

#2862
Salaya

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Really so you can't directly control going to find the material desired for your gear if you don't have it. You still have full control you just prefer the old method which is fine i just don't share your opinion.

 

Finding the material is something that not depends directly on you. You may go to look for the desired material, and that's a direct action. Finding it? Not so much.

 

I'm not arguing about which system is better or worse. I'm just pointing something obvious: it is not a direct control, hence, not full controllable. Is this good? Is this better? Is this worse? I don't know.
 



#2863
Dunbartacus

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Your attributes being mostly (or even equally) based on your equipment. I'm already pissed that spell damage is based on weapon damage. If the magic attribute is mostly determined by equipment, then lorewise that is essentially saying that the difference between an arch-mage and a novice is in what staves and robes they wear.

Its simply emphasizing the importance of equipment which makes sense as a rogue or warrior would be a lot less effective without good gear. The mage i admit is a bit harder to support, I look at your talent capabilities as a measure of your power and your gear as a mage is simply enchanted to enhance whichever combat aspects you wish to excel at. A magic staff for example is just an object that magnifies the dmg / effectiveness of your abilities. With this rationale i can enjoy the game iv'e been waiting 3 years for.



#2864
Dunbartacus

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Finding the material is something that not depends directly on you. You may go to look for the desired material, and that's a direct action. Finding it? Not so much.

 

I'm not arguing about which system is better or worse. I'm just pointing something obvious: it is not a direct control, hence, not full controllable. Is this good? Is this better? Is this worse? I don't know.
 

You fully control what your character does, crafts, equips etc. also it seems from the bioware streams that materials have a set zone so they should be easy to find once you've discovered that area or you can always use google to find out what material would suit your build best and where / how to attain said material.



#2865
Salaya

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You fully control what your character does, crafts, equips etc. also it seems from the bioware streams that materials have a set zone so they should be easy to find once you've discovered that area or you can always use google to find out what material would suit your build best and where / how to attain said material.

 

Again, that you have direct control over your character to do various things doesn't mean that you have a direct control over stat allocation, which is the point of this discussion. That you know from previous plays or guides where to find items that may help you obtain these points is exactly the same as admitting that there is a indirect obstacle to stat allocation that you could overcome with indirect methods.

 

I don't really see what's the problem in admiting something so blatantly obvious: this system does not allow direct control over your stats. No one is saying this is better or worse. I may like or not, but I'm not even mentioning it. The system is indirect...but who knows, maybe this is funnier or something!



#2866
Sylvius the Mad

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Bioware is emphasizing mastering a combat style per character and team synergy which is far more realistic as a team never gets far without it.

Yes, but how much variety will be available when choosing that combat style for each character?

I don't like melee combat. In DAO it was almost never necessary. In DA2 it was rarely necessary after you got Force Mage abilities.

I wonder if I'll be able to avoid melee in Inquisition.

#2867
Illyria God King of the Primordium

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Your attributes being mostly (or even equally) based on your equipment. I'm already pissed that spell damage is based on weapon damage. If the magic attribute is mostly determined by equipment, then lorewise that is essentially saying that the difference between an arch-mage and a novice is in what staves and robes they wear.

...or the fact that they know ninety percent of their trees while the novices don't.  



#2868
Sylvius the Mad

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Maybe 5 percent of all players will play like that - should they design the game to make 5 percent a little bit happier?

If they want to alienate that 5%, they should come out and say so.

#2869
Dunbartacus

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We just have different opinions. as i have direct control over what my character does, crafts, equips thus i have full control of gear attribute bonuses. if you want to look at it as indirect attribute control go ahead it won't change my opinion on the matter.



#2870
Elhanan

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...or the fact that they know ninety percent of their trees while the novices don't.


Yet, confiscate those Epic staves and robes, and they might not be able to do much with said knowledge.

#2871
Salaya

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We just have different opinions. as i have direct control over what my character does, crafts, equips thus i have full control of gear attribute bonuses. if you want to look at it as indirect attribute control go ahead it won't change my opinion on the matter.

 

I take this as the point where you ran out of arguments to justify your opinion. I take then that you have faith in this direct control thing, since you don't have valid rational explanations for it. I respect faith, so I'll respect yours.



#2872
Sylvius the Mad

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Not being able to allocate stats at character creation is probably intended to streamline character creation and get players into the action faster.

This was clearly a design goal in DA2, and while people didn't seem to like that particular implementation, BioWare doesn't appear to have beem swayed from the concept overall.

Also, Skyrim did the same thing. It eliminated stats entirely, and Inquisition is openly mimicking Skyrim in some ways.

I don't think it's a good idea. I think the gameplay starts with planning a character, and I have no objection to spending a day reading a manual and planning a character before ever launching the software. I get that some people don't enjoy that, but that's a reason to hide the numbers from those people, not eliminate player control of th altogether.

#2873
Dunbartacus

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Yes, but how much variety will be available when choosing that combat style for each character?

I don't like melee combat. In DAO it was almost never necessary. In DA2 it was rarely necessary after you got Force Mage abilities.

I wonder if I'll be able to avoid melee in Inquisition.

Not sure, definitely less but the same could be said of origins as without melee you cut out most of the weapon trees for warriors and half the rogues options.

 

in inquisition Warriors are a purely melee class so you would have to cut them out. One positive is all rogue specs work for both bows and daggers and you have archery, subterfuge and sabotage to choose from out of the base trees. For mages you cut out knight enchanter but the same could be said about arcane warrior.

 

So you still seem to have options to support your play style. I just hope cass, bull and blackwall don't get fat sitting in base for the entire game :D



#2874
Dunbartacus

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I take this as the point where you ran out of arguments to justify your opinion. I take then that you have faith in this direct control thing, since you don't have valid rational explanations for it. I respect faith, so I'll respect yours.

Yes because i view the crafting system and its results as fully controllable im somehow wrong. you never debunked my opinion just stated your own.



#2875
Elhanan

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Yes because i view the crafting system and its results as fully controllable im somehow wrong. you never debunked my opinion just stated your own.


The difference I see is that the base Attributes are something on the character, and item bonuses are something that may be on the character one day. The latter is reliant on discovering and searching; the former on creation of the PC itself. One may lose a staff or armor, but the base Attributes themselves are part of the character.

This is not a difference of opinions, as this is factual info.