3034 réponses à ce sujet

[Muspade]

picking from a limited tree.

We did that every game.

[Vilegrim]

We did that every game.

 

yes, and had stat allocations to make up for it with gear combinations (dagger/dex dual wield warriors ftw) and non-combat skills for even more customisation. 

[Big I]

No attribute allocation is surprising, but not that big a deal. Stat allocation in DA2 sucked; because enemies leveled with you, you had very little choice around what to do with your points - raise your damage stat (either magic, strength or dex), raise cunning to keep defense up, and raise willpower to give you more mana or stamina.

 

DA:O wasn't that much better, particularly for me because the stats lack context. In BG 1 & 2 a stat of 18 was the human max, with anything over basically being superhuman. But what does it mean in Dragon Age to have 42 strength? How does that compare to the average person?

[Mathias]

I'm just gonna repost something I wrote in another forum:

 

 

 

It's not just about what your main stat for what your class was. For example you could create an amazing archer by picking up Lethality, and putting more points into Cunning than you normally would with dexterity. Giving the player attribute points to distribute, opens the doors for all kinds of different builds.

 

It wasn't just about "Oh I'm a warrior so I need to put this many in strength and this many in constitution." You had a choice. You could be a warrior that wanted to focus more on DPS than being a tank, so you'd put way more points into strength than constitution. Or you could do the opposite if you wanted to be a tank.

 

Hell you could be a mage that focused on being a Tank if you put more points into constitution and went the Arcane Warrior route. The point is you had full control over how your character progressed. You could experiment. By removing the ability to distribute attributes yourself, that to me takes a piece out customization away.

 

 

 

[Vilegrim]

Ignore the gifs and points still valid I'm afraid.

 

 

no, it's not.Multiple weapon enchants for different targets, multiple ways to dispel magic ,, to use the most efficient one for that situation or the ones that aren't on CD, ever ability available on my hot bars so that I don't have to metagame each boss/ encounter before I get to it, multiple healing types for the cooldowns, what is most efficient, stats on level up so I can decide to make things more tanky, or have more stamina/mana for spamming, or to glass cannon the hell out of a build, or.....

[Rawgrim]

Sure I appreciate that, but I'm not sure allowing you to make poor choices is necessarily a good design approach - just a traditional one, and harder for the devs to balance consistantly.

 

It is a good approach if you want to give your players freedom. Constant hand-holding and railroading removes a lot of that, I think.

[Nohvarr]

Actually being critical of an aspect in a game, and explaining why, means there is a lot of thinking involved.

As does explaining why you think it works.

[Vilegrim]

As does explaining why you think it works.

 

 

taking a build and stat array that seem 'bad' and making them work anyway because that is what the character would do is awesome fun and a great way to make things challenging, and to make a character memorable.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

I'm just gonna repost something I wrote in another forum:

 

 

 

It's not just about what your main stat for what your class was. For example you could create an amazing archer by picking up Lethality, and putting more points into Cunning than you normally would with dexterity. Giving the player attribute points to distribute, opens the doors for all kinds of different builds.

 

It wasn't just about "Oh I'm a warrior so I need to put this many in strength and this many in constitution." You had a choice. You could be a warrior that wanted to focus more on DPS than being a tank, so you'd put way more points into strength than constitution. Or you could do the opposite if you wanted to be a tank.

 

Hell you could be a mage that focused on being a Tank if you put more points into constitution and went the Arcane Warrior route. The point is you had full control over how your character progressed. You could experiment. By removing the ability to distribute attributes yourself, that to me takes a piece out customization away.

 

 

And yet some people do not get this idea. We like to experiment, we like choices, we like options. We dislike having our hand held, we dislike auto gaming things. We like to role play our characters as opposed to min/maxing them. We like doing things ourselves and that includes attribute distribution. 

 

Yet to some people, complaining about this somehow equates to being crybabies and whiners.  Yet, to some people, having the ability to craft gear somehow solves this problem. Go figure.

[Rawgrim]

The spell doesn't require material component, but to reach the same result you have a lot of options which a dm must know. Traveling by boat for example, you can use the time to inscribe runes. You can use the spell timestop with a shadowcraft mage and use heightened silent image to transform your whole spell list into runes. You can use genesis to create a demiplane where time flows slowly, then teleport there and start inscribing. You can use miracle to ask one. You can shapeshift into a solar to cast miracle to do the same. Or summon and bind one and ask it to do your bidding.

 

Unless a dm knows most scenarios, a wizard has options.

 

If someone did that in any of the gaming groups I have been involved with, that player would be tossed out fairly fast. Most gaming groups don't allow all of the optional books either. Mostly they seem to stick with the core books and the basic setting book.

[Lebanese Dude]

Actually he is completely missing the point.

 

Please educate me.

 

Don't post subjective arguments though. Your comfort level with an evolving gameplay approach is completely irrelevant.

 

Also don't post about the "good old days" of gaming. That's also highly subjective. Pretty sure BioWare can change their approach if they see it fit.

 

Leave out the parts where you try to explain that Dragon Age Inquisition is doing it all wrong by not following your own designs. 

 

 

Oh hey that's most of the arguments in this thread.

[Rawgrim]

As does explaining why you think it works.

 

Removing more and more options certainly works if you want a game to be as simplified as possible. Nothing wrong with wanting that either. But in an rpg it will limit the player's control over his own character (developmentwise and creatively) and most of them will just be cardboard characters with severe limitations.

[Rawgrim]

Please educate me.

 

Don't post subjective arguments though. Your comfort level with an evolving gameplay approach is completely irrelevant.

 

Also don't post about the "good old days" of gaming. That's also highly subjective.

Leave out the parts where you try to explain that Dragon Age Inquisition is doing it all wrong by not following your own designs. You are not remotely qualified to do so.

 

Oh hey that's most of the arguments in this thread.

 

A customers opinion about a product is never irrelevant.

 

And how am I not remotely qualified to do so? I have played rpgs for over 20 years, and I work as an rpg designer\writer\author for an rpg company. I think that would make me at least remotely qualified to voice an opinion?

[Lebanese Dude]

Removing more and more options certainly works if you want a game to be as simplified as possible. Nothing wrong with wanting that either. But in an rpg it will limit the player's control over his own character (developmentwise and creatively) and most of them will just be cardboard characters with severe limitations.

 

They are simplifying some aspects while adding options to others. Stop looking at DAI through that lens.

[Gtdef]

If someone did that in any of the gaming groups I have been involved with, that player would be tossed out fairly fast. Most gaming groups don't allow all of the optional books either. Mostly they seem to stick with the core books and the basic setting book.

 

I don't like playing a game limited to player's handbook, dm manual and the basic monster manual. It usually either means that the dm is inept and will ask you to give speeches otherwise you can't make a diplomacy call or that there are too many players and he has to limit the material instead of getting familiar with every build and setting.

 

But well, we are getting way too off topic here.

 

My original point is that I find attributes of the past 2 games lacking. Happy they are gone.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Please educate me.

 

Don't post subjective arguments pls.

 

It has been said, time and again, on this very thread, that having the option to allow players to distribute attributes the way they wish provides more customization and more for character growth. 

 

You could for example, be a tanky mage that just uses a a few spells if you choose to focus on Constitution for your health or be a dexterous warrior by focusing on dexterity. This is called role playing where players role play the character they want, be it a well spoken & suave mage or a dextrous warrior or a tanky rogue.

 

Additionally, it has also been said on this thread, time and again, that there are plenty of people who dislike having their hand held and things being done for them. Having attributes level up on their own is auto-level which does exactly that.

 

Furthermore, Bioware has gone on record saying that crafting is an option. With this restriction, they seem to be lying about it because it now appears you have to craft weapons and armors to do well. This then leads to endless scurrying around the world like you do in an MMO to find crafting materials and then hoping that the loot gives you want you want. 

 

Additionally, game is a subjective thing. As such, expecting people to not be subjective about it, is foolish. Sadly, from your posts, you seem to have made up your mind that people who dislike this no attribute thing are whiners and moaners....

[CrimsonHead]

A customers opinion about a product is never irrelevant.

 

And how am I not remotely qualified to do so? I have played rpgs for over 20 years, and I work as an rpg designer\writer\author for an rpg company. I think that would make me at least remotely qualified to voice an opinion?

 

So RPG's shouldn't be allowed to evolve in the last 20 years?

[Joseph Warrick]

Wow, this change has me intrigued and excited for the game. So far things were pretty but a bit more of the same. Classes, ok. Crafting, ok. Quests, companions, decisions, ok... as usual. Felt like I knew what I was going to see. But this is new. I welcome the novelty!

[Lebanese Dude]

A customers opinion about a product is never irrelevant.

 

And how am I not remotely qualified to do so? I have played rpgs for over 20 years, and I work as an rpg designer\writer\author for an rpg company. I think that would make me at least remotely qualified to voice an opinion?

 

You are not part of their game design team? Have you even played DAI, even less seen it?

 

So please spare me the "opinion is never irrelevant".  You haven't even bought the game and played it, and already are complaining about it.

Your opinions have no merit. 

In fact, neither do mine. I could be highly disappointed in some features that I think are Ok. The difference is that positive outlooks are healthy while the negative seething I've seen in this thread is not.

[Vilegrim]

So RPG's shouldn't be allowed to evolve in the last 20 years?

 

 

difference between evolve and turn into actioners with a story line, for that hateful trend I blame the steaming pile of excrement that is the dark souls series.

[CrimsonHead]

difference between evolve and turn into actioners with a story line. 

 

That's hardly the case.

[Rawgrim]

They are simplifying some aspects while adding options to others. Stop looking at DAI through that lens.

 

So how am I not qualified to voice my opinion on this? I see you dodged that bit.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

They are simplifying some aspects while adding options to others. Stop looking at DAI through that lens.

 

So they are simplifying the stuff that does not matter to you and adding options to the stuff you want. Have you perhaps considered the possibility that Bioware might have oversimplified things which matter to others like for example more options for character stat customization. 

 

Saying that we should be content because DA:I simplied some aspects while added options to others is not an valid argument. It is both a shaming and a dismissal tactic. 

[PhroXenGold]

It has been said, time and again, on this very thread, that having the option to allow players to distribute attributes the way they wish provides more customization and more for character growth. 

 

You could for example, be a tanky mage that just uses a a few spells if you choose to focus on Constitution for your health or be a dexterous warrior by focusing on dexterity. This is called role playing where players role play the character they want, be it a well spoken & suave mage or a dextrous warrior or a tanky rogue.

 

Additionally, it has also been said on this thread, time and again, that there are plenty of people who dislike having their hand held and things being done for them. Having attributes level up on their own is auto-level which does exactly that.

 

Furthermore, Bioware has gone on record saying that crafting is an option. With this restriction, they seem to be lying about it because it now appears you have to craft weapons and armors to do well. This then leads to endless scurrying around the world like you do in an MMO to find crafting materials and then hoping that the loot gives you want you want. 

 

Additionally, game is a subjective thing. As such, expecting people to not be subjective about it, is foolish. Sadly, from your posts, you seem to have made up your mind that people who dislike this no attribute thing are whiners and moaners....

 

Except you can still do those things by shaping your equipment to fit how you want to play the character....

 

And I don't see why crafting is not optional. In all likelihood, if you just use the equipment you find, you'll have perfectly suitable stuff for a straightforward build. No need to craft. If however you want to do things differently, try different  stats, change your appearance and so on, then you have the option of doing this by crafting the specific gear your desire.

[Vilegrim]

That's hardly the case.

 

I disagree strongly, becoming a game based on AWESOME button and twitch based game play is to become not an rpg, RPG should be based on character skill and player tactics.