3034 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

That muspade fellow seems to have taken a liking to you. Like Toto to Dorothy or somethin.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes and the problem is?

What is the player for if he's not allowed to make choices?

In DA:I the game progression works like this, the concept it's not better or worse than any other system implemented in any other crpg.

A system that offers more opportunities for roleplaying is definitionally superior. It's a roleplaying game.

[Muspade]

That muspade fellow seems to have taken a liking to you. Like Toto to Dorothy or somethin.

Are you trying to ship me?

[Heimdall]

True. One can also go the simplified route. Where the characters are limited to 5 different ones. Dagger guy, bow guy, magic guy, big sword guy, and sword and shield guy. And each time you pick one of those its the same one as the one before.

Depending on abilities chosen and the player's preferred strategy, I don't see why there wouldn't be a wide range of how each character plays.

[Rawgrim]

That muspade fellow seems to have taken a liking to you. Like Toto to Dorothy or somethin.

 

Just doesn't like it when someone is critical of his favorite toy. Nothing wrong with that.

[Giubba]

Huh? You can't seriously be saying that all CRPG systems are equally good.

 

Of course they are, it's how you implement it in game that do the difference.

 

DA:O and DA2 attribute system was shallow and forgetful.

BG/NWN attribute system nailed you on your choice.

 

Both have the same start but the end was pretty different.

[nialler]

Bioware's more or less constantly eliminated choice from the equation.

 

In DAO, my rogue could focus on STR, DEX, or CUN, or any real combination of the three. I could choose from longswords, daggers, axes, maces (and greatswords, battleaxes and mauls, though those were only supported with autoattack). For range, I chould choose from longbows, shortbows, and crossbows.

 

In DAI, my rogue can't choose his own abilities, and can only use daggers. Ranged rogues can only use longbows.

 

You can harp on "but you can boost stats with gear!" all you want, but they've still eliminated about 80% of the combinations allowed through the weapon restrictions alone, and now you can't even control attribute gains.

You can still focus on strength, dexterity or cunning in DA:I using attribute bonuses from the gear you equip and craft.

 

As far as weapons, you're wrong.  You could choose from pointy things, blunt things or ranged things.  Now in DA:I you choose from two pointy things (which typically have a shorter model) or a ranged thing.  Whats the problem here?

[Rawgrim]

Are you trying to ship me?

 

I think he means I usually wear a dress.

[Elhanan]

If you wear the right armor, I imagine it'd be quite possible to have high dex on a mage, the end result is the same.
 
My question for you is why you didn't roll a warrior if you wanted to wear heavy armor?  The whole point of the Warrior/Rogue class distinction is that one is a finesse based fighter and the other is a front line soldier type.  I'd argue that perhaps the distinction shouldn't exist and there should be a single non-mage class personally, but as long as it does I don't see why Bioware must cater to your desire to break it.

One motive was that I was informed it was not viable; was better to simply use DEX or CUN. But by using higher STR and wearing heavy armor, I could shrug off more Grabs, Overwhelms, and like special attacks, and quickly go into melee if required. Now switching weapons is problematic, too.

And no need to grab STR, DEX, CuN, and perhaps CON now as a Mage if it does not help, as the game design is altered to focus on MGC and WILL.

I prefer versatility and customization in a design; not the same design as everyone else.

[cjones91]

People being negative towards 1 aspect of the game makes you feel ashamed, even if the same people loves every other aspect of the game? Critical thought is shameful, aparantly.

So is complaining about complaining.It always annoys me when someone screams "Shut up!!Stop hating what I like!" and then expect people to actually listen to them.

[Rawgrim]

Depending on abilities chosen and the player's preferred strategy, I don't see why there wouldn't be a wide range of experiences.

 

Absolutely. But the strategy also took a hit when we got forced to only use 8 of our abilities in fights.

[Paul E Dangerously]

You can still focus on strength, dexterity or cunning in DA:I using attribute bonuses from the gear you equip and craft.

 

As far as weapons, you're wrong.  You could choose from pointy things, blunt things or ranged things.  Now in DA:I you choose from two pointy things (which typically have a shorter model) or a ranged thing.  Whats the problem here?

 

The four (or seven) possible build types they've eliminated with melee, and two eliminated from range. If you always went DEX/CUN and dual daggers because it was the optimal thing, then good for you! If you wanted choice, you can heave right off. That's basically what Bioware is saying.

[nialler]

Pithy, but seemingly inaccurate. If one Rogue finds a STR item, they are seemingly less likely to select that effect over DEX or CUNNING. If a Mage finds an item with higher DEX; apparently will prefer higher MGC and WILL.

Previously, I might have selected those options, as I had builds that supported more choices. Now, they are here no longer. And I am blaming some sneaky... Witch-thief!

Unfortunately you seem to thing that certain attributes are no longer useful for all classes.  This is not true.  The only thing that has changed is the method of distributing attribute points.  Previously it was done 3 points at a time each time you leveled.  Now it is done by equipping gear you can customize and switch out at any point in the game.  Constitution will still give health, dex will still give defensive bonuses, strength will still boost damage, cunning will still still affect crits, willpower will still affect stamina, etc. etc.

[Giubba]

Bioware's more or less constantly eliminated choice from the equation.

 

In DAO, my rogue could focus on STR, DEX, or CUN, or any real combination of the three. I could choose from longswords, daggers, axes, maces (and greatswords, battleaxes and mauls, though those were only supported with autoattack). For range, I chould choose from longbows, shortbows, and crossbows.

 

In DAI, my rogue can't choose his own abilities, and can only use daggers. Ranged rogues can only use longbows.

 

You can harp on "but you can boost stats with gear!" all you want, but they've still eliminated about 80% of the combinations allowed through the weapon restrictions alone, and now you can't even control attribute gains.

 

A)Yes you can choose your ability

 

B)You can still focus on particular attribute via gear

 

C)Thanks god they restricted the weapon so melee rogue found a purpose in life and not only being a warrior that wear a weaker armor.

[philippe willaume]

well attributes used as a direct contributor, in a class based system is a massive restriction point for diversity of tactical options and a very narrow one trick pony build.

IMO it is event worse when two of the "classes" are kind of a different take on the same genre.

 

Sure it does not guarantee that a given build will have varied tactical option but at least it is easier to implement this way.

 

phil

[Rawgrim]

One motive was that I was informed it was not viable; was better to simply use DEX or CUN. But by using higher STR and wearing heavy armor, I could shrug off more Grabs, Overwhelms, and like special attacks, and quickly go into melee if required. Now switching weapons is problematic, too.

And no need to grab STR, DEX, CuN, and perhaps CON now as a Mage if it does not help, as the game design is altered to focus on MGC and WILL.

I prefer versatility and customization in a design; not the same design as everyone else.

 

 

Didn't the devs say that the keyword for this game was "Customization"? Odd choice of word in retrospect.

[Paul E Dangerously]

A)Yes you can choose your ability

 

B)You can still focus on particular attribute via gear

 

C)Thanks god they restricted the weapon so melee rogue found a purpose in life and not only being a warrior that wear a weaker armor.

 

Who needs choice or re-playability? The one-lane highway is the only lane for me.

 

And for the record, my last character was a rogue that wore heavy (or massive) armor, but still could use stealth, traps, and archery if I wanted.

[nialler]

The four (or seven) possible build types they've eliminated with melee, and two eliminated from range. If you always went DEX/CUN and dual daggers because it was the optimal thing, then good for you! If you wanted choice, you can heave right off. That's basically what Bioware is saying.

There is still plenty of choice, my friend.  And more choice than in DA:O, when you consider how you run your inquisition and the war table, missions, judgments, etc.  

 

Also, consider the dual wielding trees and the archery trees were the exact same for warriors and rogues in DA:O.  Now, in separating them between the classes, they were able to differentiate the play styles.  Maybe less choice quantitatively, yes, but also possibly more choice qualitatively.  This is not a zero sum game.

[Rawgrim]

A)Yes you can choose your ability

 

B)You can still focus on particular attribute via gear

 

C)Thanks god they restricted the weapon so melee rogue found a purpose in life and not only being a warrior that wear a weaker armor.

 

You could add that restriction to your party yourself. No need to force it on everyone else.

[Muspade]

Just doesn't like it when someone is critical of his favorite toy. Nothing wrong with that.

I think he means I usually wear a dress.

It better be Prada or you may as well throw it out.

[Elhanan]

No it's not because it depend on which ability taken from the different tree each player will choose for his character so that point or two more of strength will be good for my warrior/reaver but not so good for yours warrior/templar.

Possibly true, but we also have only a single sub-class this time, too; perhaps not the best example of versatility either. And Specializations were also different for the other games, as a Blood Mage could benefit from higher CON, and AW could benefit from DEX. Now every sub-class is likely to be the same as another Player design of the same sub-class.

[The Elder King]

There is still plenty of choice, my friend.  And more choice than in DA:O, when you consider how you run your inquisition and the war table, missions, judgments, etc.  
 
Also, consider the dual wielding trees and the archery trees were the exact same for warriors and rogues in DA:O.  Now, in separating them between the classes, they were able to differentiate the play styles.  Maybe less choice quantitatively, yes, but also possibly more choice qualitatively.  This is not a zero sum game.

To be Fair, there are more choices in other areas of the game, Not for building your character for combat.

[Nohvarr]

We now know that Rogues fight differently depending on if they are using punching daggers or blades, and that  Warrior with a great sword fights differently than one using a hammer or maul. So new choices added.

[Paul E Dangerously]

There is still plenty of choice, my friend.  And more choice than in DA:O, when you consider how you run your inquisition and the war table, missions, judgments, etc.  

 

Also, consider the dual wielding trees and the archery trees were the exact same for warriors and rogues in DA:O.  Now, in separating them between the classes, they were able to differentiate the play styles.  Maybe less choice quantitatively, yes, but also possibly more choice qualitatively.  This is not a zero sum game.

 

It's a bit like adding a new story to your house while removing three-quarters of the foundation. It's better on the surface, but it's only great if you don't look at it too closely.

[Giubba]

What is the player for if he's not allowed to make choices?

You still have a lot of option, simply they are given to you in a form you don't like.

A system that offers more opportunities for roleplaying is definitionally superior. It's a roleplaying game.

False.

Awakening gave you so many abilities that by end of the game you didn't have the physical space on the pc toolbar for allocating all of them.
So quantity of option isn't inerently superior, it's how those option are implemented that make the difference.