3034 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Yet Varric - a rogue skilled in traps - has a higher Cunning score. i can see logic behind the fact that Cunning in and of itself shouldn't really be enough to disarm traps. Some skill at Disarming Traps should allow you to Disarm a trap. Learning how to disarm traps increases your Cunning as you understand how the fiendish things operate.

I tend not to compare specialized NPC's, and the Artificer sub-class will likely never get used by myself as Inquisitor.

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 octobre 2014 - 02:51 .

[Lumix19]

I tend not to compare specialized NPC's, and the Alchemist sub-class will likely never get used by myself as Inquisitor.

I think you mean Artificer.

[Elhanan]

Fair. Though if, as a Rogue, you placed most of your ability points into passives granting something like Willpower and not passives boosting Cunning you really only have yourself to blame. You can't be good at everything.
 
Indeed. Is Disarming Traps even tied to Cunning?

I do not mind making mistakes learning new builds, but this seems to be a reason why Attributes were removed from Player control.

And Cunning was tied to the Skill in both prior games.

[Lumix19]

I do not mind making mistakes learning new builds, but this seems to be a reason why Attributes were removed from Player control.

And Cunning was tied to the Skill in both prior games.

Indeed. I suspect some Rogue passives will provide boosts to the "traditional" Rogue skills of Cunning and Dexterity. That's not to say however that there aren't other passives that will allow you to branch out into other attributes like Willpower etc. if you so desire.

[KennethAFTopp]

Honestly, I think this kinda sucks, I personally like spending a few more points in Con on a rogue than what would be recommended I guess. 

And if there was an option for a rogue to use one handed longswords and so on, yeah I would like the option to also spend a little in strength instead of Attributes being automatically allocated, but I've always been an advocate of lower numbers but higher value attributes such as in the SPECIAL system or the D&D asystem.

It feels like they're more and more pigeon holing the classes than I would like, and it would be great with a little more leeway in character builds, weapons and Attributes included.

[Dunbartacus]

Im pretty sure some rogue passives will give bonus willpower. my current mage build has + 6 constitution + 6 magic and + 9 willpower so their seems to be some diversity in stat bonuses.

 

I also think we only gain attributes through gear and passives, the stat screens in the op seem to support this.

[KoorahUK]

I tend not to compare specialized NPC's, and the Alchemist sub-class will likely never get used by myself as Inquisitor.

Thats fair enough, but it doesn't change the fact that Cunning itself may not be how trap disarms are achieved in this game. It may for instance be an inherent rogue ability, or it may be something in a default rogue tree. 

[In Exile]

I think this is why we see DMG being tied to weapons now, too. 

[Lumix19]

Honestly, I think this kinda sucks, I personally like spending a few more points in Con on a rogue than what would be recommended I guess. 

And if there was an option for a rogue to use one handed longswords and so on, yeah I would like the option to also spend a little in strength instead of Attributes being automatically allocated, but I've always been an advocate of lower numbers but higher value attributes such as in the SPECIAL system or the D&D asystem.

It feels like they're more and more pigeon holing the classes than I would like, and it would be great with a little more leeway in character builds, weapons and Attributes included.

Attributes aren't automatically added (unless someone knows something different). It's just attribute boosts are now tied to passives and gear. Still a great amount of diversity there.

They're only restricting what sort of weapons you can wield, not necessarily your playstyle. If you want to play a support role for Rogues you can, just as you can play as a sneaky, backstabbing rogue or a long range archer or whatever.

[EnduinRaylene]

I do not mind making mistakes learning new builds, but this seems to be a reason why Attributes were removed from Player control.

And Cunning was tied to the Skill in both prior games.

If the bulk of attributes are based on bonuses from equipment then it's not really out of player control at all. It's just not a permanent choice, but one that can and will vary depending on the how the player decides to equip their party members, in addition to the Passive Abilities they choose which many provide permanent increases to certain attributes, though they seem negligible compared to what the equipment can provide since it's only a few attribute points compared to tens of them. It does remove the chance of players permanently breaking a build since all you have to do is change armors or weapons, but that's not really a bad thing. 

 

If it's robust enough you can likely easily try out different builds like a high Dex warrior. Though whether or not the attributes are actually designed to be useful across all classes remains to be seen.

[aeoncs]

No; unconventional builds like a DW Rogue wielding sword & axe are no longer possible, or a Hybrid Archer/ DW that can kill at range or in close melee, or a DW Warrior, Archer Warrior, etc. These past builds are apparently here no longer....

 

... which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, namely attribute points.

Not to mention that it's extremely hard to properly balance a game with cross-class/weapon combinations. Origins was laughably easy once you knew how to exploit its mechanics.

[In Exile]

If the bulk of attributes are based on bonuses from equipment then it's not really out of player control at all. It's just not a permanent choice, but one that can and will vary depending on the how the player decides to equip their party members, in addition to the Passive Abilities they choose which many provide permanent increases to certain attributes, though they seem negligible compared to what the equipment can provide since it's only a few attribute points compared to tens of them. It does remove the chance of players permanently breaking a build since all you have to do is change armors or weapons, but that's not really a bad thing. 

 

If it's robust enough you can likely easily try out different builds like a high Dex warrior. Though whether or not the attributes are actually designed to be useful across all classes remains to be seen.

 

The problem is that you're then at the mercy of the RNG, either in terms of crafting supplies or item drops. 

[Lumix19]

The problem is that you're then at the mercy of the RNG, either in terms of crafting supplies or item drops. 

Unless you can buy crafting supplies at shops. Also it makes it much easier to change your build if you feel like it since you can simply change armor/weapons.

[EnduinRaylene]

The problem is that you're then at the mercy of the RNG, either in terms of crafting supplies or item drops. 

True, but do we actually know how loot is generated in DAI? How much is RNG and how much is hand placed, how does the RNG even work and take into consideration your party, level, area/enemy levels, etc etc. What about vendors and their inventories? All out found loot might suck but if we can get some good gold off it we could probably buy worthwhile stuff. I mean it makes sense to expect the worst to some degree, but BioWare games before, outside ME1, were never bad about loot in my experience. Crafting low/mid level items might be easy and only the really great stuff is hard.

 

If 90% of our characters attributes are dependent on equipment I'm fairly confident the loot system will be balanced to take that into consideration. 

[aeoncs]

The problem is that you're then at the mercy of the RNG, either in terms of crafting supplies or item drops. 

 

Ehm.. what? How is a crafting system that doesn't rely on attribute/passive procs supposed to be limited by RNG? Makes no sense.

Unless you're taking about actually farming the materials, which shouldn't be that much of a problem. A good crafting system is by no means an unappreciated feature.

And as the above poster already mentioned, we have no idea how exactly the loot is generated - e.g. if it's affected by your team composition or favors the PCs class/specialization and so on.

[Elhanan]

If the bulk of attributes are based on bonuses from equipment then it's not really out of player control at all. It's just not a permanent choice, but one that can and will vary depending on the how the player decides to equip their party members, in addition to the Passive Abilities they choose which many provide permanent increases to certain attributes, though they seem negligible compared to what the equipment can provide since it's only a few attribute points compared to tens of them. It does remove the chance of players permanently breaking a build since all you have to do is change armors or weapons, but that's not really a bad thing. 
 
If it's robust enough you can likely easily try out different builds like a high Dex warrior. Though whether or not the attributes are actually designed to be useful across all classes remains to be seen.

Even if true, having Heavy armor that supplies the STR to wear it seems less effective than having the STR inherently on the PC. One might lose armor, or have it stolen, confiscated, etc. Even worse would be to be reliant on devices for Magic or Willpower, as the loss of said device would seemingly make a Mage quite vulnerable.

Again, I like the idea of more item customization, but am not a fan of losing the Player's control of the character build to get it.

[EnduinRaylene]

Even if true, having Heavy armor that supplies the STR to wear it seems less effective than having the STR inherently on the PC. One might lose armor, or have it stolen, confiscated, etc. Even worse would be to be reliant on devices for Magic or Willpower, as the loss of said device would seemingly make a Mage quite vulnerable.

Again, I like the idea of more item customization, but am not a fan of losing the Player's control of the character build to get it.

There are definitely trade offs. With what we know now it's not a complete win win scenario, but I do think it has it's merits. Whether those merits will outweigh the negatives remains to be seen. Hopefully we'll get more info on whether or not level truly does auto allocate skill points or not all and more on how attributes work mechanically. 

[In Exile]

Unless you can buy crafting supplies at shops. Also it makes it much easier to change your build if you feel like it since you can simply change armor/weapons.

 

That's a fair point, with the caveat that you're ignoring the interplay between abilities and stats. You can play around with your stats, but your abilities are set (right, there's no respec?) and so it doesn't necessarily help you can alter the stats. 

[In Exile]

True, but do we actually know how loot is generated in DAI? How much is RNG and how much is hand placed, how does the RNG even work and take into consideration your party, level, area/enemy levels, etc etc. What about vendors and their inventories? All out found loot might suck but if we can get some good gold off it we could probably buy worthwhile stuff. I mean it makes sense to expect the worst to some degree, but BioWare games before, outside ME1, were never bad about loot in my experience. Crafting low/mid level items might be easy and only the really great stuff is hard.

 

If 90% of our characters attributes are dependent on equipment I'm fairly confident the loot system will be balanced to take that into consideration. 

 

You're more optimistic than I am. Bioware games are 60% combat, but that doesn't mean their combat is the best balanced. 

 

Ehm.. what? How is a crafting system that doesn't rely on attribute/passive procs supposed to be limited by RNG? Makes no sense.

Unless you're taking about actually farming the materials, which shouldn't be that much of a problem. A good crafting system is by no means an unappreciated feature.

And as the above poster already mentioned, we have no idea how exactly the loot is generated - e.g. if it's affected by your team composition or favors the PCs class/specialization and so on.

 

I was talking about farming the materials. I know that I'm principle my concern is unjustified - we don't know the mechanics of the loot/crafting materials. But I don't think Bioware, traditionally, has done a good job with these systems. So I'm skeptical. 

[EnduinRaylene]

That's a fair point, with the caveat that you're ignoring the interplay between abilities and stats. You can play around with your stats, but your abilities are set (right, there's no respec?) and so it doesn't necessarily help you can alter the stats. 

There is a respect potions or trinket. I believe they said you get a free one around mid game and can buy more.

[Elhanan]

... which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, namely attribute points.
Not to mention that it's extremely hard to properly balance a game with cross-class/weapon combinations. Origins was laughably easy when you knew how to exploit its mechanics.

Simply answering the question posited to me; context is important. Those Class builds are no longer possible due to restrictions in this game; some of which are tied directly to Attributes.

Any game is easier when exploited, but I prefer not to use said exploits when I play. Rather use a single Console Command than spam the crafting of potions or daggers for XP or profit. And I avoid exploits that make combat insignificant; defeats my purpose for purchasing the game. Etc.

And balance may be important for DA-MP, but for solo games, not as much. One plays a single character only.

[Ghostjs]

There is a respect potions or trinket. I believe they said you get a free one around mid game and can buy more.

 

Allen Schumacher said that the first respec potion you get is after the prologue, not midway through the game.

 

 

No to both, though once you're done the initial prologue (takes me about 10 minutes) you can get your first respec potion for free (or maybe 1 coin).  After that you can buy an indefinite number of respec potions, though they have a tangible cost associated with them.

 

 

edit: added bold and forgot to add the following line.

 

 

To be clear, the respec potion applies to ability/skill points, not attributes.

 

[KoorahUK]

There is a respect potions or trinket. I believe they said you get a free one around mid game and can buy more.

Think Allan said it didn't affect Attributes though - however if all your attributes can from abilities and gear then I guess that's not important! Be nice to know what Mikes Tweet about attributes "Growing as you level" actually means.

[EnduinRaylene]

 

Allen Schumacher said that the first respec potion you get is after the prologue, not midway through the game.

 

 

 

Thanks, even better.

[KoorahUK]

And balance may be important for DA-MP, but for solo games, not as much. One plays a single character only.

Not strictly true. Balance is not player v player in this context, its balancing the challenge level of the encounter which is tru in single player as well as multiplayer because they are the exact same system.

 

It was certainly possible through good attribute stacking to create extreme builds so powerful they would absolutely wipe the floor with everything the game could throw at you or so bad you struggled to get past even the simplest encounter. Its the gulf between these two extremes BioWare felt was the problem because they want to give consistant combat balance troughout the game ratehr the hard at the beginnign and easy at the end. This change is part of their strategy as I understand it. 

Please lets not open the multiplayer worm can again, not sure I can deal with all the frothing at the mouth