3034 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

You get the exact same "flexibility" to create a Dex Mage or a Cunning Warrior in DAI, it's just the way to distribute the attributes that changed. There was little reasons to invest in none-class stats (beside constitution/willpower*) for any of the classes in DAO and none in DA2 anyway.
 
All of DAO talents had stats requirements forcing you to invest in specific stats to get new talents for your class. Dexterity Warrior was a thing, because Warrior could dual wield and it depends on Dexterity (along with a few of their class talents).
 
In DA2, gears had stats requirements forcing you to invest in specific stats to use better gears for your class. On top of that, investing in none-class stats just meant getting pitiful bonus compared to what you would get from your class-stats. Strength only provide better Fortitude for not!Warriors, but it improve all the attacks of a Warrior (damage, to-hit, abilities, etc).
 
*Constitution and Willpower are not class related stats, they provide the same bonus to all the classes in both DAO and DA2.

DAO allowed for STR Rogues, DEX Mages, and Cunning Warriors. Now with pre-sets, these are likely not supported. No reason to increase an Attribute that does not benefit the class, except for RP.

DA2 restricted weapons and armors, but still allowed for a Player's choice of Attributes. While not as effective as DAO, one could still choose.

* Mages might disagree.

[Quietwulf]

Personally, I like the change.

 

I think it'll lead to more flexibility and build choice.

[Morroian]

again you are getting the chance to customize your party more often than you normally would in a normal level based rpg, how is this robbing you of anything?

 

We're playing the role of the inquisitor, he is the protagonist not just 1 of the party. 

[Elhanan]

Personally, I like the change.
 
I think it'll lead to more flexibility and build choice.

A few others have said this, but I cannot see how removing options can increase choices. While I am for a wider selection of gear, allowing and supporting Player base designs would seem to yield greater results.

While DAI may allow for STR gear for a Rogue, if the base Rogue design fails to support this choice, then this does not offset the change. Burnt cookies do not count....

[Quietwulf]

A few others have said this, but I cannot see how removing options can increase choices. While I am for a wider selection of gear, allowing and supporting Player base designs would seem to yield greater results.

While DAI may allow for STR gear for a Rogue, if the base Rogue design fails to support this choice, then this does not offset the change. Burnt cookies do not count....

 

All design is about trade offs.  There is no perfect design.  

I don't see it as "removing options".  I see it as offering several benefits.  

 

By creating a predictable "base" power curve for a party, encounter designers are better able to tune the difficulty of the game.  They know roughly what a lvl 10 party will comprise of, in terms of HP and Damage potential.  This leads to a smoother leveling curve and fewer unintended difficulty spikes, born out of poorly built characters.  It also avoids players being grossly overpowered at certain points of the game, breaking encounters and making it difficult to address the balance.  E.g. Is an encounter broken because we undertuned a class? Or because a set of players broke their characters, then blamed it on the game?

 

By moving stats away from characters and onto gear, you allow players the flexibility of changing focus mid game, should their existing strategy be proving unfun.  At 150 hours a play through, I wouldn't want to get 20 hours in and discover I had gimped myself because I chose to focus on a play style that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped.  

 

It also means the party can be reconfigured between missions to better suit a given challenge.  I don't see this as being much different to 'equipping cold resist gear' when fighting a frost dragon.  If I'm finding a certain boss too difficult, I may choose to stack more vitality.  Or perhaps I'll focus more on critical damage.  The approach can be freely experimented with.

 

I'm not a fan of "meta-gaming".  I believe a player should be able to learn a game through play, not having to do extensive research outside of the game.  I find systems that force early, permanent choices before the player can make an informed decision to be needlessly frustrating.

 

Finally, my primary focus is on the moment to moment gameplay experience.  I'm not interested in min/maxing, or playing with spread sheets to figure out the "correct" builds.  I simply want to enough flexibility to experiment, while having solid, core gameplay experience.

[Morroian]

By creating a predictable "base" power curve for a party, encounter designers are better able to tune the difficulty of the game.  They know roughly what a lvl 10 party will comprise of, in terms of HP and Damage potential.  This leads to a smoother leveling curve and fewer unintended difficulty spikes, born out of poorly built characters.  This same technique is used in "World of Warcraft" and "Diablo III" to smooth our their curves.

 

By moving stats away from characters and onto gear, you allow players the flexibility of changing focuses mid game, should their existing strategy be proving unfun.  At 150 hours a play through, I wouldn't want to get 20 hours in and discover I had gimped myself because I chose to focus on a play style that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped.  

 

It also means the party can be reconfigured between missions to better suit a given challenge.  I don't see this as being much different to 'equipping cold resist gear' when fighting a frost dragon.  If I'm finding a certain boss too difficult, I may choose to stack more vitality.  Or perhaps I'll focus more on critical damage.  The approach can be freely experimented with.

 

Finally, my primary focus is on the moment to moment gameplay experience.  I'm not interested in min/maxing, or playing with spread sheets to figure out the "correct" builds.  I simply want to enough flexibility to experiment without the frustration of wasting hours of play because the game decided to lock me in before I knew better.

 

Wow and D3 are hardly good comparisons for a single player rpg. I understand about the trade offs but the fact is many of us think those trade offs are unacceptable because they remove rpg elements. In a single player game who cares about difficulty spikes so long as you can turn down the difficulty to progress.

 

As for your point about the advantages of gear, providing respecs does exactly the same thing. We weren't locked into a spec in DA2 because the respec potions were available and will be available in DAI from the feedback. Plus in your scenario you will end up carrying around a few sets of gear taking up room in your inventory.

[eyezonlyii]

i dont understand the point of a one handed weapon rogue, what are they doing with that free hand and please don't say they use the fencing style of fighting or i'll gag, Ha, seriously.. a year ago when we were seeing early photoage of the game they showed one of the enemy mages with a spell book while casting a spell, i was so hyped in thinking they added a new weapon to the mages weapon repertoire I started thinking how they could make it different from the staff so that both could exist within the class. However my idea would have required spellcasting to be reworked a lot so that is isn't like how the other 2 classes skills are now, which is what are like as of now but *shrug* also BioWare has a hard on for not allowing anything even remotely similar to a monk in their games as of present especially DA, going so far as to giving us a loading screen in DA or was DA2 that specifically says never go into unarmed. I don't know what the deal is but its so apparent that in DA2 you can't actually fight unarmed, you will always have a default weapon of the class in your hands even if unarmed.

If not a monk, then something. I don't understand why warriors and rogues get two weapon choices each and ALL mages use a staff. I want to dual wand now!

[Quietwulf]

Wow and D3 are hardly good comparisons for a single player rpg. I understand about the trade offs but the fact is many of us think those trade offs are unacceptable because they remove rpg elements. In a single player game who cares about difficulty spikes so long as you can turn down the difficulty to progress.

 

As for your point about the advantages of gear, providing respecs does exactly the same thing. We weren't locked into a spec in DA2 because the respec potions were available and will be available in DAI from the feedback. Plus in your scenario you will end up carrying around a few sets of gear taking up room in your inventory.

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I simply don't share it.

 

I don't see "RPG"s as requiring stat allocation.  See Skyrim for example.  It doesn't have an attribute system at all (unless you class health, magic and stamina I guess).  So long as you are able to customise your character (to a fair degree), then I'm happy.

[ProphetEars]

I think it's gonna be awesome! Can't wait to design mutliple gear loadouts for each of my characters. I plan on trying to use as many combinations of skills, gear, and companions as I can on the first run though so that when i tackle it on Nightmare I've had some experience with a variety of builds and strategies. Being able to carry around a few different weapons/armor for each character with cleverly crafted bonuses combined with using tactical camera and stealth tactics to plan ahead is going to be so much fun.

I loved the re-spec potions of DA2 to blank slate my sklls for roleplay purposes (and get rid of pesky lvl 1 pre-chosen spells) but really have never cared for the manual attribute point distribution really at all. I'm more about figuring out the coolest cross class combos and trying out all the abilities and spells the game has to offer, in this case setting up "Detonators" in an efficient manner as well as good defense/damage mitigation.

Crafting looks totally awesome this time around and I can't wait to name my creations with epic and hilarious themes to match my loadouts. Inquisition perks will also help customize the playthrough and add to re-play value.
 

[Elhanan]

All design is about trade offs.  There is no perfect design.  
I don't see it as "removing options".  I see it as offering several benefits.  
 
By creating a predictable "base" power curve for a party, encounter designers are better able to tune the difficulty of the game.  They know roughly what a lvl 10 party will comprise of, in terms of HP and Damage potential.  This leads to a smoother leveling curve and fewer unintended difficulty spikes, born out of poorly built characters.  This same technique is used in "World of Warcraft" and "Diablo III" to smooth our their curves.
 
By moving stats away from characters and onto gear, you allow players the flexibility of changing focuses mid game, should their existing strategy be proving unfun.  At 150 hours a play through, I wouldn't want to get 20 hours in and discover I had gimped myself because I chose to focus on a play style that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped.  
 
It also means the party can be reconfigured between missions to better suit a given challenge.  I don't see this as being much different to 'equipping cold resist gear' when fighting a frost dragon.  If I'm finding a certain boss too difficult, I may choose to stack more vitality.  Or perhaps I'll focus more on critical damage.  The approach can be freely experimented with.
 
Finally, my primary focus is on the moment to moment gameplay experience.  I'm not interested in min/maxing, or playing with spread sheets to figure out the "correct" builds.  I simply want to enough flexibility to experiment without the frustration of wasting hours of play because the game decided to lock me in before I knew better.

* While possible, this would seem to work if said group enters said area at that lvl. As DAI will allow for exploration and give warnings of Lvl Differences, the same results would seemingly occur with varied class designs. And I do not play either game example by choice, so there is that.

Also, prior DA games also allowed for Auto-selection, so the change to base designs is on the Player. While not every new design is a winner, finding ones with versatility, adaptability, and are varied from the norm may seem like one.

* As mentioned, prior DA games allowed for both Auto-select, and Player choice. As a layer, I shoulder the responsibility for my choices, and have been known to restart for an improved design, or simply a face that looked poor in cut-scenes. But am guessing that cutting CC to a single base design would also not be widely accepted.

* Re-configuration would occur either way; more so now when Players are locked into eight tactical choices only.

* Am also not into min/ max; reason I chose to play DAO characters with higher STR, WILL, and less DEX, STR, etc than recommended. Now the game chooses to min/ max for us. Now one is locked in anyway without the prior option.

[Morroian]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I simply don't share it.

 

I don't see "RPG"s as requiring stat allocation.  See Skyrim for example.  It doesn't have an attribute system at all (unless you class health, magic and stamina I guess).  

 

Health magicka and stamina are stat allocations.

[Paul E Dangerously]

All design is about trade offs.  There is no perfect design.  

I don't see it as "removing options".  I see it as offering several benefits.  

 

By creating a predictable "base" power curve for a party, encounter designers are better able to tune the difficulty of the game.  They know roughly what a lvl 10 party will comprise of, in terms of HP and Damage potential.  This leads to a smoother leveling curve and fewer unintended difficulty spikes, born out of poorly built characters.  This same technique is used in "World of Warcraft" and "Diablo III" to smooth our their curves.

 

By moving stats away from characters and onto gear, you allow players the flexibility of changing focuses mid game, should their existing strategy be proving unfun.  At 150 hours a play through, I wouldn't want to get 20 hours in and discover I had gimped myself because I chose to focus on a play style that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped.  

 

It also means the party can be reconfigured between missions to better suit a given challenge.  I don't see this as being much different to 'equipping cold resist gear' when fighting a frost dragon.  If I'm finding a certain boss too difficult, I may choose to stack more vitality.  Or perhaps I'll focus more on critical damage.  The approach can be freely experimented with.

 

Finally, my primary focus is on the moment to moment gameplay experience.  I'm not interested in min/maxing, or playing with spread sheets to figure out the "correct" builds.  I simply want to enough flexibility to experiment without the frustration of wasting hours of play because the game decided to lock me in before I knew better.

 

I think the thing is, for a lot of us, it's been one long, constant string of removal of options.

1. First it was weapon choice - Warriors from 10 to 7, Rogues from 7 to 3. - not counting the "unsupported" options, which raised it to ten per class.
2. Armor was restricted as well, meaning that some classes were almost totally locked out of a lot of viable options.
3. Then the abilities were cut down to eight actives maximum, with the total inability to switch them during battle.
4. The inventory was locked off entirely in combat, meaning that if you have a better weapon for a fight that you don't have equipped, you get to reload or run away and go to the menu, swap, and do it all over again.
5. Now we can no longer control our own attribute gains, aside from what the crafting system allows. The crafting system that's supposed to be optional.

Now, I get why some people don't mind this.

 

The Warden was mine from the get-go. I could decide if I wanted to be strong or agile, tough or cunning, or if I wanted to have limitless endurance. I could decide what types of weapons I wanted to use, what armor I wanted to wear, and how many abilities I could use in battle. I could switch weapons if I needed to in combat, including from ranged to melee - which was damned useful fighting dragons, because the area sweeps made the main rogue tactic (and the only rogue melee tactic in DAI), backstabbing, pretty dicey.

 

I can't really do any of that in DAI. It's a default template and I get to choose what hat he wears. If you can even wear hats, which Qunari can't. Even if they've got no horns. My weapon choice is absolutely locked in stone and I can never deviate depending on class (mage, rogue), and the armor's going to be restricted again as well.

 

In DAO, I could play melee rogues with eight different combinations of melee weapons and stats before even considering specializations, abilities, and gear. In DAI, you've got one melee choice, and no stat control.

[xkg]

All design is about trade offs.  There is no perfect design.  

I don't see it as "removing options".  I see it as offering several benefits.  

 

By creating a predictable "base" power curve for a party, encounter designers are better able to tune the difficulty of the game.  They know roughly what a lvl 10 party will comprise of, in terms of HP and Damage potential.  This leads to a smoother leveling curve and fewer unintended difficulty spikes, born out of poorly built characters.  It also avoids players being grossly overpowered at certain points of the game, breaking encounters and making it difficult to address the balance.  E.g. Is an encounter broken because we undertuned a class? Or because a set of players broke their characters, then blamed it on the game?

 

By moving stats away from characters and onto gear, you allow players the flexibility of changing focus mid game, should their existing strategy be proving unfun.  At 150 hours a play through, I wouldn't want to get 20 hours in and discover I had gimped myself because I chose to focus on a play style that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped.  

 

It also means the party can be reconfigured between missions to better suit a given challenge.  I don't see this as being much different to 'equipping cold resist gear' when fighting a frost dragon.  If I'm finding a certain boss too difficult, I may choose to stack more vitality.  Or perhaps I'll focus more on critical damage.  The approach can be freely experimented with.

 

I'm not a fan of "meta-gaming".  I believe a player should be able to learn a game through play, not having to do extensive research outside of the game.  I find systems that force early, permanent choices before the player can make an informed decision to be needlessly frustrating.

 

Finally, my primary focus is on the moment to moment gameplay experience.  I'm not interested in min/maxing, or playing with spread sheets to figure out the "correct" builds.  I simply want to enough flexibility to experiment, while having solid, core gameplay experience.

 

About the bolded part and 2 previous games.

 

(DA:O - part of the character screen)

 

It has to be repeated everytime this argument shows up.

[Lucidae]

Can people please stop using auto level up as justification for their arguments? Yes it was an option, but that doesn't mean it is something people wanted to engage in. On my first character who I messed up, I didn't even NOTICE the auto level up for quite some time. Even when I did I've never used that option in games because I don't want the game to make decisions for me and I want to try and do it on my own.

I think the changes will be better for new players. The amount of customizability will be the same if not more than before, just executed in a different way.

If niche builds can no longer be a thing, are you really that surprised? Bioware has iterated many times that they want to create a stronger defining line between classes in this game. However, if I remember correctly we are allowed to wear any gear regardless of class provided we meet some sort of requirements. So maybe it isn't all lost for those who enjoy niche builds.

But omg Lucidae we can't equip that gear without meeting stat requirements that we can no longe achieve via level up.
My idea in response to that is wear accessories that supplement the requirements. Accessories have very rarely been stat restricted to equip.

[seraphymon]

Can people please stop using auto level up as justification for their arguments? Yes it was an option, but that doesn't mean it is something people wanted to engage in. On my first character who I messed up, I didn't even NOTICE the auto level up for quite some time. Even when I did I've never used that option in games because I don't want the game to make decisions for me and I want to try and do it on my own.

I think the changes will be better for new players. The amount of customizability will be the same if not more than before, just executed in a different way.

If niche builds can no longer be a thing, are you really that surprised? Bioware has iterated many times that they want to create a stronger defining line between classes in this game. However, if I remember correctly we are allowed to wear any gear regardless of class provided we meet some sort of requirements. So maybe it isn't all lost for those who enjoy niche builds.

But omg Lucidae we can't equip that gear without meeting stat requirements that we can no longe achieve via level up.
My idea in response to that is wear accessories that supplement the requirements. Accessories have very rarely been stat restricted to equip.

Isn't this exactly what we are arguing for? the ability make those decisions on our own such as stat allocation upon level up?  We use that auto level up argument because there are those that want it down automatically and it was always an option. The fact that people miss or never notice it is the player's fault.

[Elhanan]

Can people please stop using auto level up as justification for their arguments? Yes it was an option, but that doesn't mean it is something people wanted to engage in. On my first character who I messed up, I didn't even NOTICE the auto level up for quite some time. Even when I did I've never used that option in games because I don't want the game to make decisions for me and I want to try and do it on my own.

I think the changes will be better for new players. The amount of customizability will be the same if not more than before, just executed in a different way.

If niche builds can no longer be a thing, are you really that surprised? Bioware has iterated many times that they want to create a stronger defining line between classes in this game. However, if I remember correctly we are allowed to wear any gear regardless of class provided we meet some sort of requirements. So maybe it isn't all lost for those who enjoy niche builds.

But omg Lucidae we can't equip that gear without meeting stat requirements that we can no longe achieve via level up.
My idea in response to that is wear accessories that supplement the requirements. Accessories have very rarely been stat restricted to equip.

Forcing Auto-Lvl on everyone does not seem to be the answer some like myself seek, but leaving the options for each indv Player seems fair. Removing choice is not what Bioware seems to desire either, as they have spent a great deal of time for CC and item customization; simply want the same kinda thing for class, weapons, armor, etc.

Let the indv Player choose whether to craft their own characters, or select the base designs of the game. While mistakes can be made, that is our choice, as is the one to excel.

[Lucidae]

Isn't this exactly what we are arguing for? the ability make those decisions on our own such as stat allocation upon level up? We use that auto level up argument because there are those that want it down automatically and it was always an option. The fact that people miss or never notice it is the player's fault.

You still have choice, the game won't pick your gear and its stats for you. You now have more customizable power over your gear than ever before. You pick it. As I say farther down the post it is now executed differently is all.

P.s. Not noticing a feature isn't entirely a player's fault. It is also the design team's fault in part too for not making it more noticeable.

[seraphymon]

You still have choice, the game won't pick your gear and its stats for you. You now have more customizable power over your gear than ever before. You pick it. As I say farther down the post it is now executed differently is all.

If your stats are auto allocated upon level up (which is believed to be the case) it is picking our base stats for us.   The little crafting we were given, we could already choose stats or special effects.   Yes, now we have far more control and variety for crafting. Thats all well and good. A highly welcomed addition indeed, but that doesnt mean other things should be taken away, adding to the whole notion of taking player choice away more and more with each game.   Plus they said crafting is OPTIONAL, oh but wait you want to allocate your own stats in some way? then its mandatory.

[KoorahUK]

About the bolded part and 2 previous games.


(DA:O - part of the character screen)

It has to be repeated everytime this argument shows up.

Didn't auto level also select your skills and abilities for you? If so its not the same thing at all.

[akabane_k]

They're probably trying reduce difference between a normal character and a min-maxed one. If you got 3 more stats per level, plus gear, plus stats from passives, you could have twice or more str/magic/cunning as a person who just autoleveled and used whatever gear they picked up. They'd have to stratify the difficulty levels a lot more.

Also, the derivative of dmg with respect to level would be a lot higher, making enemies much below or above your level either a joke or impossible. This would put you on a rather narrow path of where you could go. Combined with the no health regen, getting through any area above your level would be nearly impossible.

[Lucidae]

If your stats are auto allocated upon level up (which is believed to be the case) it is picking our base stats for us.   The little crafting we were given, we could already choose stats or special effects.   Yes, now we have far more control and variety for crafting. Thats all well and good. A highly welcomed addition indeed, but that doesnt mean other things should be taken away, adding to the whole notion of taking player choice away more and more with each game.   Plus they said crafting is OPTIONAL, oh but wait you want to allocate your own stats in some way? then its mandatory.

The only for sure information that we have about base stats are from a VERY vague tweet. People are instantly assuming that if they are playing a Mage, every time they level up they'll get two points in magic and one in willpower (just example). Since the combat system has been completely revamped it is highly likely that this is NOT the case. For all we know every two levels we get one point in each stat or something else.

And you're talking like in the past if you wanted to do a special build it didn't require special effort. One if the biggest justifications of many people's arguments in this thread are that choosing to distribute your attribute points was optional with auto level up. However, for those niche builds that some people love it was a requirement to use manual level up, using different gear, etc.

Also.... Taking away more player choice each game? One of the selling points of DAI is how it is overall more customizable than most RPGs on the market, and that includes their own games. I remember a post a guy made about how excited he was to try different gear sets for the stats. In reality we now have more options because we are no longer locked into a stat build in the vanilla game.

In reality, the people who are most upset about this change are people who are fundamentalists and dislike change.

[xkg]

Didn't auto level also select your skills and abilities for you? If so its not the same thing at all.

 

No, it worked like this in DAO/DA2 :

 

You level up.

Now you go and set whetever you want manually. (for example - set your attributes, skills and Leave abilities untouched)

Hit "Auto level up" button. All that hasn't been set in previous step, will be auto allocated now (following our example - abilities).

 

As you can see, you can choose what to set by yourself and what to "auto level up".

[seraphymon]

The only for sure information that we have about base stats are from a VERY vague tweet. People are instantly assuming that if they are playing a Mage, every time they level up they'll get two points in magic and one in willpower (just example). Since the combat system has been completely revamped it is highly likely that this is NOT the case. For all we know every two levels we get one point in each stat or something else.

And you're talking like in the past if you wanted to do a special build it didn't require special effort. One if the biggest justifications of many people's arguments in this thread are that choosing to distribute your attribute points was optional with auto level up. However, for those niche builds that some people love it was a requirement to use manual level up, using different gear, etc.

Also.... Taking away more player choice each game? One of the selling points of DAI is how it is overall more customizable than most RPGs on the market, and that includes their own games. I remember a post a guy made about how excited he was to try different gear sets for the stats. In reality we now have more options because we are no longer locked into a stat build in the vanilla game.

In reality, the people who are most upset about this change are people who are fundamentalists and dislike change.

Vague indeed. Nothing is really confirmed. However, if  1 level or a couple is supposed to make any difference in terms of combating enemies, then you'll need more than just an extra ability with gear aside. I think it is highly likely it is indeed the case of auto allocation and if it is indeed the case then just like the 8 slot limit its a ridiculous decision IMO.

 

Easy or hard isn't what I am arguing, the choices were there, plain and simple. Whether you were good or bad was entirely up to the player, such as life. Granted, it did need a respec in origins, something only added later on in Awakening, in case people screwed up, or wanted to be something else.

 

I really don't recall that as one of DAI's selling points. And just cause it is advertised as such, doesn't make it true. So far, it isn't in terms  gameplay anyways.  Most of these customization choices are purely cosmetic. Skyhold, being such a grand example. soo much choices that dont affect anything except eye candy, despite the one thing your looking at most, which is your character's clothes, you can't change. All the resources, i feel could have been better off in changes that make more a difference in gameplay.

 

The last statement is where you are wrong. People who care the most and are more upset are ones who have a reason to be. It has nothing to do with fundamentalist, even though its usually those that are the building blocks. How else is this supposed to be the same series? Really, it hardly resembles a dragon age game anymore.  Fixing what isn't broken and changing things that didn't need it, and leaving things in that needed changing are what people are arguing for and about.

[Salaya]

In reality, the people who are most upset about this change are people who are fundamentalists and dislike change.

 

And here we go; with this, you have wasted all your post. It seems you have access to some objective reality where fundamentalists are not welcome. 

 

Ah, how sad. At least in this part of reality, the subjective one, the old, good fundamentalist part of reality, things are simpler and cozy. Without customization. We only distribute 3 points whenever we level up and are unable to shape attributes with gear. Oh, wait...

[Looper128]

Mages were not underpowered in DA2 they were the most broken characters in the game on nightmare. Most nightmare parties consist of Anders, Merril and Varric. 

 

 

If Hawke is a mage also the game becomes a joke because of force mage and cross classing with those three on nightmare. 

 

Ok? Please tell me the builds and I will try it out.