3034 réponses à ce sujet

[KoorahUK]

No, it worked like this in DAO/DA2 :

You level up.
Now you go and set whetever you want manually. (for example - set your attributes, skills and Leave abilities untouched)
Hit "Auto level up" button. All that hasn't been set in previous step, will be auto allocated now (following our example - abilities).

As you can see, you can choose what to set by yourself and what to "auto level up".

Ah fair enough. Never used it myself so was operating under a misconception.

[VilhoDog13]

It's interesting this whole conversation is going on. It's not like anything will change within the month DA:I is released.

But if you feel like venting, ok. (No sarcasm. Just interesting to see this conversation pan out).

[xkg]

It's interesting this whole conversation is going on. It's not like anything will change within the month DA:I is released.

But if you feel like venting, ok. (No sarcasm. Just interesting to see this conversation pan out).

 

Not now, but maybe with a patch or with a first story-DLC/Expansion.

 

The point is not to vent or argue, but to make the devs aware that there are people who cares about this feature.

Just a simple toggle option like "Manual attributes allocation" (in options or on character sheet) would fix that completely.

[AmazingPaladin]

There wasn't much room for stat customization in the earlier games anyways outside of talent/gear checks. Rogues took cunning/dex, mages took magic, and warriors took strength. Willpower and constituion could go into anyone but generally the only one with high con was your tank. Until stats affect every class in some way I don't really care if they're gear/talent based.

[Elhanan]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I simply don't share it.
 
I don't see "RPG"s as requiring stat allocation.  See Skyrim for example.  It doesn't have an attribute system at all (unless you class health, magic and stamina I guess).  So long as you are able to customise your character (to a fair degree), then I'm happy.

As I understand, Stamina is much like a mix of STR & CON, Magika is MGC & WILL, and Health is CUN & DEX; not exactly, but what used to represent Attributes from older TES games. And apparently, fans were also quite upset about changes made to Skyrim.

[Elhanan]

There wasn't much room for stat customization in the earlier games anyways outside of talent/gear checks. Rogues took cunning/dex, mages took magic, and warriors took strength. Willpower and constituion could go into anyone but generally the only one with high con was your tank. Until stats affect every class in some way I don't really care if they're gear/talent based.

Thing was, there used to be customized Classes; know this because I saw some and made others.

There were Rogues and Mages utilizing 2H weaponry, and while I never did this myself, the Players reported enjoyable results. And there were those that dabbled with CUN & DEX based Warriors; same sort of reports.

I made higher STR Rogues of 38+ to wear Heavy or Massive armors, with WILL of 30, CUN of 22, and the remaining in DEX. This meant less DEX and CUN than the typical builds, but it offered armor and weapon options, and was quite viable. Also made Mages with higher DEX and CON, and Warriors with higher DEX and WILL. In these cases, many contested against the typical two Attribute designs, but they offered versatility, and were able to thrive.

Now I get that many would not choose to play with these, but it is hard for me to believe all of them also desire the option for others to create such variants to be eliminated. I prefer choice, options, and creativity in designs.

[Keroko]

And I'll keep repeating the dance: You can still do that, only this time with gear.

In DA:O, you could assign stats on levelup manually, but the stats on your gear you were stuck with.

In DA:I, you can somewhat assign stats on levelup through skills, and the stats on your gear are fully customizable.

The only change is how you do the assigning, but in essence nothing in terms of stat customization has changed.

[Paul E Dangerously]

And I'll keep repeating the dance: You can still do that, only this time with gear.

In DA:O, you could assign stats on levelup manually, but the stats on your gear you were stuck with.

In DA:I, you can somewhat assign stats on levelup through skills, and the stats on your gear are fully customizable.

The only change is how you do the assigning, but in essence nothing in terms of stat customization has changed.

 

Are they? I wouldn't be surprised to find say, Warrior-only enchantments for Strength or Constitution. Especially since weapon and armor restrictions are still in place full-force.

[Salaya]

The  only change is how you do the assigning, but in essence nothing in terms of stat customization has changed.

 

In the essence, Devil May Cry is like Dragon Age! At the end, you kill your enemies to progress through the game. The only change is how you do the killing!

 

I don't mind people who say "hey, it's a different game, let's accept the changes". They are right. But trying to defend this change as if nothing happened, as if the way of leveling up has not been modified to be simpler in some degree... well, I think it's funny. 

[xkg]

And I'll keep repeating the dance: 

 

Let me, too:

 

Come, take my Mercedes away from me and give me Skoda. I should be as happy as before - I can drive it wherever I want. huh ?

No. I hate Skoda. I want Mercedes. I had it before and I don't see any sensible reason why I can't now.

 

I am going to say that again - taking away something from someone and giving him alternative is not a valid option. That someone may not like the alternative.

 

 

TL;DR; I don't care about leveling up through skills and gear but I do like messing with my character stats directly. 

[azarhal]

DAO allowed for STR Rogues, DEX Mages, and Cunning Warriors. Now with pre-sets, these are likely not supported. No reason to increase an Attribute that does not benefit the class, except for RP.

DA2 restricted weapons and armors, but still allowed for a Player's choice of Attributes. While not as effective as DAO, one could still choose.

* Mages might disagree.

 

And where does DAI stop you from doing the same? The answer is nowhere. The method changed, that's it. You are going to have stats increase in value of +3 via passives and even larger bonus from gear allowing you to customize your stats distribution the way you want.

 

You, the player, select the passives that comes with stats bonuses.

You, the player, decide what items you are going to wear and can customize them to your liking.

 

Most of the attribute increase come from items and they removed stat requirements on talents and gears. There is even less reasons to stick to the class-stats in DAI because the class building system is not reliant on it. The new system is gamey has hell, but that's it.

 

Are they? I wouldn't be surprised to find say, Warrior-only enchantments for Strength or Constitution. Especially since weapon and armor restrictions are still in place full-force.

 

 

Enchantments have no restrictions in any of the crafting screen and demo I've seen. Items have class restriction by types. Here is a crafted medium armor (rogue restricted) with Strength and Constitution bonus on it (with a bit of Cunning). 

 

Also, the passive bonus aren't just "class-stats". Mage Spirit tree has a +3 constitution passive bonus. Rogue and Warrior have a few passives with +willpower too.

[Elhanan]

And I'll keep repeating the dance: You can still do that, only this time with gear.

In DA:O, you could assign stats on levelup manually, but the stats on your gear you were stuck with.

In DA:I, you can somewhat assign stats on levelup through skills, and the stats on your gear are fully customizable.

The only change is how you do the assigning, but in essence nothing in terms of stat customization has changed.

And as stated earlier, placing greater customization on gear will not be of help for those Attributes, Skills, Talents, weapons and armors that are no longer supported due to the greater restrictions. No need to create a higher STR Rogue if one cannot utilize items, gear, or abilities with them.

It ain't the same at all.

[Paul E Dangerously]

And where does DAI stop you from doing the same? The answer is nowhere. The method changed, that's it. You are going to have stats increase in value of +3 via passives and even larger bonus from gear allowing you to customize your stats distribution the way you want.

 

You, the player, select the passives that comes with stats bonuses.

You, the player, decide what items you are going to wear and can customize them to your liking.

 

Most of the attribute increase come from items and they removed stat requirements on talents and gears. There is even less reasons to stick to the class-stats in DAI because the class building system is not reliant on it. The new system is gamey has hell, but that's it.

 

 

 

Enchantments have no restrictions in any of the crafting screen and demo I've seen. Items have class restriction by types. Here is a crafted medium armor (rogue restricted) with Strength and Constitution bonus on it (with a bit of Cunning). 

 

Also, the passive bonus aren't just "class-stats". Mage Spirit tree has a +3 constitution passive bonus. Rogue and Warrior have a few passives with +willpower too.

 

My problem with this is that relying on the trees may mean it's a one-off bonus, and means I may be forced to put points into a tree I don't want just to get stat alterations that should be mine by right. Especially when it comes to Con, which governs health.

[Keroko]

Are they? I wouldn't be surprised to find say, Warrior-only enchantments for Strength or Constitution. Especially since weapon and armor restrictions are still in place full-force.

If they are, then you have a point. Until we know they are though, that's a rather baseless point of critique.

In the latest stream, there seemed to be no limitations in what kind of stats could be assigned to a greatsword.

In the essence, Devil May Cry is like Dragon Age! At the end, you kill your enemies to progress through the game. The only change is how you do the killing!

I don't mind people who say "hey, it's a different game, let's accept the changes". They are right. But trying to defend this change as if nothing happened, as if the way of leveling up has not been modified to be simpler in some degree... well, I think it's funny.

Given that the amount of options available in crafting have given stat allocations more options than ever before, I wonder how this is simplifying matters.

And as stated earlier, placing greater customization on gear will not be of help for those Attributes, Skills, Talents, weapons and armors that are no longer supported due to the greater restrictions. No need to create a higher STR Rogue if one cannot utilize items, gear, or abilities with them.

It ain't the same at all.

You have a point that weapon limitations are indeed taking away diversion. But the stats themselves can still be assigned at will. Did the warrior with high cunning only do so to equip daggers? Or the high dex one solely for that bow? Or were there others reasons people put their points in different attributes?

Let me, too:

Come, take my Mercedes away from me and give me Skoda. I should be as happy as before - I can drive it wherever I want. huh ?
No. I hate Skoda. I want Mercedes. I had it before and I don't see any sensible reason why I can't now.

I am going to say that again - taking away something from someone and giving him alternative is not a valid option. That someone may not like the alternative.

TL;DR; I don't care about leveling up through skills and gear but I do like messing with my character stats directly.

Well, can't argue opinion I guess. I'm more commenting on those that claim the change is only taking away and giving nothing in return.

[Medhia_Nox]

This argument is silly and totally false.

 

The very thing that made sub-optimal builds strong in things like NWN was gear.  Because - let's be realistic.  In D&D you get a +1 every 4 lvls.  Go ahead and try to play ANY RPG with "just stats" and you're going to die.  So this complaint that it shouldn't be tied to gear and gear isn't the character is a load of crap.    

 

I absolutely do not want Bioware to waste time on sub-optimal builds in a game that isn't about a group of adventurers.  

[xkg]

This argument is silly and totally false.

 

The very thing that made sub-optimal builds strong in things like NWN was gear.  Because - let's be realistic.  In D&D you get a +1 every 4 lvls.  Go ahead and try to play ANY RPG with "just stats" and you're going to die.  So this complaint that it shouldn't be tied to gear and gear isn't the character is a load of crap.    

 

I absolutely do not want Bioware to waste time on sub-optimal builds in a game that isn't about a group of adventurers.  

 

Hah complete nonsense. In d&d you can distribute starting attributes anyway you like.

And gear ? I can build Monk, and with no armor and bare handed beat the crap out of armored and armed, badly built warrior.

Do you want to take a bet ?

[Medhia_Nox]

@xkg:  LOL You picked ONE class that doesn't rely heavily on gear.  You go ahead and play him at 20th with none and let me know how it works out for you.  And if you actually play tabletop games you KNOW that you picked it solely to support your argument (which has diminishing returns after level 5 or so).

 

If you played Dragon Age: Origins with "Longsword" and "Plate Mail" you'd have a hell of a time too.  And sure, you'd survive cause you can change difficulty and reload (unlike tabletop) - but any magical gear makes your character superior. 

 

This game is so much more than some glorified character builder... I have a million RPGs that are just character number crunchers ... this game is about an Organization.  If you don't like that - then it might not be for you.

 

I hope the next Dragon Age doesn't even HAVE stats.

[Paul E Dangerously]

@xkg:  LOL You picked ONE class that doesn't rely heavily on gear.  You go ahead and play him at 20th with none and let me know how it works out for you.  And if you actually play tabletop games you KNOW that you picked it solely to support your argument (which has diminishing returns after level 5 or so).

 

If you played Dragon Age: Origins with "Longsword" and "Plate Mail" you'd have a hell of a time too.  And sure, you'd survive cause you can change difficulty and reload (unlike tabletop) - but any magical gear makes your character superior. 

 

This game is so much more than some character builder... I have a million RPGs that are just character number crunchers ... this game is about an Organization.  If you don't like that - then it might not be for you.

 

..you don't know how the Monk works, do you? All depends on the edition and the build, granted, but they can be pretty damned effective.

[Elhanan]

...

You have a point that weapon limitations are indeed taking away diversion. But the stats themselves can still be assigned at will. Did the warrior with high cunning only do so to equip daggers? Or the high dex one solely for that bow? Or were there others reasons people put their points in different attributes?...

I placed higher DEX on Warriors including Alistair to utilize a longbow; prefer the versatility to also kill at range. Higher STR for Rogues was for weapons and armor; hated Grabs and Overwhelms, and armor aided in prevention. Higher DEX with Warriors and Mages also helped against getting hit, and higher CON was used for my single Blood Mage.

Others are the ones that utilized 2H Rogues and Mages, as well as high CUN Warriors. As these builds do not interest me, I do not recall their motivations.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Star Fury:  Hey, believe what you want - you're the one that isn't getting your super important feature.  I'm the one who can adapt to whatever RPG game rules I encounter. 

[Muspade]

When comparing DnD to a game, make sure to forget imagination is infinite and a game is finite.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Muspade:  I'm not sure if that's directed at me... but I don't need points for my imagination.  I could play a game without stats. 

 

I don't believe this is the "imagination" crowd - this is the number crunching crowd.  

 

Which is why I can imagine a game much bigger than:  "Hero with some numbers" - and realize that DA:I is an RPG about the leader of an organization... and his "stats" are going to be the least important thing about him/her.

[Elhanan]

This argument is silly and totally false.
 
The very thing that made sub-optimal builds strong in things like NWN was gear.  Because - let's be realistic.  In D&D you get a +1 every 4 lvls.  Go ahead and try to play ANY RPG with "just stats" and you're going to die.  So this complaint that it shouldn't be tied to gear and gear isn't the character is a load of crap.    
 
I absolutely do not want Bioware to waste time on sub-optimal builds in a game that isn't about a group of adventurers.

Perhaps someone should remind everyone that NWN was based on the 3rd edition of the rules; prior versions did not have stat increases as I recall, and one was more reliant on magical gear. That said, a Ranger is quite effective w/o a weapon; fists work well with given abilities.

And after playing DAO for several hundred hours and sessions, I finally gave solo Nightmare runs a try. While I prefer Bioware Companions and dialogue, this remained an enjoyable experience. Not what it was designed for, but with the lesser restrictions, it was viable.

[Keroko]

Hah complete nonsense. In d&d you can distribute starting attributes anyway you like.
And gear ? I can build Monk, and with no armor and bare handed beat the crap out of armored and armed, badly built warrior.
Do you want to take a bet ?

Actually, no. Assuming we're talking 3.5, by the rulebook you roll dice and the only choice you get is allocating which result gets assigned to which attribute.

Point buy was a homerule, the D&D equivalent of a mod. Though it was implemented in 4th edition.

Perhaps someone should remind everyone that NWN was based on the 3rd edition of the rules; prior versions did not have stat increases as I recall, and one was more reliant on magical gear. That said, a Ranger is quite effective w/o a weapon; fists work well with given abilities.

A lot of the real meaty boosts in D&D come from the feats, too. Feats that give plus bonuses to attack and damage rolls, feats that let you hit multiple targets, feats that let you attack earlier, the list goes on and on.
 

I placed higher DEX on Warriors including Alistair to utilize a longbow; prefer the versatility to also kill at range. Higher STR for Rogues was for weapons and armor; hated Grabs and Overwhelms, and armor aided in prevention. Higher DEX with Warriors and Mages also helped against getting hit, and higher CON was used for my single Blood Mage.

Others are the ones that utilized 2H Rogues and Mages, as well as high CUN Warriors. As these builds do not interest me, I do not recall their motivations.

It seems to me then that your problem is let with attribute allocation and more the weapon limitations. Because aside from the class restrictions on weapons, your later reasons are still perfectly doable in the new system.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Keroko:  He was probably talking Red Box... where Elf, Dwarf and Halfing are Classes. 

 

You know... REAL roleplaying.  

 

===

 

Missing the pt. allocation - totally cool.  It's a bummer it can't be in there (totally forgetting all the new stuff added to the game). 

 

But claiming somehow it's undermining the game... or less of an RPG... or you can't play your character (totally your problem whoever you are) - or whatever.  Is preposterous.