31 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

What exactly are people talking about when they say that a game is just a "Power Fantasy"?

 

Why is this a bad thing if it's bad at all?

 

Would Dragon Age: Inquisition be worst if it had strong elements of the Power Fantasy?

 

Just kind of confused and annoyed at the insistence that every story and game has to have the same tone as Game of Thrones or the Witcher or else it's a juvenile game that appeals to the delusions of losers who can't accept reality through the Power Fantasy.

 

Could someone help me out here?

[In Exile]

The Witcher is absolutely a power fantasy. What I think people really mean is that they sometimes don't want the whole game to go the player's way, or all of their decisions to work out. But it's impossible to have an RPG and not have it be a power fantasy. 

[frylock23]

I guess it has to do with people who think there shouldn't be a happy ending for anyone because if there is it somehow spoils their fun. I guess they feel like they don't want to make the kinds of decisions that would lead to the less than optimal endings they claim to want unless everyone else is getting those endings too.

 

I think there should be a full range of possible endings from almost impossibly happy to the world explodes, and you should be able to play for the ending you want. If I want the happy ending, it's there. If I want something less happy, it's there, too. All I have to do is play that story.

 

But some people want to win for losing or something and seem offended when others get upset because they are forced to play that way now too.

[raging_monkey]

A power fantasy is a game where you basically god or make arbitrary decisions on a whim.(somewhat standard rp exp)

The issue is not its bad but allows fans more "darker' aspects of their personality to be safely exorcised and ideally understood. To some this creates the current bsn others its just a tuesday.

The arguement that Dragon age isnt mature is pure opinion. GOT deals with x issues(never seen it so i wont critize or praise) and the witcher deals with its mature themes( poverty the mistreatment of other, blah blah.). These are mature in their respective mediums. Dragon age is mature due to its reasonable setting actual address of social issues.

Why fans like to war with eachother idk nor truly care long as its civil. But to make an assumption on somebody's ability to cope with reality is a tenous attempt at best.

Remember this the bsn a place of maddness, fun,and occassionally hostilies. Best not take offence or it will contimue the cycle.

[Br3admax]

The Witcher is absolutely a power fantasy. What I think people really mean is that they sometimes don't want the whole game to go the player's way, or all of their decisions to work out. But it's impossible to have an RPG and not have it be a power fantasy. 

Geralt gets his ass handed to him on many of occassions and very few of his direct decisions matter. How is that a power fantasy? 

 

The only power fantasy made by BioWare in a while that really comes to mind is Mass Effect, honestly. In Dragon Age your decisions don't really matter because the story isn't about the character, where as Mass Effect clearly was. 

[In Exile]

Geralt gets his ass handed to him on many of occassions and very few of his direct decisions matter. How is that a power fantasy? 

 

Geralt is a superhuman. In-setting, his power, strength, durability and endurance all go far, far beyond what the average solider can achieve. He's also what amounts to a sex symbol, despite his otherwise average looks. 

 

A power fantasy isn't about victory versus defeat, it's about empowering the protagonist. 

 

Games of Thrones isn't a power fantasy because (a) characters don't have mystical abilities that set them apart from regular humans for the most part and ( those who do have some magical power have are either (i) Bran, who's a cripple or (ii) non-POV characters.

[Daerog]

In DA:I you are the Inquisitor. You form an international organization that can influence nations, you have a unique power, and you are taking on some evil metaphysical threat. How is DA:I not a power fantasy? Even if you lose, you did a bunch of powerful things that no normal person could have done.

 

Any video game that gives the player special powers/abilities, or makes them the hero of some grand adventure, it is a power fantasy. It is a fantasy that gives the imaginer/player/actor greater power over their environment or whatever. This is basically 99% (1% probably being indie games people never hear about) of fantasy rpgs.

[Br3admax]

Geralt is a superhuman. In-setting, his power, strength, durability and endurance all go far, far beyond what the average solider can achieve. 

 

Not power fantasy. This is just the average cookie cutter protagonist. Considering the way Geralt usually loses, none of those things make him impervious, as well as the fact that are plenty of people like him, or their once were. 

He's also what amounts to a sex symbol, despite his otherwise average looks. 

So do a lot of guys. Still not seeing the power fantasy. 

 

A power fantasy isn't about victory versus defeat, it's about empowering the protagonist. 

It's about empowering the player by living through the protagonist. About being able to do whatever you want whenever you want. About feeling very important, where as normally you are not(at least you don't perceive you are). Geralt can't really do any of these things. He follows and kills things for a living. The embodiment of a mercenary. Nothing more. 

 

As to the rest, having powers doesn't make the setting "power fantastic," especially when Geralt has rudimentary abilities compared to any actual expert of magic, nothing of which he actually does is difficult for anyone to understand. The signs are scientific and are in no way tied to his mutations. 

[Killdren88]

I have a God Complex in real life, so games with power fantasies are my bread and butter. Love Spore. Fill a planet full of life, help the lesser creatures reach sentience, and when they bore me wipe the planet off the face of the galaxy.

[slimgrin]

The Witcher is absolutely a power fantasy. What I think people really mean is that they sometimes don't want the whole game to go the player's way, or all of their decisions to work out. But it's impossible to have an RPG and not have it be a power fantasy. 

The Witcher is the complete opposite of a power fantasy and that's one of its strengths. Geralt is an outcast, ridiculed, ignored and gets thrashed on a fairly regular basis. Bioware specializes in empowering the player, making the PC relevant, almost always right, always in control and a badass. It's one of the things that's made me critical of their approach, though granted its far more prevalent in Mass Effect than Dragon Age.

 

Edit- I should clarify. Parts of Witcher are power fantasy, but it's undermined by other narrative techniques that bring the player down to earth, so to speak. Reading back in the thread I see I'm just echoing Br3admax.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hardly witcher don't have power of fantasy if it didn't protagonist would be dead long before i finished game if game was realistic geralt sometimes get his a** kicked but mostly he does that and well in such cases he will miraculously avoid death. Pretty much this is standard for video game but if you look on that i doubt that peoples would like truly realistic game.

[Jerkules17]

Power fantasy? The Elder Scrolls series to be honest with oblivion and skyrim(,and any future TES game). Leader of all guilds,and champion of every deadra even the ones who hate each other. I doesn't make sense. Then again I always saw TES as a fantasy gta game lacking in any true rpg elements...story wise that is. 

[Han Shot First]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and stick up for Mass Effect for a moment. While I mostly agree with Mass Effect often being a power fantasy, its worth pointing out that the series originally didn't end that way. I didn't like the original endings at all..but they were about as far removed from 'power fantasy' as you could get. Shepard defeats the Reapers, but fails to save galactic civilization. In fact in order to defeat the Reapers, Shepard has to go 'scorched earth' and leave the galactic civilization that he was trying to save and that the player had become attached to over the course of three games and several years, in ruins. For thousands of years. The series originally ended with a very bitter pyrrhic victory.

[Daerog]

 

It's about empowering the player by living through the protagonist. About being able to do whatever you want whenever you want. About feeling very important, where as normally you are not(at least you don't perceive you are). Geralt can't really do any of these things. He follows and kills things for a living. The embodiment of a mercenary. Nothing more. 

 

As to the rest, having powers doesn't make the setting "power fantastic," especially when Geralt has rudimentary abilities compared to any actual expert of magic, nothing of which he actually does is difficult for anyone to understand. The signs are scientific and are in no way tied to his mutations. 

 

Geralt is a Witcher. A super mercenary that can take on monsters. That is empowering the player, that is above normal, that is a power fantasy. It isn't a power fantasy on the far end of the spectrum where you are playing a mix between sims and diablo, but Geralt is no way an average, normal person.

 

If you were just reading about him, I can see the argument, but since the player (who is probably a normal person who isn't a mercenary that fights monsters... probably are some players who are, but not all) is being him, the video game is a power fantasy.

 

You don't need super powers to have it be a power fantasy, you just have to give someone more power and some sort of dominance in a setting. As Geralt can take on multiple monsters and survive while the player in real life can't, it is a power fantasy.

 

http://tvtropes.org/...in/PowerFantasy  <---- just to give some context to others wanting to know what a power fantasy is... and it even says pretty much all if not most modern video games that involves a protagonist is a power fantasy.

[SardaukarElite]

What exactly are people talking about when they say that a game is just a "Power Fantasy"?

 

That will depend a lot on who you ask.

 

For me the term implies that a game is about empowering the player character so that they a free from responsibilites, restraints and risks. The player doesn't have to worry about powerful enemies because they know that with persistance they can all be defeated. The player doesn't have to worry about their boss taking away their badge and gun because they know they are always right.

 

That's problematic because constraints are interesting. Fighting hunters in Halo is awesome because they will kill you in a moment's lapse of concentration. XCOM's campaign is very interesting because you can lose. However, I think it's a sliding scale. Most games are power fantasies at some level, it's a question of how much and what problems arise from it.

 

----

 

Geralt is interesting in that he defies everything that makes his world so grimdark.

 

The world is full of horrible monsters, yet he kills monsters for a living. That pretty much makes him the apex predator right at the start.

He's a supernaturally good swordsman, making him fearless of all the human thugs running around robbing  people and raping beautiful peaseant girls.

His mercenary like job makes him independent of the horribly corrput feudal governments oppressing everyone around him.

He's immune to disease, so he doesn't have to worry about the constant sickness getting about the squalour ridden areas, also free to have sex with anyone.

He has magic powers, because life wasn't easy enough?

 

I like the character and think they manage to tell an interesting story about him, but there is a lot of power fantasy there.

 

(edit) However it's worth noting that he can quite spectacularly screw up through plot choices, at least in the first game.

[Jorji Costava]

This is probably covering some ground I've already covered in these boards, but I'll go ahead and repeat some of this stuff anyways:

Games (and especially RPGs) lend themselves to power fantasy-type stories by virtue of their mechanics. Games in general are usually structured as challenge-reward loops; you overcome some challenge (defeating monsters, completing a quest, etc.) and get rewarded. In RPGs, the rewards are usually things like XP, levelling up, etc., which leads to new abilities, new spells, new skills, etc. In other words, the reward for completing the game's challenges is the acquisition of more and more power. RPG stories have to work around these mechanics somehow, and this naturally transitions into stories about exceptional individuals with unique abilities that few others possess, or with an unusual amount of influence on the world and its politics.

While I'd love to see more AAA games that break out of these trends, at the end of the day, I'm perfectly willing to accept that DAI will not be one of those games. It's just not going to be The Wire: The RPG, and you know what? That's totally okay.

RE: The Witcher

I'd argue that power fantasy is something that comes in degrees; it's not an all-or-nothing affair. And it seems pretty clear to me that The Witcher does have a fair amount of power fantasy elements. Geralt's status as a ladies' man, for instance, doesn't seem to be a way for the game to make some kind of statement about sexual politics or some such; it's a concession to presumed player desires. After all, it's way cooler to play as a ladykiller than as some sexually frustrated, middle-aged balding man. Same with Geralt's powers and his status as a professional monster slayer. In the context of the game world, these things are looked down on, but for us, the players, they can't help but be coded as 'badass' or otherwise desirable traits to have.

RE: ME

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an ME ending discussion, so I'll only say this and leave the topic alone: I'd argue that the ending is actually a continuation of the power fantasy of the game. A quasi-divine creature reveals the mysteries of the galaxy to the Shepard, who is judged worthy of making a decision that will reshape the galaxy permanently. References to "The Shepard" at the very end make it especially hard for me to believe that the game is somehow trying to bring the player back down to earth.

 

EDIT: Fixed spelling.

[Icefalcon]

Just about any RPG and especially fantasy RPG's can be classed as power fantasies. If you can rise from obscurity and lead the nation/army/world/fleet then it's a power fantasy.

If you can wipe out a group of eight guys with one flick of your wrist to aim a well placed fireball or walk A-Team style through 80000 rounds without a scratch and you can put a dragons head on your wall, it's a power fantasy.

 

There is no problem with this though, this is the very core of FRPG's you imagine a different world where you can change things, big or small, for yourself or for others and you have the ability to do so. To paraphrase the late Aaron Allston who wrote role playing games for a living and knew his stuff

 

The adventure is all about the hero it's the job of the game creator to make the hero feel like they can make a difference and not that the NPC's could actually get along much better without them.

[In Exile]

Not power fantasy. This is just the average cookie cutter protagonist. Considering the way Geralt usually loses, none of those things make him impervious, as well as the fact that are plenty of people like him, or their once were. 

So do a lot of guys. Still not seeing the power fantasy. 

It's about empowering the player by living through the protagonist. About being able to do whatever you want whenever you want. About feeling very important, where as normally you are not(at least you don't perceive you are). Geralt can't really do any of these things. He follows and kills things for a living. The embodiment of a mercenary. Nothing more. 

 

As to the rest, having powers doesn't make the setting "power fantastic," especially when Geralt has rudimentary abilities compared to any actual expert of magic, nothing of which he actually does is difficult for anyone to understand. The signs are scientific and are in no way tied to his mutations. 

 

As other people have already responded to these points, I'll be brief: 

 

1. The "average cookie cutter protagonist" is a power fantasy. Games are a power fantasy as a rule. 

2. Geralt basically never loses - he just gets cheated. There are circumstances behind his control that deny some sort of final, satisfying victory... but Geralt beats down or otherwise crushes every single challenge in his path. There are only very rare moments of temporary defeat, but even those antagonists are overcome.

3. Geralt's story is all about feeling important, and it does exactly that - the player is the badass outcast with the cool scars, the fancy coloured hair, the unique eyes, and the superpowers. The fact that he's an outcast in setting is irrelevant. Wolverine is basically an outcast, but we all recognize and identify with him as "awesome". 

4. A mercenary - who is so indestructible and unique as Geralt - is again a power fantasy. 

 

The problem with your argument is that your counter-examples are still things that are power fantasies. 

 

Edit:

The TVTropes link has a great example of something meant to deconstruct the trope - SpecOps. That's a game that actively aims at undercutting the precise feelings of power, worth and control that come from playing an unrepentant killing machine in the typical power fantasy vein. 

 

The crucial thing to realize about the "power fantasy" is that it's not mean to be empowering for the character, it's meant to be empowering for the player. Geralt can't walk away from the prejudice and just be a regular person, with friends and family. But we can. We don't feel a cut - we just slice and dice monsters. This distinction is very important. 

[Shahadem]

I think a power fantasy is anything that allows a player to live out a fantastic life (ie any life that is different and better than the one they are currently living).

 

So having an experience like Schwarzenegger had in Total Recall would be living out a power fantasy simply because it allowed him to live out the fanstasy of lving a life greater than the life he had.

 

Power fantasy doesn't relate to the strength or looks of the character, it relates to how the player views the experience.

[Dusksworn]

Hrm...

 

Well, I guess this all depends on what is meant by a "power fantasy".

 

Personally, I feel it should definitely be a power fantasy.

 

The thing is, how is something a true power fantasy if all of your opponents come across as weak, incompetent, and generally useless? Mowing your lawn isn't a good power fantasy, no matter how many of your obstacles you're cutting down with ease.

 

A good power fantasy should make your enemies feel powerful enough that you feel powerful in fighting against them.

[nightcobra]

Any theme, subject, game type or style isn't inherently superior or inferior to another. It's its execution that dictates if they do well or poorly.

Sadly lots of people confuse the execution as an inherent part of whatever is being shown, hence why they start to think that certain subjects can Never do well/poorly due to them never having seen such an instance, or rather, having seen it but only in one way over many types of media and then thinking it's the only way to present those subjects/themes/etc.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Power fantasy appeals to the common man and woman in the simplest psychological way.

It is allowing them to feel powerful and important in contrast to their real life in which people have pretty much zero power and influence on the world around them. It is a basic reward feeling as mundane as sex, food, drink, sleep etc. It is an even stronger pull for people with narcissism or delusions of grandeur. People can also live out sexual and violent fantasies. The latter I would think is actually benevolent, as it works as a form of catharsis. 

"The simplest is often the best" comes to mind. Power fantasy as you call it (first time I hear of it but I understand the concept and definition), pleases basic psychological needs.

I would say power fantasy / RPGs is more prone to pull in intellectual people due to the complexity in dialogue, morals and philosophy. On the flip side you have for example the first-person-shooter "kid" drawn to the same psychological need to feel powerful but in a way more direct and simplified manner. I say "kid" here not to bash children but because more simple-minded people (read: Dumber) may not realize the power-trip of dominating someone through conversation and dialogue instead of pure brutality. Because they do not understand it. (hence "kid" used to represent immaturity not a certain age, as a crude example consider a 40 year old redneck with zero education playing CoD). 

The problem with power fantasy 

 

The problem with power fantasy is that once you are self-aware of it, it can stop giving pleasure with the lack of challenge and opposition. I will take myself as an example. If I do an encounter and is left with a feeling that "Anyone other than me could have done that as easily" it removes the psychological reward completely. Therefore in order to meet the need of "Feeling unique, powerful and special" I play Nightmare mode only so that I can feel better than other people. 

The reward of power fantasy is best applied to someone who is not really aware of it. Take Jon here vs me:

Jon: I TOTALLY WRECKED THAT BOSS WITH MY METEOR ATTACK DAMN IM GOOD AT THIS GAME =))) (Ignorant stance)
Me: I killed that boss way too easily, meaning the encounter can be done by anyone. Meteor was powerful and flashy but gave me no pleasure as the lack of challenge makes me feel mediocre.

 

This problem applies to dialogue aswell. If the options are too easy to read, the outcome gives no reward feeling. One of the few games that made dialogue good and challenging in this regard is Deus Ex:



Conclusion: 

For the intellectual or experienced gamer who is self aware over the psychological rewards games are trying to provide, the reward of power fantasy (or other genres) has severe diminished returns. Because the psychological rewards are mostly aimed at those ignorant over them, the difficulty (higher difficulty, higher feeling of reward) is normally not high enough to appease those "at the top" of this spectrum. 

For those interested in this stuff I believe this might be a good read:

 

 http://en.wikipedia....sy_(psychology)

 

 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

As for the actual question from the OP. 

Power fantasy is good for players that are not too self-aware of it. Because they are easily stimulated - they gain the most from this.

 

Power fantasy is bad for players that are aware of the psychology behind the reward system, because they normally have higher standards to allow themselves to be stimulated.


Edit: 

Also very apparent on this very forum!

 

I want the possibility of companions being able to die from bad decisions. 
I want enemies to try and retake your forts.
I want combat to be really hard.

But most people...

"I dont want my companions to die! I will reload!"
"I dont want enemies to retake my forts or even try!"
"Hope the combat isnt too hard! OMG NO HEALING"

What we see here is a clear separation of people that want the game to be as challenging as possible to get that "deserved power feeling" and the people that "I just want to feel powerful and crush everything".



 

[SmilesJA]

Power fantasy appeals to the common man and woman in the simplest psychological way.

It is allowing them to feel powerful and important in contrast to their real life in which people have pretty much zero power and influence on the world around them. It is a basic reward feeling as mundane as sex, food, drink, sleep etc. It is an even stronger pull for people with narcissism or delusions of grandeur. People can also live out sexual and violent fantasies. The latter I would think is actually benevolent, as it works as a form of catharsis. 

"The simplest is often the best" comes to mind. Power fantasy as you call it (first time I hear of it but I understand the concept and definition), pleases basic psychological needs.

I would say power fantasy / RPGs is more prone to pull in intellectual people due to the complexity in dialogue, morals and philosophy. On the flip side you have for example the first-person-shooter "kid" drawn to the same psychological need to feel powerful but in a way more direct and simplified manner. I say "kid" here not to bash children but because more simple-minded people (read: Dumber) may not realize the power-trip of dominating someone through conversation and dialogue instead of pure brutality. Because they do not understand it. (hence "kid" used to represent immaturity not a certain age, as a crude example consider a 40 year old redneck with zero education playing CoD). 
 

 

 

I've seen a lot of dumb people get pulled into RPG's and used them as simplified power fantasies.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I've seen a lot of dumb people get pulled into RPG's and used them as simplified power fantasies.

RPGs differ alot in complexity. This also in various ways like combat, dialogue etc separated from eachother as factors.

 

I was not trying to prove A or B, just a tendency and a correlation.