572 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

We need something for that ya, so we don't have stoic characters doing derp expressions of shock or Quizzys looking sad when someone they don't about dies

 

I'm not saying that stoic derp expressions are the way to go - just that even someone who cares about Wynne might not be so expressive. 

[Doominike]

I didn't say stoic derp expressions, I said a stoic *doing* derp expressions. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Isn't that a kind of doublethink? You're not deliberately doing it, but you also know that your technique almost inevitably leads to it happening. "Almost" there because on a given playthrough it is possible that your interpretation of the PC's lines will 100% correspond to what the written NPC is actually responding to.

Since I have no problem at all with multiverse theory (it is largely how I view the world), it doesn't matter to me whether Alistair is the same person game to game. But I also don't understand why anyone would expect him to be.

At the start of each game, I don't know who Alistair is. As I play, I learn about Alistair. So does my character. We might even learn different things about him.

But never is there any cause to believe that this Alistair is the same person he was in my last playthrough. Why would such a thing even cross a player's mind? There's literally no evidence of it (and there cannot be, given that the two universes don't interact).

[Gothfather]

Hawke doesn't even say anything, to my knowledge, in the scene I am referencing. He just kneels at his siblings side and looks sad, almost on the verge of tears.

 

A non-cinematic protag doesn't have that option. And a large part of moving to a voiced protag was so Bioware could use them more cinematically, showing them interacting with other characters more dynamically.

 

A noble goal, but one which robs the player of control.

 

 

Tough.

 

You are asking an artist to change their vision of the art they are creating. NOT going to happen. Don't like their artistic vision? DONT BUY IT.

 

Bioware has CLEARLY stated many times this is their ARTISTIC vision, they WANT to create the cinematic experience. You don't want it? Tough stop asking the artist to make something in direct contrast to what they want. its like asking Picaso to stop what he's working on now and work on his earlier work because you don't like his new direction. What do you think Picaso is going to say to you? if you think its, "SURE I'll get right on that." You're sadly mistaken

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cinematics are different from VO, and that's the point of Bioware's new reaction wheel: recognizing that your reaction to the scene is wholly separate from dialogue.

I'm eager to see how that plays out.

[Keroko]

I would say it is not inherently tied to a voiced protagonist, but it certainly is tied to a cinematic protagonist. 

 

For instance, in your character list (thank you for posting that, I didn't see it until this morning), you stated that one of your pro-Templar Hawke's expressed regret on the outside in terms of his dead sister, but silently was happy about it on the inside. Is this because that, no matter what, Hawke expresses sorrow for the deaths of his family? I'd say that is one instance (of which I'm sure others could be formed) where the cinematic demonstration of emotion, actions or attitude could easily interfere with a character you'd designed. What if your character had no intention of hiding or playing false the feeling that his apostate sister had died? Or who actually found, in the last moments, he did care for his sister, but wanted to remain stone-faced and emotional lest others think he was expressing sympathy? 

 

I get that the game's writing gave you lemons and you made lemonade - that's something you have to do with a silent protagonist as well. But with the silent/non-cinematic protagonist, you don't (ideally) say or do anything without the player's input or, the least, imagination. Voiced/cinematic protags do. And every time they do (see some of the complaints about ME3 auto-dialogue, for instance), it runs the risk of it breaking the character the player envisioned.

 

Again though, that's the writing talking, not the voice acting. The problem doesn't go away in a non-voiced protagonist, as all Hawke's dialog options would still be forms of regret.

 

 

That's true, it has fairly little to do with the voice. I was simply pointing out there that there is a very wide range of available character interpretations available in DA:O. That much would be true regardless of the voice.

I do feel that the voice has some impact, though, in that some lines you pick will be voiced differently than how you may have imagined them. The voice acting makes the intent behind the line clear through subtext -- that's part of acting -- and in so doing in removes the player's ability to choose a different intent their character might've had. You can take just about any line and come up with a very widely different number of ways to say it, which will actually mean very different things. All of those are theoretically available if you have no voice acting for the line, but if you have voice acting, the voice actor must choose one interpretation of the line and go with it.

You can choose whatever you want with regards to story whether or not the character is voiced, but when it comes down to dialogue, the available choices shrink. If you have unvoiced options, then you're free to decide how your character is interacting with the dwarves, mages, or templars to a much greater extent than you can if the dialogue is voiced.

 

But if you accept that the voice of the player character impacts the intent, you also accept that the voiced reactions of the NPC's to the player character do so. Sure, you might say "my Warden was just being sarcastic and the NPC didn't pick up on it" but I can make similar excuses for my Hawke.

[Remmirath]

But if you accept that the voice of the player character impacts the intent, you also accept that the voiced reactions of the NPC's to the player character do so. Sure, you might say "my Warden was just being sarcastic and the NPC didn't pick up on it" but I can make similar excuses for my Hawke.

No, the voiced reaction of the NPCs only show their intent. I can easily say that the NPC didn't pick up on the PC's tone; it's entirely believable, and often occurs in actual conversations.

I think that the case of a person attempting to say something in a particular way, but not at all managing to, is much less likely (if most people are angry, they'll sound angry; if they're upset, they'll sound upset, and so forth). I suppose you could decide that any given thing is being said that way for a sarcastic or mocking reason, but that's the only different way you could possibly interpret the voiced lines without trying to ignore the subtext entirely.

I'll admit I'm probably more sensitive to the whole subtext/intent issue due to doing so much acting and directing than many people are, but for me, hearing that shows one very definite interpretation and there is really no wiggle room (except possibly deciding that it's being said in that manner for a mocking effect). Hearing the NPC's subtext only shows the intent behind their words; it doesn't explicitly say anything about what your character did, while the voice acting does. There are, in fact, several different ways that your character could've said something that the NPCs could entirely reasonably react to in the same way, but that would say noticably different things about their personality.

[AlanC9]

Since I have no problem at all with multiverse theory (it is largely how I view the world), it doesn't matter to me whether Alistair is the same person game to game. But I also don't understand why anyone would expect him to be.

You truly don't understand? It's pretty simple, really. The way I see it, the writers wrote one Alistair. Why would I expect him to be different from one game to the next?

[Sylvius the Mad]

You truly don't understand? It's pretty simple, really. The way I see it, the writers wrote one Alistair. Why would I expect him to be different from one game to the next?

I'm not saying you should expect him to be different. I'm saying you shouldn't expect him not to be.

[Amfortas]

You are asking an artist to change their vision of the art they are creating. NOT going to happen. Don't like their artistic vision? DONT BUY IT.

 

Bioware has CLEARLY stated many times this is their ARTISTIC vision, they WANT to create the cinematic experience. You don't want it? Tough stop asking the artist to make something in direct contrast to what they want. its like asking Picaso to stop what he's working on now and work on his earlier work because you don't like his new direction. What do you think Picaso is going to say to you? if you think its, "SURE I'll get right on that." You're sadly mistaken

 

I can respect that. But I wonder how detached is their artistic vision from their commercial vision

[AlanC9]

I doubt anyone, even Bio themselves, could answer that. But wanting to make games more cinematic is hardly a new thing.

[In Exile]

I doubt anyone, even Bio themselves, could answer that. But wanting to make games more cinematic is hardly a new thing.

 

It is, in fact, one of the first things they did when they started with BG1. There was lots of railroading and telling your character who (s)he was in that game. Your Bio specifically set out your behaviour/actions/relationships at Candlekeep, you were told exactly what you were doing/thinking in the Bhaalspawn dreams based on your reputation, etc. 

[AlanC9]

I'm not saying you should expect him to be different. I'm saying you shouldn't expect him not to be.

Why shouldn't I expect him to be the same? Why would changing my PC change anything else in the game-world?

[Sylvius the Mad]

It is, in fact, one of the first things they did when they started with BG1. There was lots of railroading and telling your character who (s)he was in that game. Your Bio specifically set out your behaviour/actions/relationships at Candlekeep, you were told exactly what you were doing/thinking in the Bhaalspawn dreams based on your reputation, etc. 

That's an indefensible interpretation of BG.  How could those dreams possibly be telling the player about the PC's personality?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why shouldn't I expect him to be the same? Why would changing my PC change anything else in the game-world?

How is it the rest of the world is exactly the same except for the PC?

 

You shouldn't expect things without evidence for those things.  There isn't any evidence that the Alistair in one playthrough is the same as the Alistair in the next.  And given that his reactions don't change when faced with different PC behaviour, I would argue that there is evidence that he is not the same.

[karushna5]

I prefer voiced protagonists

[In Exile]

That's an indefensible interpretation of BG.  How could those dreams possibly be telling the player about the PC's personality?

 

They made statements about your emotional state - feelings, thoughts, etc. They also described your actions, and ascribed motives to them. 

[Elite Midget]

No way, I love the Voice Acting.

 

I have much more fun listening to Witty Hawke, Male and Female, than watching my Warden stare blankly after I pick a choice.

 

It's why I can't play any other MMO after SWTOR because they all feel so empty and lacking of life due to no VAing for the character.

[Gothfather]

I can respect that. But I wonder how detached is their artistic vision from their commercial vision

Simply because games are a product doesn't mean they are not view as art by the creaters.

 

Artista are not locked into their first idea of what they envision, art is evolves as you create it. Games are no different. bioware has clearely said they have an artistic vision for their games that is tied to the cinematic experience. They couldn't have been more clear of their position. You can't find "wiggle" room simply because its a game so millions of copies are created. To bioware this is like movie, in that millions may watch it but they are invested into this art piece as though it is a single piece not a million diffused pieces.

 

Most of this thread boils down to, "I want X, bioware should give me X because I want it." And nothing people say has any impact because at the root there is a self entitled kernal that puts the "I" above everyone else even when its more than clear that the position "I" is taking is contrary to what the developers want and what most fans want. Thats a level of hubris i am not comfortable ignoring.

[aTigerslunch]

Spoiler

Because they've always appeared in the games as a package deal.

The paraphrasing is probably what bothers me the most, since it's what makes me unable to make an informed dialogue choice, and is what causes out of character comments. The voice bothers me the second most, because it cuts down dramatically on replayability, because it imposes somebody else's idea of how my character would be delivering the lines, and because the voice often contrasts with the kind of character I want to play.

I care far less about the wheel format than either of those two; it's simply associated with them, and thus far, has not been separate from them. I find the list to be more elegant, and I prefer the way it meshes with the game (in Dragon Age; it felt less out of place in Mass Effect), but on its own it would only be a less aesthetic choice to me.
 

Do you read the lines aloud if there is no voice?
 

All of that could easily happen in real life, especially if you have trouble reading people. I'm quite terrible at reading people, really; I've just come to the conclusion that I'm not going to be able to figure out how they will react to what I say, and (unless my character is supposed to be very good at it), I don't find it at all odd that they wouldn't be able to figure that out either. I have certainly had people get rather bent out of shape about comments I thought were completely innocuous. It's not unrealistic.

As for the question about the Leliana conversation, that depends on your character. It's up to you. If the character were voiced, that would no longer be under your control, which is a problem I have with it. One of my Wardens was humouring her, one was trying to understand her better, two were making fun of her, one actually agreed, and three never even had that conversation with her for various reasons.

It would be odd if half of the party had only text. It's not odd if the one character you have created and are actually completely playing is handled differently, because that character is different, because they're your character, not one of the NPCs in the party. Yes, if a random companion had only text, it would be strange -- but you wouldn't be controlling that character except in combat, so it's a very different thing.

I wouldn't like the colour coding. It would be easier to ignore than the voice, so it would be preferable to the voice for me, but I wouldn't like it.
 

In my experience, people rarely react the way that I expect them to if I am trying to predict how they react, so I don't usually bother to try.

I could see adding more indicators if the character has a certain level of persuasion/diplomacy/whatever social skill, but I think for most people, it is really not that easy to tell what effects your words are going to have.

 

Nope, in my head I can do so, but I still prefer voiced.

 

 

 

 

Anyways, why we continuing with this thread?  Surprised it hasnt died, sorry, but DA4 will also be voiced, just FYI.

[Sylvius the Mad]

They made statements about your emotional state - feelings, thoughts, etc. They also described your actions, and ascribed motives to them.

In the dream.

Why would we think that tells us anything about the PC's waking persona?

[Deviija]

I would be happier with silent protagonists.  

[simpatikool]

_{I think Bioware should start voicing the Nugs.}

[JCFR]

It started in Mass Effect.And now every BW game they voicing the hero.

But in old games like DAO and others we had only text and it was great.

I would like to place a request to return to that.Please.

 

Okaaayy... i think i get your intention. I guess, you're talking about the oldschool-dialogue-system with those detailed answer-sentence-choice.

Well, i have to admit, that i like this ancient system and yeah, the dialogues of DA2 suffered from the integreation of this ME-style... but that's a problem of the system in general and has - in my opinion - nothing to do with voice-overs.

I liked the fact, that Hawk talked... felt more authentic than in DAO, where your hero just silently stared  to the other and wiggled his head. Seemed just plain stupid to me.

So as long as the dialogues are well written and the voice actors do a good job, i'm fine.

 

Just stop this dialogue-wheel-thing with it's "upper right - paragon, lower right - renegade, middle  right - neutral" structure (made for firstgraders and not for adults) and give the player a better hint about what your character is about to say.

[Tootles FTW]

 

I love voiced protags, especially if the rest of the cast are fully voiced.  If it were a Neverwinter Nights situation where voice work was minimal (I believe your companions only say the first line of each conversation, if memory serves) the absence of a protag voice isn't so apparent...but in DAO it was completely jarring and made me feel like I was directing a plank of wood around the battlefield.  I felt little to no attachment to my Warden outside of how the other characters responded to her/it.  Hawke, however, I am invested in.