572 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Who's rewriting NPC reactions?  I'm certainly not.  I'm just not willing to draw unsubstantiated conclusions about the causes of those reactions.

I...didn't attribute that to you?
 

Granted.  I don't see that as relevant, however, given that I could happily roleplay in the keyword based dialogue systems from 30 years ago.  If NAME, JOB, and HEAL are enough for me to roleplay, then I don't need to see the faces or hear the voices.

That's nice. It doesn't have very much to do with what I said, or with the person to whom I was talking, but it's nice. Good for you.
 

No they are not.  If they were, you could point to them.  You could show them to people.
 
But you can't do that.  Therefore, they're not demonstrably there.

 
Which is also not a standard of "demonstrably" you can apply to a voiceover. So what's your complaint?

And, again, why are you arguing with what I said in response to somebody else as though my post was directed at you?
 

I don't listen to myself speak in the real world, so having to do it in the game (to find out what I've said) is entirely unlike how I think speech should work.
 
I should know what I'm going to say before I say it, not after.  I should know why I'm saying it in advance, not try to figure it out in retrospect.  That's my problem with the voice+paraphrase so far: I can't tell what my character is going to say or why until it's too late.  As such, I'm not the one decide what she'll say.  I can't have her avoid saying things I don't want her to say.  I can't tell whether she's going to be nice the people.  I can't tell whether she's going to be angry.
 
And those should always be my choice.  Those choices should never be made for me.  I know I'll have to choose from a finite list, but I should get to choose.
 
And DA2 didn't let me choose.  ME2 didn't let me choose.
 
Really, choosing from a finite list is largely how real world conversations work for me, as well.  I come up with something to say, and then I come up with something else to say, and then maybe something else, and when I find one I like I go with it.  Or I might retreat to one I'd previously passed.  I never just say teh first thing that pops into my mind - that would be crazy.  So I find choosing from a finite list very natural.
 
But I should get to choose.  Guessing isn't choosing.

I fail to see how this criticism of voiced protagonist + paraphrased line prompts doesn't also apply to unvoiced protagonist + any kind of line prompts.

But then again, you apply an interesting idiosyncratic standard of proof to game experience, and it's one with which I am fundamentally in disagreement; I understand that there is literally no possibility either of convincing you otherwise or even of conducting a discussion on bases that are mutually agreed upon. I have read your posts before, after all. That's why I didn't start a discussion with you in the first place. It can't and won't lead anywhere.

JWvonGoethe commented that he could not understand how anybody could argue a certain point of view about personal gaming experience. I provided a foundational argument in favor of a very similar point of view to the one he was describing. That's it. I didn't sign up for a quote war pitting your preferences against mine.

[RINNZ]

Nah, man. 

[HTTP 404]

OP can always mute and put subtitles on.  win win for everyone.

[Doominike]

I don't mind voiced per se, if the voices don't suck, but I liked my Wardens way better than Hawke

[KBomb]

Conversations seem a lot more organic to me when everyone is speaking.

That said, both voiced and non-voiced paraphrasing should include a hint at the inflection behind the words. I have had moments in both where the paraphrasing made a line seem sweet or charming, but could have mixed results. The way I read it versus how it was intended could be vastly different.

If they can get the paraphrasing right, I'm good either way.

If I could add a wink, or some way to emote my pc's intent with delivery, I would be a happy girl indeed.

The organic nature of it is exactly why I prefer a voiced protagonist. Since lip reading is an enormous part of my communication skills, it's something I really pay attention to. So, seeing a lack of facial expression and a "silent" mouth really feels unnatural. 

[WizzoMaFizzo]

I don't mind voiced per se, if the voices don't suck, but I liked my Wardens way better than Hawke

Hawke was kind of a putz, to be fair

[Panda]

Silent hero is okay for me but I prefer voiced one. It gives more life to my character.

[l7986]

Would prefer voiced characters if they actually put emotion into their lines. Couldn't stand listening to Shepard's voice staying the same no matter what.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I...didn't attribute that to you?

I didn't think you had.

 

Though I may have lost sight of that later in the post.  Sorry about that.

 

 

Which is also not a standard of "demonstrably" you can apply to a voiceover. So what's your complaint?

I'm saying that there's no basis for saying these features objectively exist.

 

Which you may not have done.  But others have, and your remarks could be taken in that way, so I offered a pre-emptive counter-point.  In a public forum like this one, my remarks are often intended for the general audience.

 

I fail to see how this criticism of voiced protagonist + paraphrased line prompts doesn't also apply to unvoiced protagonist + any kind of line prompts.

Both the voiced protagonist and the paraphrase reduce the amount of information available to the player before the line is selected relative to the amount of information that is provided afterward, when compared to the silent protagonist and full text, respectively.  The paraphrase does this by reducing the amount of information provided before the choice, and the voiced protagonist does this by increasing the amount of information provided after the choice.

 

 

But then again, you apply an interesting idiosyncratic standard of proof to game experience, and it's one with which I am fundamentally in disagreement; I understand that there is literally no possibility either of convincing you otherwise or even of conducting a discussion on bases that are mutually agreed upon. I have read your posts before, after all. That's why I didn't start a discussion with you in the first place. It can't and won't lead anywhere.

I'm often trying to figure out why people disagree with me, as my standard of evidence is a carefully reasoned one.  I play this way because I think it's more fun.  I enjoy it more because it seems to me to be a more authentic roleplaying experience.

 

Now people might disagree with me about whether it's more fun - that's fine, fun is subjective - and even disagree about how roleplaying should work.  Again, not a problem.  But disagreements about what information is or isn't available in the game perplex me.

 

Oh, and I wouldn't have responded this time at all, except you asked direct questions.

[Knight_47K]

It started in Mass Effect.And now every BW game they voicing the hero.
But in old games like DAO and others we had only text and it was great.
I would like to place a request to return to that.Please.

Do you remember the speech warden gave to the army before they stormed the Denerim City?

You can't, because there was no such speech. It was either Anora (the banshee) or Alistair (he was OK actually).

But the fact is that I am the protagonist, I need to say my piece. I don't want **** to happen to me. I need to be the **** that happens to everyone else.

So, yeah no more mute PCs. Voice protagonists FTW.

[Tevinter Rose]

I really didn't mind having no voice in games like FO3, FNV. The dialogue was rich enough that it wasn't needed. I think a non voice works for some games but not necessarily for others, I think voiced works better for DA. 

[Han Shot First]

I hope we never again see a return to a protagonist who isn't fully voiced. 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

OP can always mute and put subtitles on.  win win for everyone.

 

Well, win-win for everyone except for OP. Because they probably want to hear all the other audio in the game too, y'know...

[Auztin]

I think non-voiced work better in FPS where there is no controlled storyline like Fallout or Elder Scrolls.Games with cinematic & third person views I think are way better with Voiced Protagonists.There is also a defined tone of voice even in non-voiced protagonists.Fallout 3 for example.You can say "Nice hat,Calamity Jane"to the sheriff in Megaton.In your head you could mean it a sarcastic harmless joke but he takes it seriously like it was very insulting & personal jab against him.There is a defined tone because how they react when you select it.
Cinematic Games-Voiced
FPS-Non-Voiced.
My opinion.

[Doominike]

Didn't they say or show the Wheels had an option to preview what you're actually gonna say or do ? 

[DameGrace]

Didn't they say or show the Wheels had an option to preview what you're actually gonna say or do ? 

 

I think they'd decided not to implement this option because of some issues. But that would have been really handy. 

[Doominike]

That's what I thought it would do, give the actual phrase

[Vox Draco]

Most people nowadays like watching movies more than roleplaying. We will just have to deal with it OP.

I don't really get it...maybe because I saw too many movies...but have you ever, while or after watching a movie, let your fantasy run wild, imagined yourself into teh movie, as the hero, or alongside them? If not, pity, I do that since childhood, and for me it works without the movie having to be a silent movie...

 

What I want to say: I do not see a voiced protagonist keep anyone from roleplaying that char. And let's face it: What DO we roleplay in games? Or better how? Well, we roleplay chars in set ways written by others. CRPGS cannot be compared to Pen & Paper, where you could easily play whatever you like, simply because your other players can always adapt. A CRPG is indeed more like a movie, a book, a story, and you experience it as you play. Some games give you more freedom than others, but they always have limitations. And ultimately the Warden, even if unvoiced and more "roleplay-y" than Hawke, a creation of others, not the player. I would love to say to Duncan: "Shove your Warden-bullshiat up your b-hole, I'll stay here to defend my mother and father, help me or p...off!..." but that's not how the story is written...

 

Also, unvoiced protagonists can often do more harm to immersion than good (afaiak at least) ... ever played Half Life 2? It's so weird when everyone is talking to Gordon, staring at him, but like some retard he never gives a response? And Skyrim? Great game, but for many parts it feels shallow, because you never see your char react to anything. Of course you can make it up in your mind, and I do...but still, if you a currently using an audio-visual medium

 the silence simply comes across weird. I bet that more players would have beaten Skyrim's mainstory more then once if we had our hero argue with Alduin, confront him, or see and hear our hero mourn fallen companions...

 

That got longer than I wanted, sorry whoever was so bored to read this Of course it's ultimately a thing of preference, but I don't like it if people think:

voiced = less intelligent players like it that don't know how to roleplay or use their fantasy, unvoiced = for the REAL elite roleplayers that can make up epic stories even when only playing pacman...  

[ahtf]

I really gotten used to the voiced protagnists, i have a much harder time immersing myself in games that have mute protaganists these days. Which ís probably why i never succeed in finishing fallout 3 or skyrim etc.

The mass effect games i instead played through 3-5 times each.

 

But like alot of other things, it is a mather of taste i guess.

 

My guess would be that more players have a easier time with a voiced protaganists. Since I think most players prefer making the choices for a character and forming him then "beeing" that character.

[NightTrauma]

I come from old school RPG's and I am 100% down with getting rid of the silent protagonist in cinematic RPG's like BioWare does these days. I disagree with the idea that a voice somehow limits your role-playing. My Shepard is quite a different character than yours I imagine. 

 

Line of dialogue:

MC: "Well... That went great."  - That could be read as annoyed or sarcastic. If you have no voice you can read it either way, but the reaction of the other character will determine the actual tone.

 

Sarcastic tone response:

Character A: "Could have been worse. We might have turned into jelly. Then character B might have eaten us."

Character B: "I do love jelly..."

 

Annoyed tone response:

CA: "And that's my fault?! If you hadn't brought us here we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place!"

CB: "Would you two shut up? Arguing isn't going to get us out of here."

 

So, the only difference is if we have a voiced protagonist they actually speak the lines and possibly give an actual expression while doing so. Making for a more cinematic experience. You may have read the text and the tone wasn't what you thought if the game doesn't indicate intent like DA2 and Mass Effect's renegade/paragon options.

 

If we have a silent protagonist you might "role-play" they said it as a joke but the character just didn't get it if you get the annoyed response or they did if they quip right back. But being able to handwave it doesn't really add much to my role-playing to experience. The choices, class, background, and appearance offer more role-playing than a voice I read in my head. An actual voice just adds to the overall character for me. Especially in DA2 where Hawke's general personality and tone reflect the dialogue you pick the most.

[The_Other_M]

Uh no.

 

A voiced protagonist will always be far better than a mute one.

[Clark]

I used to feel that way. But while both approaches have their own limitations, at the end of the day I prefer the limitations of voiced protags over the limitations of unvoiced protags. I prefer my characters to be more emotive through facial expressions and tone, which increases the overall cinematic quality. You can't really do that with mute, expressionless protags.

 

Neither approach is without certain drawbacks, but I definitely prefer the direction Bioware has gone in.