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Mass Effect in Retrospect Part 2


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Legion of 1337

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*This is likely to be the part that is most irrelevant to you, actually, since I'm fairly sure everything I'll say has been said before.

 

Our Epic Story:

 

Read a review from a professional gaming site and the story of Mass Effect will most often be cited as its biggest strength, its defining feature, the reason it is so great, and the reason we should ignore all the other little problems the game has. Sorry to say, there’s too many problems with it to justify that.

 

The one caveat to that statement is that ME1 has a completely fine story. There’s nothing wrong with it – so long as it is viewed in isolation. Almost everything is wrapped up at the end – except for a hint that Shepard must continue to find a way to stop the eventual Reaper invasion. This is odd, because presumably if the Reapers are out in the Void and the Citadel Relay isn’t active, they’d have to physically fly there under their own power, which would take forever. Also, defeating them would require them not being the Robot Space Chthulus they proclaim to be. I don’t deny that defeating them would ultimately be a suitable ending, only that the enemy remains sufficiently powerful and threatening such that only a truly heroic and unlikely effort could stop them – none of that “conventional victory” crap some of the haters of ME3’s ending wish they could achieve. However, a continual problem with how this is set up is that the Reapers should presumably take far longer to reach the Milky Way than they do – unless their engines are mini mass relays or something, but if that’s the case the game needs to explain how they travel so quickly and if that’s the case, why they even needed Sovereign in the first place.

 

So what should ME2 be? Well, here’s the thing: if it’s the middle act, then this should be the part where our heroes hatch their plan, so to speak. This is where we prepare for the Reaper invasion – in ME3, we actually fight them. But does this happen? NOPE.

ME2 is frequently cited as the best game of the series. Ironically, its main storyline is not only barebones and kind of contrived, but the entire game is effectively a sidequest that does nothing but assure Shepard cannot prepare to fight the Reapers in the time between ME2 and ME3, thus putting the Galaxy in a royally fucked position. It’s honestly not the kind of thing you base the entirety of the game around, especially if you’re not also going to fulfill the Second-Act Requirements of a three-act story. Things that were in ME3 like Leviathan, the Crucible, Javik etc should all be in the second act as exposition of the story and preparation for Act 3. This doesn’t happen. In fact, things that would be important to the main story like the Derilect Reaper and the weapon that destroyed it are casually mentioned and dealt with no further investigation as if Shepard has forgotten the Reapers are coming. Instead most of the game is basically in the format of an episodic TV series, with a bunch of only very loosely connected missions each with their own subplot and relevant characters and only a few episodes dealing with the actual overarching plot which is rather simple. I don’t object to this being a way to make a Mass Effect game, but I do object to it in this case because of the way it was handled. See, the subplots all have to do with finding characters and putting them on your team, and then going on a mission of personal importance to each character. These missions are good in their own right (well, most of them) and they do a lot for building these characters the game wants you to care about, but virtually none of these missions have anything to do with the main plot - which as I already said is an largely irrelevant sidequest – and as they say, the clock is ticking. I get that the player would need to do some exploration but spending all this time recruiting soldiers for a sidequest of little importance instead of finding ways to combat Reapers is the height of folly and it makes no logical sense for Shepard, who vowed in ME1 to find a way to stop the Reapers, to drop that idea and run around finding people and doing errands for them.

 

ME2 also introduces two concepts to us that are supposed to have significance in ME3. One does, and one does not. The one that does is the revelation that the Reapers are actually Cyborgs, with organic parts manufactured from the literal flesh of an organic species. The science about how this is done is never explained – I could buy it if it was explained adequately but it isn’t, and thus comes off as fantastical and also, contradictory. ME1 established the Reapers were machines, their minds being hyper-advanced AIs. ME2 blatantly contradicts what its direct predecessor said and turns them into cyborgs. There is no excuse for this discrepancy, it is simply a case that Bioware changed its mind about what it wanted the Reapers to be AFTER they had already created ME1, indicating that they DID NOT plan out this trilogy beforehand and simply made it up as they went along; the pointless nature of the story of ME2 is further proof of this. This is a fundamental problem with the way the series was created and I’m not sure exactly why it wasn’t planned out beforehand. It’s possible Bioware didn’t know if they would be making a sequel but that doesn’t excuse contradicting your own narrative. If it’s already set in stone you have to live with it or you will have to come up with something contrived to explain the discrepancy – and ME2 doesn’t even attempt that beyond having Harbinger allude to it with his dialogue. But that doesn’t explain Sovereign’s dialogue then. See what happens when you don’t plan ahead?

 

The other concept alluded to is that strange things are occurring as a result of Dark Energy influence. Now any physicist would tell you the effects don’t make any sense but I don’t think Bioware’s writers ever consulted a scientist on anything they put in their games. As we now know this was supposed to be the hook for the original purpose of the Reapers: to build an armada of Reapers, each imbued with the very nature of the species they are created from (being cyborgs now, apparently), and to combine their intellect and ability to find a way to literally bend the universe to their will and stop Dark Energy from causing its heat death. Apparently biotics speed up the process of heat death although it doesn’t really make sense how they cause Universal Dark energy to increase – that’s not a well explained point. Regardless, the final dilemma for Shepard at the end of ME3 was supposed to be either Shepard destroys the Reapers and risks the universe being doomed to heat death, or let the Reapers carry out their plan, dooming you and everyone you know but perhaps ultimately saving the universe. Since these hypothetical events would happen so far in the future and the Reapers are known to trick people, it is entirely up to the player whether they believe the Reapers are telling the truth.

 

This idea was ditched. Why I have no idea. But what it was replaced with is a fuckup of epic proportions that caused the most hate and vitriol I’ve ever seen about a video game story. ME3’s ending, following a relatively solid plotline awkwardly interspersed with Shepard making up for lost preparation time, ME2 having wasted the opportunity, is bad. It just is. I recall that after the Extended Cut I used to defend it on this site but I no longer do. It’s very poorly told, utilizes two Deorum Ex Machinae at once, one of which is also a MacGuffin (which is even worse since it’s a background MacGuffin that doesn’t take an active part in most of the story), results in a jarring tonal shift that makes the entire sequence feel wrong, eliminates all sense of character traits from Shepard causing him to act like a mindless drone, and finally executes the endings via an extremely video-gamey, unbelievable mechanic. The endings themselves don’t make any sense because the mechanics behind them aren’t explained.

 

To be honest ME3 was told the way ME2 should have been – a bunch of necessary sidequests integral to the main plot that both tie into it but also have interesting self-contained subplots. This is the good part. It has three major flaws: Cerberus, the ending, which I’ll explain in more detail later, and the Crucible, which I’ll explain now. The Crucible is the Mega Weapon of Doom that will kill all the Reapers. It was fairly obvious to anyone that such a MacGUffin would be needed since the Reapers can’t be defeated normally, but the way it is introduced and functions in the story is badly done. The game tries to get us to believe that the Crucible is being built even though no one actually understands the instructions exactly or how it works. This is frankly impossible given the tech involved – understanding would be required to build a device that can manipulate the Mass Relay network. Granted, no one knows how those work either, but that’s the function of the 2nd Act – to find out. So we know how to build the weapon of doom, which we should have found earlier. Oh wait, Act 2 was a bunch of dicking around, so now we have to shoehorn its discovery not just into a convenient timeframe (right before the Reapers attack) but also in a convenient and again, unbelievable location: Mars. There is no ****** way that you went to the Mars archives and found all the info you need to get to the Charon relay and build FTL drives yet never noticed the blueprints for the giant weapon of doom or records of the Reapers. That’s ludicrous. Furthermore, why would these plans be on Mars anyway? It was a surveillance post not a construction site or a research lab. The people working there would have had nothing to do with the whole thing, so why would they have blueprints for it?

 

The Crucible’s actual functionality is more a problem with the ending so I’ll get to that in another section. Cerberus is another problem. I never mentioned the problems with forcing the player to join Cerberus in ME2 before because, well it’s kind of obvious. Also I forgot, and it didn’t fit with what I was talking about (see? I’m already getting sidetracked and ****. I knew this would turn into a rambling mess). It’s extremely out of character, whether Paragon or Renegade, to simply go along with TIM because he says so. It’s also illogical that TIM would bring back to life someone who would probably kill him given the chance, and it’s furthermore illogical for Shepard to even be alive anyway given the contrived forced-reset of the game’s universe allowed by his death at the beginning of the game. The player cannot directly oppose Cerberus in ME2 even though by all rights Shepard should be hostile and trying to hunt them down. I can understand letting the player CHOOSE to work with TIM, but forcing them to do so doesn’t create a morally grey situation, it just feels hamfisted and forced.

 

It gets worse in ME3 because TIM somehow becomes convinced he should be trying to control the Reapers rather than destroy them. However he has nothing to prove he can do this so where the idea came from is anyone’s guess. You could argue he’d already been indoctrinated before the game even starts, but that would imply the Reapers can’t figure out an intelligent way of utilizing his resources for their own gain, because Cerberus is employed in utterly ridiculous ways. We don’t actually know at what point TIM becomes indoctrinated – if it’s from the very beginning, then you could try to pass off Cerberus’ actions as simply the Reapers using them as more cannon fodder, though they still do it in immensely stupid ways. If it’s not until later, say Thessia, then TIM turns into an utter illogical moron that is completely out of character for the first 2/3rds of the game, since the way he deploys his forces is guaranteed to make him lose and also doesn’t help his cause. The Citadel Coup to this day does not make any sense – there is no reason given or inferred as to why Cerberus attempted it nor how they planned to win. Nor does it make any sense at all why Udina helped them – and Bioware themselves don’t even seem to care. They pass around a half-assed ‘maybe he was indoctrinated’ comment and leave it at that, as if they know they just made a bunch of crap up without thinking it through but were too full of themselves to admit it was a mistake and take it out of the game.

 

The Ending:

 

Finally we have the ending, and there’s some elements of the ending that don’t make sense before you even get to the beam run, such as why the Citadel is there. It’s the stupidest thing you could possibly do. The Citadel can be locked up to prevent anyone from getting in, but if you put it next to planet and hook a teleporter beam up to it, then your enemy can get inside. The Citadel being moved to Earth is simply a contrivance to A) Have a fight on Earth for no reason other than that it’s Earth; and B So you can actually get into it easily. Even then though, why the Reapers don’t shut the teleporter off once the Galactic fleet shows up is up to interpretation – though I’m pretty sure it’s just “We can’t think of another way to do it so even though it makes no sense we’ll let Shepard get to the Citadel this way no matter how stupid the Reapers would have to be to actually allow him to do so”. This is further made dumber by the fact that, conveniently, Harbinger decides to land a ways away from the beam and shoot from afar rather than right in front of the beam, entirely blocking anyone from getting to it. Again, it makes no sense for him to do so, this oversight is simply contrived so as to make it possible for Shepard to actually get there, because otherwise he’d be doomed. Notice how many asspulls are being made here? I’m starting to think they did not at all think this out when they wrote the ending.

 

But wait, there’s more! The Extended Cut tries to make the playerbase feel better by having a cutscene where your friends don’t die and get picked up by the Normandy and flown away so they can live happily ever after and whatnot. This is absolute garbage for a number of reasons, #1 being the idea of anyone surviving Harbinger’s beam – how Shepard does is nothing short of ANOTHER asspull, he should be dead, period. For Shepard to survive he would need to be out of Harbinger’s sightline, which he could easily do, but for “dramatic effect” and due to shitty linear level design, you can’t maneuver so Harbinger can’t see you, you can only run straight at the beam while Harbinger massacres everyone but magically (literally) you don’t get killed. In addition, the Normandy should be shot down while it hovers there, there is no reason at all Harby doesn’t kill it other than blatant, illogical plot armour. The 3rd reason is that it is entirely out of character for any of your friends to run away from the fight, they have already stated they are willing to die and are in it 100% no matter what happens to them. They would NEVER abandon Shepard, EVER. This is simply a contrivance so that the player can feel good about their suqadmates not dying, especially since they are likely to have picked their favourite squadmates for the last mission. You know what? Sometimes, good storytelling requires that people DIE, and in this case, given the thematic structure of the ending, having anyone else but Shepard and Anderson get to the beam would not work; Bioware knows that, which is why your companions don’t come with you, but they are unwilling to kill them. Grow some balls guys, come on.

Why Anderson says he got to the Citadel after you but gets ahead of you makes no sense and I’m not sure why they decided to say that. Saying he got to the beam while Shepard blacked out would be perfectly fine. Anyway, how TIM got there is yet another asspull since the answer basically doesn’t exist, he’s just there. Why he wasn’t dealt with at his actual base, I have no idea. They felt the need to stick him in at the end and have Anderson die a more glorious death by his hand than get unceremoniously blasted by Harby and thus deprive us of that admittedly touching vista scene where he ultimately dies. That scene actually is so good and would have made such a good ending I’m willing to accept TIM’s presence, but only if it was explained, which it isn’t. Also there’s the fact that uh, well, what happens AFTER is…dear god what did they do????

 

All they had to do was cut from the vista view in the control room to the Crucible firing and a destroy-style ending. That’s it. That’s all that had to happen. But they didn’t. Shepard gets lifted up by some magical elevator and is transported to lala land.

I am very aware that Leviathan sets you up to expect the Catalyst’s existence, but the whole Leviathan backstory for the Reapers is dumb anyway. It’s completely illogical, I’m not even sure why I need to explain it: the conclusion of the Leviathans was that they were incapable of stopping their thralls form being wiped out by their own synthetic creations. This makes no sense simply because the Leviathans can use mind control, thus they should be able to A) Stop the creation of these machines; and B Control the machines so they don’t kill the organic thralls. Why they can’t do either is not explained – and of course it can’t be, because it would likely be stupid and thus make the entire explanation look like a contrivance; though, it already is anyway. Their solution to this non-problem was then to make a machine themselves to solve the problem for them, never anticipating that it might perceive them as a problem. Again: how did this not cross their minds? Answer: there is no answer. Not a real one .The Leviathan spouts some nonsense about their perception of the Catalyst as simply a tool but there’s no way they were stupid enough to not realize the intelligence and capability of the thing they created. So that explanation doesn’t make sense.

 

The Catalyst itself is not the problem since it’s simply a classic case of a badly programmed AI with an unintentionally horrific logic loop. But the way it is used at the end is very badly utilized because it doesn’t come off as a mis-programmed AI, it comes off as simply Mr. Exposition. Despite the glaringly obvious contradictions of logic the Catalyst follows, Shepard never points them out because of the Catalyst’s ulterior purpose, one that has nothing to do with the story: a developer mouthpiece. Contradiction of the Catalyst’s flawed logic would cause the player to reject the endings the Catalyst sets up via a painfully gamey “here is option A and this is what it does, here is option B and this is what it does, and here is option C and this is what it does” monologue, and Bioware doesn’t want that. Well, that’s one explanation. The other is that the two geniuses that wrote this ending actually wrote the Catalyst as if they thought its logic made sense, thus giving Shepard no reason to object to what it’s saying. If THAT is the case then I cannot fathom how utterly stupid and/or unaware they must have been in order to actually think the train of thought this character follows makes any sense at all. In either case, Shepard, completely out of character, simply acts as a yes man, like a Fox News anchor: only asking questions the obvious answer to which allows the interviewee to further spout their own opinions and nonsense.

 

Regardless, the sudden change from sentimentality to exposition dump to stupidly-gamey faux-philosophical ending choice is so jarring and out of place it makes the ending seem flat out wrong no matter how you slice it. The ending either needed to have the sentimental scene with Anderson removed, or everything after that scene removed. They cannot both exist in the same ending, the tonal shift causes major mood whiplash.

 

The endings themselves are hamfisted attempts to make some kind of pseudo-philosophical point to the player while failing horribly because the logic behind said points is given by an AI with a psychopathy-inducing logic loop. The game wants you to pick Synthesis, it wants you to be the yes man and just accept what the Catalyst tells you without question and create some kind of hippie communist post-organic paradise. Even though that’s not what you came up here to do and is an entirely immoral decision to make since you are basically forcing it on everyone without their consent, but rather on the advice of your ****** ENEMY. How Synthesis works isn’t explained either – but then again, how the Crucible works isn’t explained period, as mentioned. Control is supposed to be an “Illusive man was right” ending  - why the Catalyst recommends this course of action when it will cause him to be deleted, I have no idea. Why the Destroy ending can’t JUST kill the Reapers? No explanation given. The actual reason is simply for there to be a downside to picking it – remember, Bioware REEEEAAAAALLLY wants you to pick synthesis, so they need to force you to commit genocide in order to get the ending you wanted in the first place in order to dissuade you. Of course, they never counted on the fact that virtually everyone picks Destroy anyway and simply hates Bioware for the forced synthetic genocide rather than hating themselves for choosing that ending. Also note how condescending the colour coding is: Control, where you become sole ruler of the entire galaxy, is somehow “Paragon” blue, as if Paragon Shepard would ever think a space dictator with an armada of genocidal cyborgs was a good idea. Destroy is “Renegade” red – even though killing the bad guy rather than turning into Space Hitler is more suited to Paragon then Renegade Shep. And of course Synthesis is Green, colour coded to imply a new genesis and a happy fresh future. Oh, and it’s in the middle, the ‘true’ path. The other options require you to walk to the side, ruining the physical imagery and symbolism of the environment that you would get if you picked the ‘right’ ending.

 

On top of this, there’s simply no denying that the ideas and any valid points for or against the ideas of Control and Synthesis aren’t brought up until the end. For the entire rest of the series it’s a constant Destroy Destroy Destroy mantra, so the other two endings come out of ****** nowhere and picking them seems like a dice roll or a random “**** it” moment, which is an insane thing to do when deciding the fate of the universe.


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#2
Excella Gionne

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LolEndings...


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#3
von uber

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i quite enjoyed reading that.



#4
themikefest

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I gave you a like since you mentioned that Harbinger landed behind the beam instead of in front of it. 


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#5
Nogroson

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@Legion

I have to say I really agree with a lot of the points you have made in your post. Starting from the fact that the best game storywise is ME1, it's my preferred of the trilogy from story point of view ... and also for some of the characters (well mainly Ashley), also I agree on the fact that ME1 present the Reapers (think of the dialogue with Sovvy on Virmire) quite differently from what they are then depicted in the other 2 games.

 

Fully agree also on your point of view about the story in ME2, I would not say I don't like it, but surely is non functional as Act 2 of the trilogy ... you are just sidetracked in a lot of side mission to get a team for the final Suicide Mission, probably the only mission which could somehow have something to do with the whole stuff of the Reapers invasion .... and still I'm not really convinced why Bioware had to introduce all the Collectors' presence, well apart for changing their explanation of what the Reapers are.

Still ME2 works very well in creating some very good characters, unfortunately many of them poortly treated in ME3.

 

Also agree with most of your points on ME3 story. I like most of the missions and like the sense of urgency and the struggle Shep makes to gain allies and probably time to built the Crucible. Agree on the fact that is quite illogical for the Crucible blueprints being on Mars ... and not being found before.

I also find illogical, once the Crucible blueprints are made known to the Council that asari doesn't speak of their Prothean beacon till the attack on Thessia .... or even, if you think of it of the asari councilour not believing about the Reapers. If they knew about the Catalyst, they should have known about the Reapers.

 

And about the endings too I agree with you. Ihad the same impression Bioware wants you to pick Synthesis. I made it first time I arrived at the end, just because I didn't noticed the two lateral ways to choose Destroy or Control ... I simply continued to go ahead till Shep fell in the green beam .... after that I always choosed Destroy since, as I explained in another post, it's why I have kept fighting for all the three games and what I feel my Shep has gone to the Citadel to do ...

Eliminate the Reapers for ever !!



#6
dreamgazer

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LOL @ Dark Energy. 


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#7
Vazgen

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I'd like to address a few points you make

1) 

 

 

ME1 has a completely fine story. There’s nothing wrong with it – so long as it is viewed in isolation. 

This isn't the case. ME1 story fails to convey the feeling of urgency which is supposed to be the theme. The Race Against Time can be done after you fly around the galaxy for ages, collecting resources and such. Saren knowing about indoctrination and studying it while sitting inside Sovereign, breeding krogan army (the only reason for that is to have the Wrex confrontation), Shepard giving orders to the fleets when Hackett is in command and has more information on the situation, Sovereign playing Mortal Kombat with Shepard instead of blasting Alliance fleet to Oblivion, the whole idea of Cipher and Thorian.

 

2) 

 

 

ME1 established the Reapers were machines, their minds being hyper-advanced AIs. ME2 blatantly contradicts what its direct predecessor said and turns them into cyborgs.

Where is that established? Shepard's words "you're just a machine"? That's the same man/woman who said "I thought asari need other species to reproduce". ME2 has nothing contradicting depiction of the Reapers in ME1.

 

3)

 

 

On top of this, there’s simply no denying that the ideas and any valid points for or against the ideas of Control and Synthesis aren’t brought up until the end. For the entire rest of the series it’s a constant Destroy Destroy Destroy mantra, so the other two endings come out of ****** nowhere and picking them seems like a dice roll or a random “**** it” moment, which is an insane thing to do when deciding the fate of the universe.

Control is pushed through the entire game, it is mentioned in every talk with Illusive Man and Horizon explains it quite extensively. Synthesis is supposed to be the Reapers' ultimate solution and is only possible due to the Crucible, thus it's only mentioned in the end with high EMS (Crucible is not damaged)

 

I won't address Priority: Earth issues you mentioned because they were picked apart so many times there is nothing more to say there. I also don't want to address Dark Energy theory because 1) it was not developed 2) at its current state it's not much different from the endings we have.

 

Bottom line: ME series are about characters in an immersive sci-fi-fantasy setting with a story focused on developing those characters instead of being a standalone masterpiece we wished it to be. Games are about having fun and I had a lot of fun playing the whole trilogy and I continue having fun 2+ years after release of ME3. 


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#8
ImaginaryMatter

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I'd like to address a few points you make

1) 

 

 

This isn't the case. ME1 story fails to convey the feeling of urgency which is supposed to be the theme. The Race Against Time can be done after you fly around the galaxy for ages, collecting resources and such. Saren knowing about indoctrination and studying it while sitting inside Sovereign, breeding krogan army (the only reason for that is to have the Wrex confrontation), Shepard giving orders to the fleets when Hackett is in command and has more information on the situation, Sovereign playing Mortal Kombat with Shepard instead of blasting Alliance fleet to Oblivion, the whole idea of Cipher and Thorian.

 

2) 

 

 

Where is that established? Shepard's words "you're just a machine"? That's the same man/woman who said "I thought asari need other species to reproduce". ME2 has nothing contradicting depiction of the Reapers in ME1.

 

3)

 

 

Control is pushed through the entire game, it is mentioned in every talk with Illusive Man and Horizon explains it quite extensively. Synthesis is supposed to be the Reapers' ultimate solution and is only possible due to the Crucible, thus it's only mentioned in the end with high EMS (Crucible is not damaged)

 

I won't address Priority: Earth issues you mentioned because they were picked apart so many times there is nothing more to say there. I also don't want to address Dark Energy theory because 1) it was not developed 2) at its current state it's not much different from the endings we have.

 

Bottom line: ME series are about characters in an immersive sci-fi-fantasy setting with a story focused on developing those characters instead of being a standalone masterpiece we wished it to be. Games are about having fun and I had a lot of fun playing the whole trilogy and I continue having fun 2+ years after release of ME3. 

 

1) While these are problems, to varying degrees -- almost all being fridge logic, with a majority not really being issues at all. For the most part when legion was criticizing the ME2 and ME3 he was talking about over arching story elements; for example, almost everything involving Cerberus.

 

2) Sovereign expresses nothing but disdain for anything else that isn't a Reaper, especially Organics. It wasn't saying, "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident; which is why we incorporate you into our very essence and make incredibly inefficient design choices." Did Sovereign not know Reapers were made up of slushy mix? Was Sovereign in denial or embarrassed? Was it kept out of the loop? Was it afraid to come out of the space closet? This isn't technically a retcon, so on that front this sort of revelation is valid; but it does undercut the Reapers and knocks them down a peg, instead of building them up (which is the kind thing a second act is supposed to do). This isn't a reveal of some mystery from ME1 or a clever twist; this is simply not bothering with what was previously established and being too lazy to even offer a halfass handwave.

 

3) Control is mentioned but it's far from pushed. It's a solution that no one believes is possible (and the cast of characters constantly think is a dumb idea that could never work) and is backed by the chaotic stupid, short sighted, brain damaged, Indoctrinated, mook captain Illusive Man. In the dialogue prompts, on both sides of the Paragon/Renegade spectrum, Shepard not only argues that it is impossible for TIM but for anyone to Control. Up until the end of the game the entire arc with TIM is almost a parable about the dangers of trying this exact sort of thing. Also, the stuff on Horizon is mechanically different than the actual Control option at the end of the game, it's mostly flavor text about what exactly Cerberus was doing on Sanctuary; the actual way to Control the Reapers ends up being something else entirely.


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#9
Vazgen

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1) I just brought examples corresponding to the points he brought

"I get that the player would need to do some exploration but spending all this time recruiting soldiers for a sidequest of little importance instead of finding ways to combat Reapers is the height of folly and it makes no logical sense for Shepard, who vowed in ME1 to find a way to stop the Reapers, to drop that idea and run around finding people and doing errands for them." - Race Against Time

"The game tries to get us to believe that the Crucible is being built even though no one actually understands the instructions exactly or how it works." - Cipher and Thorian

 

2) Keyword: organic life. Sovereign is not organic, it's a machine with organic material in its core with machine thoughts and actions. They preserve the knowledge and genetic material of the harvested species to add new data to the Catalyst's data banks, allowing it to alter solution.

 

3) TIM claims it's possible, Horizon proves it's possible (squadmates comment on that). Control is not brought up in the last few minutes as Legion claims in his post

 

I'm not saying the games are flawless, they have a lot of plot holes and inconsistencies. I think I mentioned in another thread that I consider Mass Effect 2's storyline the weakest (it's almost nonexistent) and resurrection of Shepard along with the whole anti-Collector mission is just... let's just say I agree with Legion on that part. ME2 indeed needed to be the bridge between ME1 and ME3. The problem is, that renders ME1 pointless. You spend the game trying to stop the Reaper arrival? Good, now work your a** off gathering forces because they will arrive anyway. It would've also rendered ME3 pointless. Reapers arrive? No big deal, Shepard already gathered all we need, we just push this button (shoot the tube) and Reapers are blown to hell. 

I just wanted to address those issues because I feel the author is wrong in their regard. Also, all the issues brought in OP are made to look game-breaking. They certainly weren't for me.



#10
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Leviathans = big stupid cuttlefish.



#11
ImaginaryMatter

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Leviathans = big stupid cuttlefish.

 

I must admit, I really did enjoy that DLC and I still think it's some of the best content in the game (I enjoy it more than Citadel DLC, for example). But as soon as the big thing starts opening it's mouth (blowhole, whatever cuttlefish have) that's when the thing takes a sharp dive.



#12
Legion of 1337

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1) I just brought examples corresponding to the points he brought

"I get that the player would need to do some exploration but spending all this time recruiting soldiers for a sidequest of little importance instead of finding ways to combat Reapers is the height of folly and it makes no logical sense for Shepard, who vowed in ME1 to find a way to stop the Reapers, to drop that idea and run around finding people and doing errands for them." - Race Against Time

"The game tries to get us to believe that the Crucible is being built even though no one actually understands the instructions exactly or how it works." - Cipher and Thorian

 

2) Keyword: organic life. Sovereign is not organic, it's a machine with organic material in its core with machine thoughts and actions. They preserve the knowledge and genetic material of the harvested species to add new data to the Catalyst's data banks, allowing it to alter solution.

 

3) TIM claims it's possible, Horizon proves it's possible (squadmates comment on that). Control is not brought up in the last few minutes as Legion claims in his post

 

I'm not saying the games are flawless, they have a lot of plot holes and inconsistencies. I think I mentioned in another thread that I consider Mass Effect 2's storyline the weakest (it's almost nonexistent) and resurrection of Shepard along with the whole anti-Collector mission is just... let's just say I agree with Legion on that part. ME2 indeed needed to be the bridge between ME1 and ME3. The problem is, that renders ME1 pointless. You spend the game trying to stop the Reaper arrival? Good, now work your a** off gathering forces because they will arrive anyway. It would've also rendered ME3 pointless. Reapers arrive? No big deal, Shepard already gathered all we need, we just push this button (shoot the tube) and Reapers are blown to hell. 

I just wanted to address those issues because I feel the author is wrong in their regard. Also, all the issues brought in OP are made to look game-breaking. They certainly weren't for me.

1. This is a gameplay-story segregation issue in ME1. In ME2, it's an illogical mis-prioritization.

The Cipher and Thorian are nto compariable to the Crucible. The Thorian has actualy been studied, we know how it works. THe only issue is how exactly it came to possess the Cipher - admittedly an open question. The Crucible is literally unexplainable - somehow, even though we dont' know how it works at all, we are able to construct it. This does not make sense. If you don't understand the instructions, if you don't understand the device you're constructing, you can't build it because you don't even know what you're tryign to build.

2.It's a cyborg. As already noted above, Soveriegn's dialogue doesn't make sense if he's not compeltely synthetic.

3.TIM is clearly indictrinated, and also has no proof that he can control the Reapers. All the characters, even up until the final confrontation with TIM (which happens right before the Catalyst encounter where Shepard suddenly stops opposing the idea for no reason), argue as to why Control, even if possible, is a bad idea. The sudden flip-flop change in this makes it seem like a random choice or out of character, because noone, including Shepard, entertained the idea until the Catalyst showed up. At all.



#13
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I must admit, I really did enjoy that DLC and I still think it's some of the best content in the game (I enjoy it more than Citadel DLC, for example). But as soon as the big thing starts opening it's mouth (blowhole, whatever cuttlefish have) that's when the thing takes a sharp dive.

 

Wouldn't you have loved to have had that line? "That's because you're a big stupid cuttlefish!"



#14
angol fear

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Wrong reading about the trilogy, wrong interpretation about the catalyst, wrong interpretation about the ending etc... Legion of 1337, you only gave your opinion, you didn't make a critic. I don't say the trilogy is perfect, but the trilogy isn't what you see.


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#15
ImaginaryMatter

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Wrong reading about the trilogy, wrong interpretation about the catalyst, wrong interpretation about the ending etc... Legion of 1337, you only gave your opinion, you didn't make a critic. I don't say the trilogy is perfect, but the trilogy isn't what you see.

 

Maybe you're wrong?



#16
KaiserShep

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Wrong reading about the trilogy, wrong interpretation about the catalyst, wrong interpretation about the ending etc... Legion of 1337, you only gave your opinion, you didn't make a critic. I don't say the trilogy is perfect, but the trilogy isn't what you see.

Well that's like, your opinion, man.



#17
Legion of 1337

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Wrong reading about the trilogy, wrong interpretation about the catalyst, wrong interpretation about the ending etc... Legion of 1337, you only gave your opinion, you didn't make a critic. I don't say the trilogy is perfect, but the trilogy isn't what you see.

If you're going to claim that, you need to demonstrate why I'm wrong, not just claim that I am.



#18
Vazgen

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1. This is a gameplay-story segregation issue in ME1. In ME2, it's an illogical mis-prioritization.
The Cipher and Thorian are nto compariable to the Crucible. The Thorian has actualy been studied, we know how it works. THe only issue is how exactly it came to possess the Cipher - admittedly an open question. The Crucible is literally unexplainable - somehow, even though we dont' know how it works at all, we are able to construct it. This does not make sense. If you don't understand the instructions, if you don't understand the device you're constructing, you can't build it because you don't even know what you're tryign to build.
2.It's a cyborg. As already noted above, Soveriegn's dialogue doesn't make sense if he's not compeltely synthetic.
3.TIM is clearly indictrinated, and also has no proof that he can control the Reapers. All the characters, even up until the final confrontation with TIM (which happens right before the Catalyst encounter where Shepard suddenly stops opposing the idea for no reason), argue as to why Control, even if possible, is a bad idea. The sudden flip-flop change in this makes it seem like a random choice or out of character, because noone, including Shepard, entertained the idea until the Catalyst showed up. At all.

Point 1 was brought because of your statement that ME1 story was flawless. You say Thorian was studied, what do we know about it? "The knowledge of the Protheans" is quite similar to the Crucible. The schematics for the Crucible are likely a step-by-step instruction with a general outline of what the device is capable of (which Liara mentions after Mars). You don't need to know what exactly the device will do to build it. Delving into headcanon territory, I'd say that the scientists would've discovered the requirement of the Citadel and found the Catalyst all by themselves if given time. Alas, that was not the case.
2) What's your definition of cyborg? Sovereign has no limitations of organics, and its mind is clearly just an advanced AI. Organic material is simply collected and stored at its core. Imagine sentient truck carrying a dead cow.

3) TIM is indoctrinated, sure, but he has troops augmented with Reaper tech who listen only to TIM and are unwaveringly loyal to him while still being able to perform tactical maneuvers and using complex devices like Atlases, turrets, Citadel controls. Control is possible. Also, take Javik to Horizon.



#19
StarcloudSWG

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It's not a hippie communist ending. It's a hippie transhumanist "we're all Reapers now" ending.

 

Here's another piece of claptrap: The Catalyst claims that organics and synthetics cannot understand each other without Synthesis. This, despite millions of years turning organics INTO synthetics. If the Catalyst hasn't gotten an understanding of organics by now, the intentional Reaperfication of the galaxy is NOT going to succeed.

 

Evolution is a process, not a destination. The Reapers are a dead end on the evolutionary process.


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#20
ImaginaryMatter

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If you're going to claim that, you need to demonstrate why I'm wrong, not just claim that I am.

 

That's just what angol does. His posts usually follow the same structure of denouncing somebody of being wrong and not knowing what they're talking about followed by claims that the BioWare writers know exactly what they're doing. I don't remember him actually making an argument why any of this would be the case. Occasionally, he mentions that he has a literary degree or something, which is particularly risible because it seems limited to making arguments any basic internet denizen can make.

 

 

Here's another piece of claptrap: The Catalyst claims that organics and synthetics cannot understand each other without Synthesis. This, despite millions of years turning organics INTO synthetics. If the Catalyst hasn't gotten an understanding of organics by now, the intentional Reaperfication of the galaxy is NOT going to succeed.

 

Also, the Geth seemed to have a pretty good grasp on what organics were all about, at least better than some of the other organic races in the series. Since 'understanding' also didn't prevent organics and AI from doing some pretty horrifying things to each other, to me it seems questionable if Synthesis would actually do anything to stop conflict.



#21
Iakus

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It's not a hippie communist ending. It's a hippie transhumanist "we're all Reapers now" ending.

 

Here's another piece of claptrap: The Catalyst claims that organics and synthetics cannot understand each other without Synthesis. This, despite millions of years turning organics INTO synthetics. If the Catalyst hasn't gotten an understanding of organics by now, the intentional Reaperfication of the galaxy is NOT going to succeed.

 

Evolution is a process, not a destination. The Reapers are a dead end on the evolutionary process.

I'd go so far as to say understanding is not required.  Just the willingness to accept each other for who they are.



#22
tracesaint

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Despite having it's problems, I still don't care and play it more than any other game franchise to this day. I don't disagree with every point made, but some words used are too pointed and there is too much of an opinion written in to be a proper critique. Also, as Hillary Clinton once said, at this point, what does it really matter? I don't find the Normandy evac scene garbage, the Catalyst was fine, and ME2 was more about the characters you develop relationships with over being about the Reapers and Collectors anyway. It isn't bare bones if you look at it from that angle. The Collectors, Reapers, and Saren were all the same: They presented a threat that loomed, but were not what drove the story. I thought the introduction of the crucible could have been better disguised, and not be such an obvious plot device, but with how the Reapers were built up it was going to take something like that introduced to win anyway.



#23
Sonnington

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Very well written and objective analysis. I just finished the ME trilogy and going into this I was expecting much more consistent and coherent storyline. The first game was pretty good at explaining and setting up the game world. It was a bit dry and I expected, when the game was finished, that I was done with the introduction. Going into the second game and working for Cerberus and with an AI was seriously jolting. It was communicated to Shepard that he had no kill switch attached to the implants and EDI had no control over the ship at that point. There was no reason for Shepard not to go directly to the citadel and say, "Hey captain Anderson, lets retrofit the Normandy and take Ceberus spytech out. Including the dangerous as **** AI." The Alliance had just as much interest in stopping the collectors as Cerberus had. There's no excuse for Shepard to work for them.

 

While we're at dialogue choices, "Asari councilor, lets merge our minds so I can prove to you the Reapers are real and killed the Protheans. Also prove the Prothean VI I talked to on Ilium was real so there's no second guessing me anymore." Although, the idea that for 2-2.5 years researchers weren't flocking to Ilium with the huge, fully intact Prothean ruins and specifically researching the area around the conduit. Considering the conduit was some badass Mass Relay reconstruction. 

 

Sorry guys, we couldn't find that Prothean VI. We're apparently nuking that planet tomorrow too, never to be revisited again.

 

After getting that sort of shock start to ME 2 and middle finger to ME 1 continuity. Any problem I had with Saran's general character motivation fell apart when you start playing the mindfuck that is ME 2. There's too much to even get into that it's not worth it. It was essentially a second introduction. And it felt like they fired all their writers from ME 1 because the writerstyle itself sacrificed good continuity for story elements that are exciting and varied. 

 

I felt Mass Effect 3's pacing and gunplay was what Mass Effect 2 was going to be like when hearing about the game. Suffice to say the combat and the pacing were much better and much more atmospheric. The introduction and first few acts of ME 3 were very well done and were wrapping things up well. Then somewhere between Samara attempting to kill herself rather than ask to rescind her code like in ME 2. And Tali taking her face mask off on her homeworld. It fell back into an ME 2 sensationalism. 

 

The ending of ME 3 just doesn't make sense. The Citadel was established as Reaper tech in ME 1. The Reapers trained the Keepers and when it becomes time the Keepers turn on the Mass Relay, that is the Citadel, and the Reapers come in and kill everyone. So why exactly do the Reapers allow the Citadel to exist as a tool to their own destruction? There are dozens upon dozens of these types of questions. I'm not sure why these games were heralded as so great TBH. I've played through much better stories. The combat in the second was light by RPG or FPS standards. So it was basically reduced to a game pacing element. 

 

Overall the games were kinda fun, but they weren't anything special like people make them out to be.



#24
ImaginaryMatter

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Overall the games were kinda fun, but they weren't anything special like people make them out to be.

 

They're only really special in the genre kind of sense, in that the games -- well, ME1 at least -- are really the only space opera games out there. I think one of the things that bothered me as the series progressed as that it increasingly became a AAA cover based shooter which the market is already crowded with.



#25
AlanC9

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If you don't understand the instructions, if you don't understand the device you're constructing, you can't build it because you don't even know what you're tryign to build.

That's a bit overblown. You can build a compass without understanding magnetism. Just rub the lodestone the right way. It was pretty common in my science classes to build something and then look into why the thing worked. The problem comes in if you're trying to improve the design.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 octobre 2014 - 01:18 .