137 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Very well written and objective analysis. I just finished the ME trilogy and going into this I was expecting much more consistent and coherent storyline. The first game was pretty good at explaining and setting up the game world. It was a bit dry and I expected, when the game was finished, that I was done with the introduction. Going into the second game and working for Cerberus and with an AI was seriously jolting. It was communicated to Shepard that he had no kill switch attached to the implants and EDI had no control over the ship at that point. There was no reason for Shepard not to go directly to the citadel and say, "Hey captain Anderson, lets retrofit the Normandy and take Ceberus spytech out. Including the dangerous as **** AI." The Alliance had just as much interest in stopping the collectors as Cerberus had. There's no excuse for Shepard to work for them.

I think if shep did try to take the Normandy back to the Alliance right away, the entire crew that wasn't Joker and Chakwas (and possibly Ken and Gabby) probably would've thrown shep out the airlock. Also it's implied, on Cronos Station, that TIM had some kind of failsafe(s) in place that didn't work once EDI had freewill -- not control but freewill -- because when they tried she flooded their servers with seven zettabytes (sp?) of explicit images, most of which were Jeff's  

 

Also on Cronos Station, shep herself can say, "Every instinct I had told me not to trust Cerberus, but I needed them so I played along."  

[von uber]

Given you dock at the citadel to speak to Anderson that would have been the perfect time to do it.
And could have made for an interesting game with a join / not join with regards to cerberus.

[Sonnington]

I think if shep did try to take the Normandy back to the Alliance right away, the entire crew that wasn't Joker and Chakwas (and possibly Ken and Gabby) probably would've thrown shep out the airlock. Also it's implied, on Cronos Station, that TIM had some kind of failsafe(s) in place that didn't work once EDI had freewill -- not control but freewill -- because when they tried she flooded their servers with seven zettabytes (sp?) of explicit images, most of which were Jeff's

 

Also on Cronos Station, shep herself can say, "Every instinct I had told me not to trust Cerberus, but I needed them so I played along."  

 

Welp, there's no way around that. I guess. **** my history with the Alliance, I'm going to have to work for this illegal rogue black ops group who has resources that rival that of the Alliance. They have a replica Normandy and a Joker, how do I leave this sweet deal?

[Vazgen]

Regarding working with Cerberus, this is how it goes:
They bring you back from the dead and save your life (Miranda killing Wilson). After that TIM asks you to do one mission for them, after which you're free to walk away (Freedom's Progress). After that you're stuck, you already work for a terrorist organization, even if you go to the Citadel they can just frame you and show that you were the one behind colony attack. The option not to join Cerberus should've been present in the beginning, to shoot Miranda and take the shuttle for yourself. That's assuming that shuttle is capable of using mass relays which is doubtful (although may be possible).

[Sonnington]

Regarding working with Cerberus, this is how it goes:
They bring you back from the dead and save your life (Miranda killing Wilson). After that TIM asks you to do one mission for them, after which you're free to walk away (Freedom's Progress). After that you're stuck, you already work for a terrorist organization, even if you go to the Citadel they can just frame you and show that you were the one behind colony attack. The option not to join Cerberus should've been present in the beginning, to shoot Miranda and take the shuttle for yourself. That's assuming that shuttle is capable of using mass relays which is doubtful (although may be possible).

 

Commander Shepard can do anything he wants. He's a god damn Spectre. Not only is he a Spectre he saved the god damn galaxy from Saren and the Geth. I feel he has a little lee way in terms of morally acceptable actions.

 

As far as I remember though, you get the ship and can go anywhere with it immediately. And it's made clear TIM never put a kill switch on you.

[SporkFu]

Do you really think, at that time in the game, that Miranda and Jacob and the rest of the cerberus crew would have let shep just mutiny against TIM and take his multi-billion credit spaceship with him? Really?

TIM: How in the hell did you let this happen?
Jacob *salutes*: Sorry, Mr. Illusive Man, Sir, your Highness, but um... Well...
Miranda: Nobody's perfect?
TIM: Jacob if she says that again, ever, I want you to shoot her.
Jacob: Aye, aye, sir.
Miranda: Ulp.
Kelly: I tried to charm him, boss, but, well, you know... *cough* scale itch.
TIM: Fer chrissakes, Ms. Chambers, it's like you're proud of it or something.
Kelly *smiles prettily*
Miranda: Um, boss?
TIM: I'm not finished being mad with you yet, Ms. Lawson. What is it?
Miranda: I just wanted to point out that Shepard is a spectre.
Jacob: Spectre. Right. Good call, sweetbuns.
Miranda *kicks Jacob in the daddy-bags*
TIM *flinches*: You're right, Ms. Lawson. Shepard is a spectre.
Miranda: I mean, what could we do?
TIM *sigh*: Nothing, I suppose.
Miranda *mumbles*: Except implant a control chip...
TIM: What did you say?
Miranda *ahem*: Nothing.

[themikefest]

I had no problem with working with Cerberus. Alliance wasn't doing nothing. Anderson even says "its up to you to stop the reapers". He never cared about the colonists or finding a way to stop the reapers. Without Cerberus there would be no SR2, Shepard would not of been brought back to life and this cycle would be harvested

[Sonnington]

I had no problem with working with Cerberus. Alliance wasn't doing nothing. Anderson even says "its up to you to stop the reapers". He never cared about the colonists or finding a way to stop the reapers. Without Cerberus there would be no SR2, Shepard would not of been brought back to life and this cycle would be harvested

 

That's untrue, the Alliance were investigating the Collectors the same as Cerberus was. That's why Ashley was on the outpost that got hit by the Collectors. She was preemptively setting up defenses to fight the collectors. Anderson says, "I can't tell you what Ashley's doing, you're working for Cerberus." In ME 3, James talks about how he fought the collectors in order to secure information for the Alliance.  It's well established the Alliance is working towards the same goal to defeat the collectors.

 

Whether working for Ceberus was good or evil is regardless of the point Shepard had no good reason to work for Cerberus. It's quite clearly shown through the first game Shepard is an Alliance officer and disapproves of Cerberus' actions. Hell, it ties into his possible sole-survivor back story. At worst Cerberus is this super well funded terrorist mercenary group that killed everyone in your squad in front of you. Then tortured the survivors for years, like Toombs. To the best being Shepard knowing it's a shady prohuman terrorist organization that kills civilians and attacks the alliance. There's simply no way Shepard would allow himself to work with Cerberus, the idea is silly and jarring.

[themikefest]

And it was Shepard working with Cerberus that defeated the collectors and not the Alliance.

 

As I say, I have no problem with my Shepard working with Cerberus. She has no use for the Alliance who turn thier backs on the galaxy and Shepard by not finding a way to stop the reapers. As soon as Anderson said its up to you to stop the reapers, it told me he didn't care. Too bad femshep couldn't shoot the clown for making that statement.

[Vazgen]

Commander Shepard can do anything he wants. He's a god damn Spectre. Not only is he a Spectre he saved the god damn galaxy from Saren and the Geth. I feel he has a little lee way in terms of morally acceptable actions.

 

As far as I remember though, you get the ship and can go anywhere with it immediately. And it's made clear TIM never put a kill switch on you.

Correction, he's no longer a Spectre after his death. And as you can see in the game, Council is quite reluctant to reinstate you due to your connection to Cerberus.

 

You have to do Freedom's Progress to get the ship. After that, imagine coming to Council instead of working with Cerberus.

"Commander, do you have something to do with Freedom's Progress incident?"

"No, the Collectors did it"

"Really? Then how do you explain this footage from security cameras where you shoot security mechs?"

[SporkFu]

Correction, he's no longer a Spectre after his death. And as you can see in the game, Council is quite reluctant to reinstate you due to your connection to Cerberus.

 

You have to do Freedom's Progress to get the ship. After that, imagine coming to Council instead of working with Cerberus.

"Commander, do you have something to do with Freedom's Progress incident?"

"No, the Collectors did it"

"Really? Then how do you explain this footage from security cameras where you shoot security mechs?"

Heh, while I could definitely see the council being that obtuse, even they would have a hard time dismissing Veetor's security cam footage of the collectors abducting the colonists. I think the problem with the council is, like everything else that happens in the trilogy, they would regard it as a 'human' problem. Besides, the abductions all happen outside council space. 

[themikefest]

Heh, while I could definitely see the council being that obtuse, even they would have a hard time dismissing Veetor's security cam footage of the collectors abducting the colonists. I think the problem with the council is, like everything else that happens in the trilogy, they would regard it as a 'human' problem. Besides, the abductions all happen outside council space. 

They were able to believe the audio file from Tali, I don't see why they would ignore video footage.

[Vazgen]

Heh, while I could definitely see the council being that obtuse, even they would have a hard time dismissing Veetor's security cam footage of the collectors abducting the colonists. I think the problem with the council is, like everything else that happens in the trilogy, they would regard it as a 'human' problem. Besides, the abductions all happen outside council space. 

That's assuming they get the footage. What if it's conveniently erased... Udina managed to fabricate a video of Shepard killing the councilor in a few minutes, Cerberus can surely do it.

[SporkFu]

That's assuming they get the footage. What if it's conveniently erased... Udina managed to fabricate a video of Shepard killing the councilor in a few minutes, Cerberus can surely do it.

The quarians would have their own copy of the data. Shep would just call up her old buddy Tali, who would likely be more than happy to help now that shep is no longer working for Cerberus. 

[Vazgen]

The quarians would have their own copy of the data. Shep would just call up her old buddy Tali, who would likely be more than happy to help now that shep is no longer working for Cerberus. 

They may or may not have it. I haven't seen them taking copies and they won't get Veetor to testify, considering his state. Will you be willing to put your faith in the hands of the Council and the Alliance when there is no evidence you know of, that can clear your name? And you did work for Cerberus, even if it was one mission.

[Iakus]

The quarians would have their own copy of the data. Shep would just call up her old buddy Tali, who would likely be more than happy to help now that shep is no longer working for Cerberus. 

Bah, if that could happen, ME2 would have been dramatically shorter:

Scene: Horizon

 

Shepard:  Ashley!  Thank goodness you're alright!  Listen, Cerberus isn't snatching colonists, the Collectors are.  Find Tali, she can veri...

Bioware:  *Assuming direct control*

Shepard:  Hey Ash.  long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times.

[SporkFu]

They may or may not have it. I haven't seen them taking copies and they won't get Veetor to testify, considering his state. Will you be willing to put your faith in the hands of the Council and the Alliance when there is no evidence you know of, that can clear your name? And you did work for Cerberus, even if it was one mission.

I dunno, Veetor had the original data to begin with, and unless your shep is a cruel soulless b*****d, the kind who would push unsuspecting mercs through windows... errr, *cough* nevermind... he'll let Tali take Veetor back to the Flotilla. In doing so, she says (something like), "you can have the data." ... which would be a copy, I mean, come on   ... As for working for Cerberus for one mission...

 

shep: Hey I was dead for two years. Sure Cerberus were the ones who brought me back, but I returned here as quick as I could. And look, I even replaced the spaceship I lost with a new and improved model.

Councilors: Oooh, shiny!

shep: Sooo... can we, uh, cancel that freeze on my wages? I mean, it's not like I have to pay you back for the SR1 anymore, right? 

Udina: We can discuss that later. 

 

Besides, I don't think the council is gonna give a rat's ass about a handful of security 'mechs that were destroyed on a human colony, that no longer exists, out in the Terminus systems, where they have no jurisdiction. 

 

Bah, if that could happen, ME2 would have been dramatically shorter:

Scene: Horizon

 

Shepard:  Ashley!  Thank goodness you're alright!  Listen, Cerberus isn't snatching colonists, the Collectors are.  Find Tali, she can veri...

Bioware:  *Assuming direct control*

Shepard:  Hey Ash.  long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times.

Didn't shep try to tell ashley that the collectors were working for the reapers, and she was the one who replied with, "Blah blah blah, you're with Cerberus, you bad bad bad person." ?  

[Vazgen]

You can have the data - means the data on the colony. They don't have any recordings or such, they only debrief Veetor and see what else he can tell. To quote TIM

"The quarians forwarded their findings from Veetor's debriefing. No new data..."

 

As for security mechs it's not about property damage. It's Shepard getting there faster than official response and destroy planet security mechs that try to stop him. Quite suspicious, if you ask me...

[SporkFu]

You can have the data - means the data on the colony. They don't have any recordings or such, they only debrief Veetor and see what else he can tell. To quote TIM
"The quarians forwarded their findings from Veetor's debriefing. No new data..."

The security can footage isn't new data by then. Besides Veetor's other data would be enough -- one would think -- to convince the council of the collector threat, if Tali's audio recording of a couple lines from Saren and Benezia was 'irrefutable evidence' of his guilt.

[Vazgen]

The security can footage isn't new data by then. Besides Veetor's other data would be enough -- one would think -- to convince the council of the collector threat, if Tali's audio recording of a couple lines from Saren and Benezia was 'irrefutable evidence' of his guilt.

Tali had a recording. Veetor is just "one traumatized dockworker"

Tali says: "you're welcome to take Veetor's omni-tool data"

Veetor says: "I studied them. The monsters, the swarms. I recorded them with my omni-tool. Lots of readings. Electro-magnetic. Dark energy."

The data is a study of the Collectors, not a video footage of their attack on the colony (the last part of his line).

[KaiserShep]

Tali had a recording. Veetor is just "one traumatized dockworker"

 

It's 'cause he's a quarian, just like that dockworker was human.

 

Shepard: If he was a turian or asari, you'd believe his eyewitness account!

 

Councilor Valern: And salarian?

 

Shepard: Eh...I don't think so.

[ImaginaryMatter]

And it was Shepard working with Cerberus that defeated the collectors and not the Alliance.

 

As I say, I have no problem with my Shepard working with Cerberus. She has no use for the Alliance who turn thier backs on the galaxy and Shepard by not finding a way to stop the reapers. As soon as Anderson said its up to you to stop the reapers, it told me he didn't care. Too bad femshep couldn't shoot the clown for making that statement.

 

The Collectors though were never a threat, they could attack the colonies sure, but they could never mount any kind of real assault on the interior worlds. Also considering Shepard was the one who enabled TIM to go and get himself Indoctrinated which almost foiled the entire war effort it probably would have been better if Shepard just stayed dead.

[SporkFu]

Tali had a recording. Veetor is just "one traumatized dockworker"

Tali says: "you're welcome to take Veetor's omni-tool data"

Veetor says: "I studied them. The monsters, the swarms. I recorded them with my omni-tool. Lots of readings. Electro-magnetic. Dark energy."

The data is a study of the Collectors, not a video footage of their attack on the colony (the last part of his line).

All that data -- electro-magnetic and dark energy readings -- is a lot more evidence than the testimony of one traumatized dock-worker too, though.  

[themikefest]

The Collectors though were never a threat, they could attack the colonies sure, but they could never mount any kind of real assault on the interior worlds. Also considering Shepard was the one who enabled TIM to go and get himself Indoctrinated which almost foiled the entire war effort it probably would have been better if Shepard just stayed dead.

With Shepard dead, the cycle continues.

[Vazgen]

All that data -- electro-magnetic and dark energy readings -- is a lot more evidence than the testimony of one traumatized dock-worker too, though.

The data is a proof of Collectors existing, information on their technology and physiology. It doesn't clear Shepard's name. Let's assume however, that it is proven that the Collectors attacked Freedom's Progress. How Shepard is going to prove that it was not he who tipped them off? The evidence suggests otherwise (Udina quote, couldn't resist ) - he lands on the colony before any official investigators, he fights colony's security mechs, he was there as a Cerberus agent. Too many coincidences.

Remember what Ash said on Horizon? "What if they're behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?" (which is actually proven true, since it's TIM who gets them on Horizon in the first place) 

Another Ash line: "Alliance intel said Cerberus could be behind our missing colonies". Connect it with the evidence from Freedom's Progress - Shepard has something to do with it. They will hold him on trial, under arrest, until it'll be too late. And the Collectors will continue to abduct humans from the colonies, create their hurrdurr Reaper and have Reapers just bomb Earth from orbit without bothering to harvest